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Political compass

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Political compass

Unread postby dorlomin » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 18:16:24

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Politics round here seems to be locked into the dichotomy of the US culture wars with attendant accusations of 'fascism' and 'socialist'. The idea that the entire scope of human poltics can be constrained the bi party system of an anglophonic liberal democracy is a touch narrow sighted.

More over with immenant peak oil peoples poltical analysis needs to become more nuanced, able to differentiate the differing ideologies on offer. It also needs to be made aware of as many of those options as possible. Think of it as expanding you political tool kit.

The first thing to do it to break free from the one dimentional view of their only being a left and a right and see the difference between socially liberatarian and authoratarian strands of political views.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 18:23:41

There's a quiz somewhere that helps you plot yourself on that graph. I was over near Gandhi somewhere. Left/Libertarian. Or maybe Anarcho-socialist. :)
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby dorlomin » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 18:30:44

Any political ideology is going to have its oponents trying to define it, hence the wide spread attempts to assign modern political parties the labels of past well understood labels (even if that 'well understood' is about 100% wrong.)

The phrase liberal and its correct poltical use is for the pro freemarket pro private owership political orientation emerging from the utilatarians in the 19th century. Libealism is roughly the emancipation of the individual and non interference of the state in private lives.

A strand of this in the modern west is social liberalism which roughly takes the position that society at large or the state itself has imposed hinderances on individuals that require some remidial state actions to redress. An easy example of this would be slavery which imposed a huge hinderance on the freedom of individuals and in the view of social liberals required government action to make up for. This where the US democrats largely come in.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby dorlomin » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 18:47:19

Ludi wrote:There's a quiz somewhere that helps you plot yourself on that graph. I was over near Gandhi somewhere. Left/Libertarian. Or maybe Anarcho-socialist. :)
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Socialism is the idea that the state should own and control significant parts of the economy. This is the big differnce between socialism and social liberalism. Some argue that this is a more democratic form of society as concentrations of financial power are under the direct control of the government and so if the government is democratically controled then financial power is in the hands of the people, others argue that this is a hinderance on the freedom of individuals so is less free, the economic argument against it is simply that the state is not efficient in its allocation of resources so the invested capital does not maximise returns of capital and everyone ends up less well off.

Communism in its modern use tends to be from the Marxist Lennist states that emerged in the 20th century and has both near total state ownership and central planning for the economy.

Anarchism on the far left tend to be about diminishing the state to near zero and workers owning the 'means of production' factories and social orginisation along local consensus.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 18:54:03

dorlomin wrote:Socialism is the idea that the state should own and control significant parts of the economy.



That's a very limited definition (I thought we were trying not to limit our ideas here?)

"Collective ownership" does not necessarily mean ownership by the state, unless you can't imagine a society without a "state" (humans lived for tens of thousands of years with societies but no states).

Definition of SOCIALISM
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Here in Texas we have cooperatives which are totally de-coupled from the state. Socialism, but not state socialism.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 19:12:50

dorlomin wrote:A strand of this in the modern west is social liberalism which roughly takes the position that society at large or the state itself has imposed hinderances on individuals that require some remidial state actions to redress. An easy example of this would be slavery which imposed a huge hinderance on the freedom of individuals and in the view of social liberals required government action to make up for. This where the US democrats largely come in.


Good Point. The US democrats supported slavery to the point that they committed treason en masse and seceded from the US and formed the Confederacy to preserve slavery---you can't hinder individual freedom much more than that! 8)
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 19:33:43

Anybody you could name down in the corner with Ayn Rand who wasn't a militant atheist, a crappy writer, and married to a gay guy?
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 19:45:49

dorlomin wrote:I was over near Gandhi somewhere. Left/Libertarian. Or maybe Anarcho-socialist. :)
http://www.politicalcompass.org/[/quote]

I just took the quiz:

Image

Turns out I'm Libertarian-Left, which is pretty darn accurate. Looks like I'm smack in the same spot as the Dalai Llama, and near Gandhi and Mandela so not bad company there.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby eastbay » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 19:50:22

Along the left outer border line, about even horizontally with Uncle Joe's chin. About where I figured. :) Join us.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 20:08:06

I'm a bit more conserative than Nelson Mandella, which in the graphic puts me somewhere around Castro's right ankle.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 20:11:17

Who would have guessed this is...

Me?:

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Re: Political compass

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 21:04:53

PrestonSturges wrote:Anybody you could name down in the corner with Ayn Rand who wasn't a militant atheist, a crappy writer, and married to a gay guy?


I believe there was a reason Ayn Rand was a "crappy" writer. To put it simply, she had to repeat the basic concepts over and over again to even have a chance of pounding them into folks' heads who had enough brains or independence left to at least honestly consider them.

Our society has been corrupted so thoroughly with political correctness and the idea that massive wealth redistribution is the only way to correct the ills of life that she was correct -- pounding away repeatedly was the only way that had a chance (which "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead" certainly did).

