[Ache]

As the warm glow of college commencement ceremonies gives way to the cold reality of today's job market, this year's graduates and their anxious parents might be tempted to wonder whether it was worth it.

After spending tens of thousands of dollars on higher education, often taking on huge debts along the way, many face a job market that doesn't seem to need them. Not only is the American economy producing few new jobs of any kind, but the ones that are being added are overwhelmingly on the lower end of the skill and pay scale.

In fact, government surveys indicate that the vast majority of job gains this year have gone to workers with only a high school education or less, casting some doubt on one of the nation's most deeply held convictions: that a college education is the ticket to the American Dream.

http://www.latimes.com/sns-pfinance-job ... 0297.story

[Xenophobe]

In fact, government surveys indicate that the vast majority of job gains this year have gone to workers with only a high school education or less, casting some doubt on one of the nation's most deeply held convictions: that a college education is the ticket to the American Dream.

http://www.latimes.com/sns-pfinance-job ... 0297.story

I am of the opinion that a college degree is still worth it, but it matters much more now than it did in the good years what it is in, and where you got it.

[Keith_McClary]

If You Thought the Housing Bubble Was Bad… By Mark J. Perry

chart illustrates a much, much bigger bubble than the real estate bubble—the “higher education bubble”—based on an annual comparison of consumer prices, median new home prices, and the Consumer Price Index series for “College Tuition and Fees”

[Pretorian]

Education as it is in modern world is nothing but a scam in order to keep young people out of job market for as long as possible, and to provide legions with work. Do you seriously need 16 years worth of study to browse facebook and hang on forums, or whatever else that you do at work.

[Comp_Lex]

That's a huge offense for people who are actually very capable at using their knowledge in order to do something cool for people.

I've got a CS degree and people tend to listen to me when I show my PO software to them. They see me as an authority on the subject (i.e. I'm the "local expert").

[Ayoob]

No.

[pup55]

A college degree is "worth it" if the economic value of the productivity increase that you get by going to college is greater than the cost of the college..

Examples: $160,000 of college to go to medical school: worth it.
$100,000 to be an art history major: not worth it.
$100,000 to become a school teacher: not worth it (unfortunately because we need good teachers)
$100,000 to go to college, meet some nice young fellow, and get your MRS degree: definitely not a good reason to get into the system but quite common nevertheless. Might be worth it depending on the fellow.
$7500 to get certified as a motorcycle mechanic: worth it (vs. flipping burgers)
$10,000 to be certified as a solar panel installer: Might be worth it.

If you have to incur debt to do any of the above, that ought to go into the economic equation: Subtract the debt payments from your earnings after you get finished and see if your increased salary justifies the expense of going to college.

There are obviously cheaper alternatives to the above: A couple of years of community college before you transfer to the football factory: Brilliance. It's half the cost, you can live at home (living expenses need to be factored in to the calculation) and a lot of those kids get part time jobs which teaches them something. Going to the Football Factory instead of Harvard? Another decision that has to be made on its potential economic value throughout your career. Working full time and going to school nights at the local commuter college? Here we have a possible winner. Takes you longer to get your degree but you appreciate it more, are in with more serious students, and in all probability you do not have the debt.

Taking on a lot of debt, spending your evenings and weekends wasted, flunking out: Quite common, probably not a good way to get a start on life, particularly if mom and dad took out a HELOC to pay for it.

It's a pretty easy calculation, actually, if you've been to college. Unfortunately they ought to be teaching you how to do it in high school.... They ought to be teaching you something, period, in high school. I think that's even more of a problem....

[efarmer]

Great post Pup. I designed equipment that simulated arc, tig, and mig, welding with an interface sort of like a Wii in the early 1990's. It was for teaching the hand motions and dynamics without having to use the machines and materials or incur the danger of the process for young people. They almost all sold in Europe where kids in middle school branch toward the trades and begin serious training. I realized that capturing people who were oriented that way before the malaise of their middle and later teens was closer to what the old apprentice system accomplished before our formal K-12 was instituted. It is the process of creating craftsmen (craftswomen too).

