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The Zeitgeist Movement

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The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 22 Aug 2010, 21:53:39

I was playing chess at a local coffee shop last night when someone at another table started talking about The Zeitgeist Movement. I lost the game because I couldn't help being distracted by the what the guy was talking about. So today, I looked it up and found a synopsis on Huffington Post.

The Zeitgeist Movement: Envisioning A Sustainable Future
So what exactly is The Zeitgeist Movement? Not even two years old, the movement declares itself as the activist arm of The Venus Project, an organization started in the 1970s by Fresco and his partner, Roxanne Meadows. The Venus Project distributes resources promoting Fresco's vision of an improved society, with the main component being a resource-based economy, rather than a monetary-based one. In Fresco's resource-based economy, the world's resources would be considered as the equal inheritance of all the world's peoples, and would be managed as efficiently and carefully as possible through focusing on the technological potential of sustainable development. It is toward this idea that The Zeitgeist Movement works to educate and inform people.

The movement's founder, Peter Joseph, came to notoriety with his 2007 internet film sensation, Zeitgeist, and it's 2008 successor, Zeitgeist: Addendum. While many people may find it hard to digest the idea of a world without currency, Joseph's argument that our economic system is the source of our greatest social problems was supported with valuable evidence.

From the maximization of resources and efficiency of automated labor, Fresco imagines a world of abundance, where everything is available to everyone. As idealistic as this may sound, keep in mind that there is currently enough food to feed everyone in the world, but not enough money to pay for it. One billion people (one-sixth of the world) are starving, yet American's throw out approximately 40% of their purchased food. Fresco says that in a world where everything is supplied, the majority of today's crimes would be non-existent, as they are primarily related to obtaining money and property, or born of social inequality. The crimes that still exist would be considered symptomatic of mental aberration, and these people would be given treatment and help, not punished, as no prisons would exist. People would be rewarded with an incentive system for contributions based on social relevance.

Celebrating his 94th birthday, Fresco was lively and animated as he guided the audience through a visual presentation of his conceptual ideas and models for sustainable technology. Wowing the crowd with images that seemed of science fiction, the audience was assured that nothing was unrealistic about his designs, and if science and technology were focused on progress instead of consumption, they would all be easily realized.


Check out The Zeitgeist Movement's website: I've been reading over Designing The Future (pdf).

Seems unrealistic to me, but it's a good topic to post. I looked it up on Wikipedia too and found these main points:

Concepts advocated by the Zeitgeist Movement
  • The main concept advocated by the Zeitgeist Movement is that all the worlds resources, from needs such as food and shelter to desires such as vacations and cars should be the common heritage of all the worlds people.
  • The entire human race is corrupt to one degree or another, and our system of ethics, which is seen as evil, leads to aberrant behavior.[3]
  • The solutions to the world's problem's will not come about through logic or reason.[4]
  • The current social order should be replaced with a military dictatorship, which will change culture and remove deviant and socially offensive behavior.[4]
  • No Money/Barter or Trade: Money creates established institutions that are forced to protect themselves which inhibits progress. The fractional reserve system, usury/interest, and credit are all functions of this flawed system that creates debt, leading to the need for employment, for the purpose of paying off debts. A process known as 'cyclical consumption.(Zeitgeist Movement Orientation Guide, Page 7)
  • Automation: automation is more productive than human labor and frees mankind from repetitive and tedious tasks.
  • Artificial intelligence: machines are needed to make decisions objectively, unlike humans who are susceptible to personal projections, desires or bias. Machines are also needed to store and retrieve information because humans have a limited capacity for memory.
  • Technological unification of the globe: globally shared technology is required to monitor planetary resources in real time, and make the most efficient use of them in solving planetary problems.
  • Scientific methodology: planetary government is obligated to methodology not individuals. Governing decisions are arrived at through scientific method, not belief.
  • No property: property is wasteful and unsustainable. It is done away with in favor of a system of universal access, which will be made possible through abundance of goods and services, thus eliminating the need for ownership.
  • Sustainable City Systems: unified systems approach. Systems theory and a systemic approach for a self-sustaining globe and culture can be modeled on a smaller scale with a city-size system.

Sounds like Automated Communism to me - instead of all that Marxist analysis of Labor and Capital, this guy's vision is that machines will be doing all the labor and so that part of the old Communist argument, ie. "Workers of the world UNITE!", has been completely dropped. I talked briefly to the guy at the coffee shop and told him as much. He assured me that The Zeitgeist Movement was not Communism. I'm pretty sure it would be possible to control an economy using supercomputers though.

