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PeakOil is You

Osho

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Osho

Unread postby paimei01 » Tue 09 Nov 2010, 16:04:02

The child has to become unloving, unspontaneous. He has to deaden his sensitivity just to survive -- every child, more or less; the difference is only of degrees. Every child has to learn tricks to survive. And the basic trick is: never be spontaneous. Be formal, never be natural, because your spontaneity is bound to be punished and your formality praised, rewarded. The parents enforce a subtle strategy: they create fear in the child if he says the truth. Nobody wants the child to say the truth, and the child is not yet capable of Lying. But he has to learn."

"But they learn one thing sooner or later: that they have to be diplomatic -- with the grown-ups you can't be true, honest, sincere."


http://www.messagefrommasters.com/Spiri ... uotes1.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD0Y00AN ... r_embedded

The machine:
http://www.primitivism.com/machine-heads.htm
When confronted with the awesome power of civilization whose first representatives are parents, teachers, priests (and, later on, police officers, legislators and bosses) the child faces, psychologically, the same situation as its tribal ancestors, namely, conform to the dictates of civilization or die. The helplessness of childhood makes the threat of bodily harm or loss of love, which is used by the parents and others to enforce civilized morality and civilized education, a traumatic experience.


"But with no constraints, with no threats from the adults - the children would kill, destroy, chaos, mayhem, end of the world!". Sure. Because we are faulty. We are the only species on this planet - that if left free - destroys itself! This is what 2000 years of this shit "religion" can do. "You are evil, bad, sinful, imperfect, you need punishment, you need to learn to listen".... We are now running in reverse. "Problems ? More control we need !" Never freedom. Free=evil, because our "nature is evil".
Look around. All this destruction comes not from people that were left free as children. It comes from slaves, taught not to be themselves.

http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2010/10/if ... p-you.html

http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2010/05/ch ... stein.html

http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/10/life.html
Last edited by paimei01 on Wed 10 Nov 2010, 03:02:55, edited 1 time in total.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Osho

Unread postby americandream » Tue 09 Nov 2010, 16:50:39

There's a tendency to wallow in this deep seated sentimental and subjective introspection when, really, a society devoted to the advancement of the self to the extent that the collective is rendered a charitable past time, can hardly be expected to throw up specimens of virtue and goodness. As humankind progresses it's way within a context that is subject to limits (unless of course we find the means to comprehensively break the chains of the finite paradigm by some technological means or the conquest of new planets), we will develop the necessary skills to ensure the survival of our species.....or die off.
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Re: Osho

Unread postby paimei01 » Tue 09 Nov 2010, 17:17:33

You don't get it. I don't care about the "species". "Life is precious" shit. Life is precious when it's free. Not locked up, denied, kept from doing what it feels it wants to do - because it's "precious".
We look for bacteria on Mars. What about the advanced life form "Homo Sapiens" ?
http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/ama ... -in-china/
That's what Homo Sapiens does. That's "his nature" we are told...He is "faulty" - from birth.

Look around. Ask. 80% at least - hate Mondays. What do they do from Monday to Friday ? They destroy the planet, turn it into money. It's not like it's their passion. Here, how it all began:
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2010/07/terpsichore.html
You see no violence - where the real violence is. You know why you don't see it ? Because there is nobody that can fight back. They are too little.
School - some strangers keeping you were you don't want to be, boring you to death. If you had an interest in something, you soon forget about it. That's what happens to most of us. Einstein:
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2010/10/be ... chine.html
One had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect on me that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year.



http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter6-4.php
Young people know it most certainly; we call that knowledge idealism. They know that there is a way the world is supposed to be, and a magnificent role for themselves in that more beautiful world. Broken to the lesser lives we offer them, they react with hostility, rage, cynicism, depression, escapism, or self-destruction—all the defining qualities of modern adolescence. Then we blame them for not bringing these qualities under control, and when they finally have given up their idealism we call them mature. Having given up their idealism, they can get on with the business of survival: practicality and security, comfort and safety, which is what we are left with in the absence of purpose. So we suggest they major in something practical, stay out of trouble, don't take risks, build a résumé. We think we are practical and wise in the ways of the world. Really we are just broken and afraid.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Osho

Unread postby americandream » Tue 09 Nov 2010, 17:42:28

Have you noticed how aggressive your reply was. That is always the case, I have noticed, with those who impose some grandiose expectation over organic life and then expect it to perform as required. Hence my distaste for charity and aid in which scenario the recipient is no better than someone's passive actor.

In other words, humankind has failed to meet your expectations and attracts your ire. In contrast, I view humans and our individual conduct as no more than the various parts of the systemic whole we call civilisation. Irrespective of how precious we may individually be or how high up we may be along some threshold of exceptionalism or how imminently close we are to doom, our society will make of us that which it expects of us and therein lies the problem. How we deal with it is another matter.
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Re: Osho

Unread postby paimei01 » Tue 09 Nov 2010, 18:27:33

No. "Humanity has not met my expectations". Humanity meets all my expectations when free. I can see human relations forming - everywhere there is a little freedom. Right now - on Discovery, street children in Odessa. One of them got a phone call from his mother - trough a priest that was helping them, he had a family and a sister still living at home. He did not want to return. Priest comment "they get the taste of freedom here, no school, no schedule, that's the problem"....For millions of years that was normal. Read the links above.
"The Indian parent was constitutionally reluctant to discipline his children.' Their every exhibition of self-will was accepted as a favorable indication of the development of maturing character.. ."