We have a lot of folks wanting to be videographers, car stereo experts, etc. and we have an excellent higher education system for the inclined minds or for those who have or can borrow the bucks to steep in the system past high school to see if something strikes their fancy, and we have raised the criteria bar where you need a college degree to have a living wage.

We have shifted to educating world class consumers to service world class consumers at a time when being world class consumers has overshot the resource levels required to enable such folly.

[Pops]

I didn't go to college, in fact if high school hadn't been easy I probably wouldn't have finished it. I was lucky and did OK while bouncing from one thing to the next as I took an interest. At one point (my early 30's?) a pastor I met offered to help me return to school to obtain a degree in architecture. I had a family and a fairly decent job by then and a WAG calculation suggested I wouldn't catch up income-wise till I was in my 50's - about now - and I decided against taking his generous offer. Of course today, architectural billings are in the toilet and may not return any time soon....

Still I've always regretted not getting more education, a self image thing I guess.

My opinion, for what it's worth, has more to do with growing up and being happy than making money:
Go to community college for all the reasons Pup mentioned plus the opportunity to take some overview courses to see what you might truly be interested in pursuing.
Mess around out in the world doing things that interest you (aside from the hormonal that is).
Try to keep your options open: no loans, no degree just to have one, go slow on building a family.

OK, gotta go dig a ditch now.

[PrestonSturges]

It was worth it just for the sex.

[pup55]

I didn't go to college, in fact if high school hadn't been easy I probably wouldn't have finished it.

It's interesting, out here in suburbia, it is considered part of the "package" so to speak, that your kid goes to college, particularly if you went to college.... I am speaking now as the adult parental unit of one of the young people.... it's not so much a reflection on the kid as it is the parent, and it is not at all unheard of for the parents to go to great lengths to get their kid through high school and even college by doing their homework for them, getting expensive tutors for them, and bailing them out of jail if needed to avoid them dropping out.

If only the parents would let the kid decide, like you did, that enough is enough, and trust that the kid is industrious enough to figure out for him or herself whether they ought to spend four years of their lives in college vs. the military or the peace corps or some other worthwhile activity.

But, the modern hover parents do not let their kids decide, and this causes a lot of problems, including a lot of kids staying in school that have no business being there, a lot of grade inflation as they go in and plead with the teachers to pass them, a lot of kids that are completely disinterested getting into the world with no sense of self-starting whatsoever, and a lot of other problems.... and it is more fear on the part of the parent as to how they will be regarded in the neighborhood if their kid decides to screw off college and go be a plumber someplace.....Plumber is good, by the way...

But the system as it now is has developed a permanent class of decadent youth, I am thinking boys mostly but some girls, with no motivation to do anything except sit around home and let Mom and Dad do all the work.

[Pops]

It's interesting, out here in suburbia, it is considered part of the "package" so to speak, that your kid goes to college, particularly if you went to college....

Actually I was the high achiever in my immediate family but you really hit the nail, it is a lot about family.

I prodded (but didn't push) my kids to go to college - and their answer?

You did all right.

[Pretorian]

That's a huge offense for people who are actually very capable at using their knowledge in order to do something cool for people.

I've got a CS degree and people tend to listen to me when I show my PO software to them. They see me as an authority on the subject (i.e. I'm the "local expert").

here is another example of wasted 15-16 years. "Computer Science" sounds so ridiculous it has to be abbreviated to "CS". I know a lot of people who work in IT , some making 6 figures , and whatever skills they needed they picked up by themselves on the go, through reading /whatever..Their education got absolutely nothing in common with computers, it gave them nothing useful for their employment ( many knew how to read before they went to school). So what did they get out of it? I mean 15 years of life in the grinder is not a joke.

[pup55]

Well, there is one thing, and that is, a college degree represents that you are capable of putting up with a certain level of BS in your life....for at least four years.

There were people that I went to school with that were BS-intolerant, if you know what I mean, if you set up a rule, they would try to break it. If there was a procedure for something, they would do the opposite....

College, the way it is right now, naturally weeds a lot of those people out. If you cannot figure out how to go to the administration building, register for the right classes, figure out how to competently schedule your major, get your bill paid, get the right books, show up for class often enough to pass it, and spew back a lot of the "wisdom" that the prof gives to you, you pretty much cannot function in some of these jobs no matter how bright you are because you do not conform to boundaries...