The last paragraph of the HP article summed it up well:
The members of The Zeitgeist Movement seem to face an intimidating wall of those who decree their goals as unattainable. But with 250 international chapters forming in just one year and the membership count rapidly growing, it's undeniable that many easily identify with the message. The evidence shows that our current system is leading us on a collision course; our present model of society cannot sustain itself. While some deny this, others ignore it, and there are those who still try to profit off of it. The Zeitgeist Movement highlights that there are individuals who believe in a sustainable future where humanity is not united by religious or political ideology, but by the scientific method, venerated as the savior that can develop a system of human equality, thriving from the cooperation and balance of technology and nature.


Honest to god, this is the first I've heard of it.
Carlhole
 

Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 22 Aug 2010, 23:30:02

From "Designing The Future"

YOUR CHALLENGE
The future does not just happen. Except for natural events like earthquakes, it comes about through the efforts of people and is determined largely by how well informed people are. You can play a role in the shaping of tomorrow’s world by asking yourself questions like, “What kind of world do I want to live in?” and “What does democracy mean to me?” There are many other options of organization for the future than those typically discussed today.

Here is a scenario for you to consider: Suppose you were called upon to redesign planetary civilization without any limitations based on how things are done today. The goal is to help rid the world of war, poverty, hunger, and environmental degradation, and to create the best world for all inhabitants, given the resources at hand, for the longest period of time. Remember, you are free to rearrange society in any way you think will work. The only limitation is that your social design must factor in the carrying capacity of the planet, which means the resources have to be sufficient to support life on the planet. You can rearrange the entire civilization to make what you consider the best of all possible worlds, bearing in mind that any unmet need for any segment of the population reduces the standard of living for all. This may include not only environmental protection, but also city design, transportation, interpersonal relationships and the restructuring of education, if you feel it is necessary.

The options are limitless. Would you have separate nations? Would you have an international advisory board? How would you manage and distribute the resources of the world to accommodate the needs of all? Would you use the scientific method to make decisions, or rely on politics or mysticism? How would you handle differences in religious beliefs? You may even consider another system of distribution that doesn’t use money as a medium of exchange. On a personal basis, would you seek a position of advantage over others? Would you claim a bigger house, a more luxurious car, or high-definition TV? On what basis would you say you deserve these things? Or that others don’t deserve them? Your skill level? Your investment of time and/or money?

Remember, if you force any predetermined set of values on other nations, or others in your own nation or neighborhood for that matter, you will generate bad feelings. How would you prevent political corruption? Would you declare universal laws and treaties? Would you use military and police methods for enforcement? Would you declare all resources the common heritage of all nations? In order to accomplish this task one must be free of bias and nationalism, and reflect those qualities in the design of policies. How would you approach that? This is a difficult project requiring input from many disciplines. These are some of the problems we must consider when thinking about such a task. It can be a fresh approach, unburdened by past or traditional considerations, religious or otherwise, but always keeping in mind for whom this society is to be designed. Feel free to transcend present realities and reach out for new and creative ideas.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby diemos » Sun 22 Aug 2010, 23:32:47

The eternal problem. It would be so easy to turn the world into a paradise.

If only human beings weren't human.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Oakley » Sun 22 Aug 2010, 23:47:56

Since there is plenty of food to go around, then there is no need for me to work up a sweat producing any for myself or to sell into the market for money. Just send me what I need which I will enjoy retired from any further labor to take care of myself.

Schedule my free 2011 trip to Disneyworld the week of February 6th through February 12, 2011, and make those plane reservation first class please, and I would like a resort view room in the Dolphin Hotel. I presume I just walk into the park restaurants and they will feed me as I am entitled to be fed by virtue of being a human being in a world where there is enough food to go around.

Just to make sure that I can get what I am entitled to under this Zeitgeist system, all the rest of you keep working hard so that production will stay at high enough levels to maintain me.
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence" Thomas H Huxley
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 00:36:19

Chapter Five

From one System to Another

The Transition - Signs of the Times


...A number of scientists claim that by the year 2030, there will be a drastic shortage of easily extracted oil. Oil may not run out, but it may become monetarily and then physically impractical to extract it. Eventually, it will require more energy to drill for it and refine it than is practical. It is likely the same will happen with natural gas, only more rapidly.