Not to say I want to just leave everyone in the ditch that has a problem (as she implied she did) -- just that there is a serious LIMIT to how much redistribution will actually help. We're certainly getting beyond it, but the hard left will never admit that.

Oddly, I NEVER see a meaningful response to the "how much is enough?" questions that those with a libertarian bent often ask the flaming redistributionists. IMO, that's because the truth is it will NEVER be enough until there is zero incentive to produce anything to benefit society overall. Funny how that system produces economies like North Korea and Haiti.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 23:55:11

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
PrestonSturges wrote:Anybody you could name down in the corner with Ayn Rand who wasn't a militant atheist, a crappy writer, and married to a gay guy?


I believe there was a reason Ayn Rand was a "crappy" writer..
Well she also had problems with plot, continuity, characters, dialogue.....
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Thu 30 Sep 2010, 00:13:51

(As much fun as it may be, attacking Ayn Rand doesn't really relate to this topic)

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Economic Left/Right: 6.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.97

A lot of the questions in this particular quiz are misleading.

Examples:
I may believe that mothers should focus on being mothers above everything else but that doesn't mean I think women should be excluded from the workforce or that women are somehow inferior to men.

"Astrology accurately explains many things" Do social liberals believe in astrology? Social conservatives? Who is more likely to believe in astrology, Ayn Rand or Pol Pot? Noam Chomsky or Dick Cheney? It's just a bogus question.

"A significant advantage of a one-party state is that it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system." You can't argue this statement isn't technically true. That doesn't mean I support a one-party dictatorship.

So I end up looking a bit more socially conservative than I actually am. If you take out that bad questions, I'm probably closer to the line. My real number on the Social Libertarian/Authoritarian scale is probably more like 1, not 3.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 30 Sep 2010, 01:01:18

I dount anyone took that quiz and came out in the middle. The questions did not have any nuance, and did not seem to have been written by anyone who designs tests.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby careinke » Thu 30 Sep 2010, 01:40:56

I ended up 3.2 to the right and -4.6 on the Authoritarian/libertarian scale (towards the libertarian). I think the guy I am closest to is Uncle Milt, but I cant really read the name. Funny when I take the "Worlds shortest political quiz" I max out as a libertarian.

Good thread. It relates to what I have been struggling with. I don't seem to fit well with either party.

I believe in a strong defense, yet think we have gone WAY overboard. We spend as much on the military as the rest of the world combined! Don't you think we could have a strong defense spending maybe half or even a quarter as much as the rest of the world?

I believe in law and order, yet with this, we have also gone way overboard. We have 5% of the worlds population, yet we have 25% of the worlds prisoners. Are Americans just more evil than the rest of the world?

I believe in good education. We spend more per student on education than any other nation, yet the quality of our education is almost at a third world status and certainly lower than most first world countries.

I think the core problem with the world today is overpopulation and over-consumption, yet we give tax breaks for babies, and tax income rather than consumption.

I believe the abortion debate will always rage on until we can decide when life begins. Once we decide when life begins then I think everyone would agree no abortion except to save the life of the mother after the fetus has been declared a human. Right now a person can be charged with two murders when a pregnant lady is killed, yet a pregnant mother can, almost at will, kill the fetus with no legal consequences. We are not being consistent here.

I believe we all own our own bodies. The government should not be able to tell us what we can or cannot consume. If I want to eat a bowl of trans-fat and smoke a joint in the privacy of my own home I should be allowed to do it.

I believe "WAR ON.." when spoken by a politician leads to more theft of my money for programs that never work. War on poverty started with Johnson, yet more people are poor today than when it started. The war on drugs, which started in earnest with Ronald has been a miserable failure. Education would have been far more effective and less costly in both of these cases.

I believe Democracy works best at the local level, yet both parties keep increasing the size and scope of the Federal Government.

Finally I've come to realize this is not the America I was led to believe it was and my efforts are better spent preparing for the coming train wreck. When I vote now, I vote for the PERSON and not he party.
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Thu 30 Sep 2010, 02:28:14

careinke,

I think I agree with almost every single word you've written here. Excellent post.

Do you mind if I quote you for a discussion I've been having with a friend?
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby careinke » Thu 30 Sep 2010, 02:39:45

Feel Free :)
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby anador » Thu 30 Sep 2010, 03:41:58

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About what I expected
@#$% highways
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Re: Political compass

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 30 Sep 2010, 03:57:38

Careinke wrote:We have 5% of the worlds population, yet we have 25% of the worlds prisoners. Are Americans just more evil than the rest of the world?


No, but the evil within our borders has been fought for over a century.