Someone please can and should make the argument that those boundary breakers are exactly the people that make the world interesting. A lot of prospective employers do not want interesting people around, they want people who will fit in, not park in the Boss's space, not pour coffee grounds down the sink, and will stay within normal limits of behavior in the workplace, including showing up, even if they are slightly less efficient at doing their job.....

The military also does the job of weeding the interesting people out....The USMC is not known for its free spirits.

As for the actual content of college, of course that is the classic question, is it not? They give you all sorts of information you never use, with the exception of showing off during Bar Trivia from time to time.

[PrestonSturges]

I had a friend who took about 135 credits without ever graduating because he never declared a major (most places won't let you do this any more). He did quite well in IT, but eventually went into a spiral of alcoholism and died.

He would not have gotten much work today, because not finishing is a big red flag, and in his case not finishing was clearly a warning flag of his rebellious nature. Not his fault, his family were hoarders and shut-ins. But still, his college transcript was an indicator of pre-addictive behavior that intensified until he died.

[Comp_Lex]

here is another example of wasted 15-16 years. "Computer Science" sounds so ridiculous it has to be abbreviated to "CS". I mean 15 years of life in the grinder is not a joke.

Well, at least I get the satisfaction with knowing that you don't actually know what it's all about and how much my discipline deals with other disciplines, like physics, biology, math, economics, etc.

[davep]

here is another example of wasted 15-16 years. "Computer Science" sounds so ridiculous it has to be abbreviated to "CS". I mean 15 years of life in the grinder is not a joke.

Well, at least I get the satisfaction with knowing that you don't actually know what it's all about and how much my discipline deals with other disciplines, like physics, biology, math, economics, etc.

I get the satisfaction of doing bugger all and leaving education at 18, but still earning a six-figure salary.

However, I realise that this is almost impossible nowadays.

I also like the fact that I can study a lot of different disciplines in my own time without having been hidebound by dogma in my formative years.

[Pretorian]

here is another example of wasted 15-16 years. "Computer Science" sounds so ridiculous it has to be abbreviated to "CS". I mean 15 years of life in the grinder is not a joke.

Well, at least I get the satisfaction with knowing that you don't actually know what it's all about and how much my discipline deals with other disciplines, like physics, biology, math, economics, etc.

What I know is that there is no such thing as a computer " science". It is a skill, or a set of skills, but by no means a "science". I mean who even came up with such a term that used even in Dutch schools now? And all that along with physics, biology, math, economics you could learn at home in between of "Simpsons" and "Family guy". If you have half a brain, that is. No need to go to school for tthat.

[Pops]

Stay on topic, please
Pops

[Pretorian]

Well, there is one thing, and that is, a college degree represents that you are capable of putting up with a certain level of BS in your life....for at least four years.

There were people that I went to school with that were BS-intolerant, if you know what I mean, if you set up a rule, they would try to break it. If there was a procedure for something, they would do the opposite....

College, the way it is right now, naturally weeds a lot of those people out. If you cannot figure out how to go to the administration building, register for the right classes, figure out how to competently schedule your major, get your bill paid, get the right books, show up for class often enough to pass it, and spew back a lot of the "wisdom" that the prof gives to you, you pretty much cannot function in some of these jobs no matter how bright you are because you do not conform to boundaries...

Someone please can and should make the argument that those boundary breakers are exactly the people that make the world interesting. A lot of prospective employers do not want interesting people around, they want people who will fit in, not park in the Boss's space, not pour coffee grounds down the sink, and will stay within normal limits of behavior in the workplace, including showing up, even if they are slightly less efficient at doing their job.....

The military also does the job of weeding the interesting people out....The USMC is not known for its free spirits.

As for the actual content of college, of course that is the classic question, is it not? They give you all sorts of information you never use, with the exception of showing off during Bar Trivia from time to time.

I couldnt agree more, pup. Sad but true. I already started to forget how good some of your posts are. Still, one could hope to have a torture chamber for a few hours as an option to all that 16-year-long BS-testing and proofing.