These developments will create tremendous social and environmental disruptions as businesses scramble to protect their profit margins and exploit more of the earth’s land, water, and natural resources. It may take
the failure of the debt/money system for the majority of people to loose confidence in it. Then they can examine seriously how a global resource based-economy would operate, and envision what life would be like in
such a society. In the chapters that follow, we will glimpse the processes involved in adapting ourselves to this new way of life
.

I just can't stand it when authors mistakenly use 'loose' for 'lose'.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby americandream » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 00:46:12

Leaving aside the grammatical error, that passage captures the essence of objective dialectics. Adaptation within a material construct.

Carlhole wrote:
Chapter Five

From one System to Another

The Transition - Signs of the Times


...A number of scientists claim that by the year 2030, there will be a drastic shortage of easily extracted oil. Oil may not run out, but it may become monetarily and then physically impractical to extract it. Eventually, it will require more energy to drill for it and refine it than is practical. It is likely the same will happen with natural gas, only more rapidly.

These developments will create tremendous social and environmental disruptions as businesses scramble to protect their profit margins and exploit more of the earth’s land, water, and natural resources. It may take
the failure of the debt/money system for the majority of people to loose confidence in it. Then they can examine seriously how a global resource based-economy would operate, and envision what life would be like in
such a society. In the chapters that follow, we will glimpse the processes involved in adapting ourselves to this new way of life
.

I just can't stand it when authors mistakenly use 'loose' for 'lose'.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 01:07:40

americandream wrote:Leaving aside the grammatical error, that passage captures the essence of objective dialectics. Adaptation within a material construct.


You ought to take over this thread really, AD.

I mean, you're the resident commie, ain'tcha?

"Designing The Future" seems something like a Manifesto. The difference between classic Communism and this philosophy appears to be simply the addition of Techno-Utopianism (as the doomers on the board would say it), where instead of laboring masses of people, labor-saving machines take over whenever feasible. Also, there seems to be an emphasis on sophisticated materials. The over-arching theme is Sustainability.

I still don't see how this egalitarian system provides incentives and motivation. But I haven't read the whole thing yet.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby americandream » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 06:32:22

Subjectivity is rather tedious at times but here I go.

The essence of a dialectical approach to material systems is its objectivity.

Whether systemic change results in a materialist order driven by principles that have as their logical outcome, an egalitarian configuration, or whether they lead us into some technotopian paradigm of endless growth are issues that lie beyond the frontier of these objective forces, But that change will be determined by our material conditions and that change will be dispassionate irrespective of how passionately we may cling to this or that theory or way of life.

Going further however and beyond that frontier, I have yet to find an argument that sufficiently makes the case for a perpetual growth premised as it is on ever widening profit margins. Much wishful thinking that fantasises a big brain or Xmas style largesse fashioned out of the ether, yes, sustainable greed, no.

Carlhole wrote:
americandream wrote:Leaving aside the grammatical error, that passage captures the essence of objective dialectics. Adaptation within a material construct.


You ought to take over this thread really, AD.

I mean, you're the resident commie, ain'tcha?

"Designing The Future" seems something like a Manifesto. The difference between classic Communism and this philosophy appears to be simply the addition of Techno-Utopianism (as the doomers on the board would say it), where instead of laboring masses of people, labor-saving machines take over whenever feasible. Also, there seems to be an emphasis on sophisticated materials. The over-arching theme is Sustainability.

I still don't see how this egalitarian system provides incentives and motivation. But I haven't read the whole thing yet.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 07:56:34

Well, I read over "Designing The Future" and even I don't think there's anything there except vapor.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby WurmD » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 10:51:52

Carlhole wrote:I still don't see how this egalitarian system provides incentives and motivation. But I haven't read the whole thing yet.


Did you find it? :)
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 11:26:09

The problem I have with some of these "redesigning society" schemes is that they don't allow for an incremental approach - they seem to require a magic moment at which the entire society transforms at once - something which has never happened in the history of humanity. For a scheme to actually work it must allow for individuals and communities to make incremental changes on a household and local level. Otherwise everyone will simply sit around waiting for a magic moment which will never come.

Does the Zeitgeist Movement allow for change on an individual and community level? Are the founders and followers making changes to their actual lives, or are they merely writing manifestos?


This is my own personal way of evaluating schemes - are the proponents actually implementing new ideas and techniques in their own real lives, or are they only talking and dreaming about them?