The Haymarket affair (also known as the Haymarket massacre) was a demonstration and unrest that took place on Tuesday May 4, 1886, at the Haymarket Square in Chicago. It began as a rally in support of striking workers. An unknown person threw a bomb at police as they dispersed the public meeting. The bomb blast and ensuing gunfire resulted in the deaths of eight police officers, mostly from friendly fire, and an unknown number of civilians. In the internationally publicized legal proceedings that followed, eight anarchists were tried for murder. Four men were convicted and executed, and one committed suicide in prison, although the prosecution conceded none of the defendants had thrown the bomb.

The deeply polarized attitudes separating business and working class people in late 19th-century Chicago are generally acknowledged as having precipitated the tragedy and its aftermath.

In October 1884, a convention held by the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions unanimously set May 1, 1886, as the date by which the eight-hour work day would become standard. As the chosen date approached, U.S. labor unions prepared for a general strike in support of the eight-hour day.

Estimates of the number of striking workers across the U.S. range from 300,000 to half a million.

The rally began peacefully under a light rain on the evening of May 4. August Spies spoke to the large crowd while standing in an open wagon on Des Plaines Street while a large number of on-duty police officers watched from nearby. According to witnesses, Spies began by saying the rally was not meant to incite violence. Historian Paul Avrich records Spies as saying "there seems to prevail the opinion in some quarters that this meeting has been called for the purpose of inaugurating a riot, hence these warlike preparations on the part of so-called 'law and order.' However, let me tell you at the beginning that this meeting has not been called for any such purpose. The object of this meeting is to explain the general situation of the eight-hour movement and to throw light upon various incidents in connection with it."

The crowd was so calm that Mayor Carter Harrison, Sr., who had stopped by to watch, walked home early. Samuel Fielden, the last speaker, was finishing his speech at about 10:30 when police ordered the rally to disperse and began marching in formation towards the speakers' wagon. A pipe bomb was thrown at the police line and exploded, killing policeman Mathias J. Degan. The police immediately opened fire. Some workers were armed, but accounts vary widely as to how many shot back. The incident lasted less than five minutes.

An anonymous police official told the Chicago Tribune, "A very large number of the police were wounded by each other's revolvers. ... It was every man for himself, and while some got two or three squares away, the rest emptied their revolvers, mainly into each other."

The Chicago Herald described a scene of "wild carnage" and estimated at least fifty dead or wounded civilians lay in the streets.

Eight people connected directly or indirectly with the rally and its anarchist organizers were arrested afterward and charged.

The prosecution, led by Julius Grinnell, did not offer credible evidence connecting the defendants with the bombing but argued that the person who had thrown the bomb was not discouraged to do so by the defendants, who as conspirators were therefore equally responsible.

Albert Parsons' brother claimed there was evidence linking the Pinkertons to the bomb.

The jury returned guilty verdicts for all eight defendants – death sentences for seven of the men, and a sentence of 15 years in prison for Neebe. The sentencing sparked outrage from budding labor and workers' movements, resulted in protests around the world, and elevated the defendants as international political celebrities and heroes within labor and radical political circles.

After the appeals had been exhausted, Illinois Governor Richard James Oglesby commuted Fielden's and Schwab's sentences to life in prison on November 10, 1887. On the eve of his scheduled execution, Lingg committed suicide in his cell with a smuggled dynamite cap which he reportedly held in his mouth like a cigar (the blast blew off half his face and he survived in agony for six hours).

The next day (November 11, 1887) Spies, Parsons, Fischer and Engel were taken to the gallows in white robes and hoods. They sang the Marseillaise, then the anthem of the international revolutionary movement. Family members including Lucy Parsons, who attempted to see them for the last time, were arrested and searched for bombs (none were found). According to witnesses, in the moments before the men were hanged, Spies shouted, "The time will come when our silence will be more powerful than the voices you strangle today!" Witnesses reported that the condemned men did not die immediately when they dropped, but strangled to death slowly, a sight which left the spectators visibly shaken.

The trial has been characterized as one of the most serious miscarriages of justice in United States history. Most working people believed Pinkerton agents had provoked the incident. On June 26, 1893, Illinois Governor John Peter Altgeld signed pardons for Fielden, Neebe, and Schwab after having concluded all eight defendants were innocent. The governor said the reason for the bombing was the city of Chicago's failure to hold Pinkerton guards responsible for shooting workers. The pardons ended his political career.

Commemoration of May Day became an annual event the following year.

The association of May Day with the Haymarket martyrs has remained strong in Mexico. Mary Harris "Mother" Jones was in Mexico on May 1, 1921, and wrote of the "day of 'fiestas'" that marked "the killing of the workers in Chicago for demanding the eight-hour day". In 1929 The New York Times referred to the May Day parade in Mexico City as "the annual demonstration glorifying the memory of those who were killed in Chicago in 1886." The New York Times described the 1936 demonstration as a commemoration of "the death of the martyrs in Chicago." An American visitor in 1981 wrote that she was embarrassed to explain to knowledgeable Mexican workers that American workers were ignorant of the Haymarket affair and the origins of May Day.

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Know that many gave their lives so that workers no longer were forced to work every waking hour.
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The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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