As Pops says - "Make a plan and work it." Is the Zeitgeist Movement a plan which is actually being worked?
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 11:33:38

WurmD wrote:
Carlhole wrote:I still don't see how this egalitarian system provides incentives and motivation. But I haven't read the whole thing yet.


Did you find it? :)


No. It was a very thin treatment of a huge subject.

Supposedly the Zeitgeist Movement has chapters all over the world and 400,000 members. Maybe I didn't read the right thing, I dunno.

That old Communist aphorism, "To each according to his need, from each according to his ability" just doesn't accord with human nature. It was the main criticism of the ideology. I figured incentives would be addressed right away, but it wasn't.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 14:14:45

Oakley wrote:Schedule my free 2011 trip to Disneyworld the week of February 6th through February 12, 2011, and make those plane reservation first class please, and I would like a resort view room in the Dolphin Hotel. I presume I just walk into the park restaurants and they will feed me as I am entitled to be fed by virtue of being a human being in a world where there is enough food to go around.

Whoa, buddy, the idea is "the world's resources would be considered as the equal inheritance of all the world's peoples".

You'd be using up your share in a week at that rate.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby yeahbut » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 15:57:45

Concepts advocated by the Zeitgeist Movement

* The current social order should be replaced with a military dictatorship, which will change culture and remove deviant and socially offensive behavior.


Yeah, that should do it. That approach has always worked so well in the past :roll: We'll leave it up to the dictatorship to decide who is a deviant and socially offensive, they will know best. Maybe it will be artists and intellectuals, maybe teachers and scientists, maybe people who look a bit different from good, decent folk. Who knows for sure? We'll let the quirks and obsessions of the guy that runs the military dictatorship decide those pesky little details. Hey, we could call it a "cultural revolution"! And the glorious day when the new system begins, well, we could call that "year zero"! I wouldn't be at all surprised if it lasted a thousand years. This is going to be neat.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 16:38:48

I suppose some people could decide to implement a military dictatorship on the local scale. I doubt it would be very successful, though. Nearby communities would tend to object, not to mention the state and national governments having a dim view of such activities.

Not a viable plan, in my opinion.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby deMolay » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 20:17:01

Hi Carl were did you find this guy. Drinking bathwater at the UN. Ort a flackcatcher for Mammy Obammy.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby americandream » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 20:38:04

Once upon a time, it was in our nature to summarily partake of the neighbour or his wife. Alas, we have since moved on. It was also in our nature to clubs virgins during particularly auspicious phases in the sun's cycle. That is also a distant memeory.

Incredibly, I suspect the pre-occupation with self will go the same way, as incredible as the demise of virgin clubbing must have seemed to the sun worshippers.

Carlhole wrote:
WurmD wrote:
Carlhole wrote:I still don't see how this egalitarian system provides incentives and motivation. But I haven't read the whole thing yet.


Did you find it? :)


No. It was a very thin treatment of a huge subject.

Supposedly the Zeitgeist Movement has chapters all over the world and 400,000 members. Maybe I didn't read the right thing, I dunno.

That old Communist aphorism, "To each according to his need, from each according to his ability" just doesn't accord with human nature. It was the main criticism of the ideology. I figured incentives would be addressed right away, but it wasn't.
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby RichardS » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 22:35:19

Concepts advocated by the Zeitgeist Movement

* The current social order should be replaced with a military dictatorship, which will change culture and remove deviant and socially offensive behavior.

As a member of the Zeitgeist Movement I can assure anyone reading this blog that this is not a concept advocated by the movement and I challenge Carlhole to post a link to a webpage connected to the global chapter website where it is listed. Aside from this glaring mistake posted by Carlhole most of the rest of the information he references is accurate.
Please reference the main site before making any final judgments

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joo ... ?Itemid=50
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Re: The Zeitgeist Movement

Unread postby Carlhole » Tue 24 Aug 2010, 00:22:02

RichardS wrote:Concepts advocated by the Zeitgeist Movement

* The current social order should be replaced with a military dictatorship, which will change culture and remove deviant and socially offensive behavior.

As a member of the Zeitgeist Movement I can assure anyone reading this blog that this is not a concept advocated by the movement and I challenge Carlhole to post a link to a webpage connected to the global chapter website where it is listed. Aside from this glaring mistake posted by Carlhole most of the rest of the information he references is accurate.
Please reference the main site before making any final judgments

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joo ... ?Itemid=50


That was from Wikipedia. Didn't I note that?
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