Yes I know I''m "aggressive". I'm out of words. Hate words. Need words to "explain". "Feel don't think". Think with your heart. I am not joking and this has nothing to do with "be good" "love everyone". Think with your heart. That's what all free people do. That's what children do - until we "re-educate" them. To be yourself is bad...

http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/08/th ... earth.html
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2010/07/sioux.html
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Osho

Unread postby paimei01 » Tue 09 Nov 2010, 18:41:23

Do not tell me "that's how we evolved, you don't like it". This is not evolution. Only free life evolves. Proof- New York blackout 1977. It takes very little - to become what we really are again. In our case (civilized people - who were denied growth - I am not talking about size) - 2 year old children - with all the chaos that comes from that. At first. That is my proof this is not "evolution". I mean - you can see it everywhere.

If the machine that keeps us under control, keeps us like cultivated plants - in the fields, using lots of energy for this, breaks down, it will take time for us to reach this again, but this is our nature:
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2010/05/free-people.html
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/08/pr ... hange.html
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Osho

Unread postby americandream » Tue 09 Nov 2010, 19:07:35

paimei01 wrote:Do not tell me "that's how we evolved, you don't like it". This is not evolution. Only free life evolves. Proof- New York blackout 1977. It takes very little - to become what we really are again. In our case (civilized people - who were denied growth - I am not talking about size) - 2 year old children - with all the chaos that comes from that. At first. That is my proof this is not "evolution". I mean - you can see it everywhere.

If the machine that keeps us under control, keeps us like cultivated plants - in the fields, using lots of energy for this, breaks down, it will take time for us to reach this again, but this is our nature:
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2010/05/free-people.html
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/08/pr ... hange.html


OK. How should I explain this.

We operate at two levels.

The basic biological level into which evolution feeds in order to contour us for the environmental limits on this planet.

The added niceties that we as a sentient species configure to soften the worst effects of these evolutions adjustments, culture in other words.

With each passing generation, our understanding of this second tier of environmental mitigation grows better as our power to reason empirically increases. We increasingly realise that with greater growth, comes more resource demand. That is an empirical fact that all but the most dull would deny.

However, given the very logic of the mitigational systems that we have in place (culture), our chances of seriously denting that resource demand are about as likely as avoiding the urge to breath. Breathing is as much a function of our continued living as is waste and capitalism. Likewise capitalist individualism and all the bizarre excesses we encounter in a social order dedicated to elevating the self and it's immediate horizons above the collective and it's intergenerational focus.

Clearly, the excesses of self indulgence we encounter are distressing. However, they are no more evil than the epidemic of obesity/bulimia in the midst of a food culture that is invariably focussed on the fast buck, whether it be in selling you one gimmick or another.
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Re: Osho

Unread postby paimei01 » Wed 10 Nov 2010, 02:54:32

We don't like what we do. Understand that ? Ask around. "This is normal, we are evil, we destroy". No. I don't see happy people on the street every Monday, who just can't wait to do their stuff. We are trapped. Here, the link again, how it all began:
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2010/07/terpsichore.html

In a tribe food was for all. Food. The basic stuff. We - with all our inventions, we make sure food is locked up. Else - who would keep the system of destruction going ? People would find other stuff they like to do. Art, partying, sports and so on.
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/ ... icle/2962/
It was an attractive vision, and it worked. Not only did Kellogg prosper, but journalists from magazines such as Forbes and BusinessWeek reported that the great majority of company employees embraced the shorter workday. One reporter described “a lot of gardening and community beautification, athletics and hobbies . . . libraries well patronized and the mental background of these fortunate workers . . . becoming richer.”


We operate on one level. Right now we are cut in pieces from childhood, from this comes all "philosophy".

Some people eating too much ? They try to replace what they did not get - as human beings. They try to replace this:
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/08/pr ... hange.html
with stuff.
Those people were alive every day. It did not matter what they did, they did it as free humans. From childhood - nobody "punished" them, nobody ordered them around, nobody beat them. The machine was not installed. Osho - first post. Now we look at some "adventurers" who live on the edge and say "cool".... This was normal. Also the conscience that we are nature, we are the environment - was normal. Destroying meant self destruction. Look at life how complex it is. You think we become this complex organism - only to be unable to form complex societies that work perfect ? Living societies, no formal rules. If we listen to ourselves (not "reason") - we form them. We can see tiny utopias forming everywhere. Family the last remnant of the tribe. And we seek more. We are social being - not "capitalist" beings. This society is dead. Electricity gone - society gone. Police gone - the same. This is my proof it's dead. A living society, a tribe, has no such problems. It's alive. This means it's us. A society that resists without police, that is truth.
This short period of 5000 years is just a little slavery experiment. Ancient history has a lot of strange stuff. What I know - we don't want this, and every new generation tries to escape this. Grass tries to grow through asphalt. That's why I don't believe anyone who says "our nature".

http://www.rainbowbody.net/Finalempire/FEchap8.htm
"There is no such thing as unlimited growth of numbers in the natural world. The populations of organic beings in the web of the natural world do not press constantly against their food supply. For several million years humans maintained a stable population with respect to their environment. The idea that there is something inevitable about human population expansion is wrong. Historically, population explosions have only happened within the human culture that we know as civilization. The idea of linear increase of population was popularized by Thomas R. Malthus and picked up by Charles Darwin in his theory of evolution. Population increase was the basis of the biological dynamics of Darwin's model. Darwin says that, "A struggle for existence inevitably follows from the high rate at which all organic beings tend to increase." Here is one of the grim assumptions that are typical of Darwin's era."

"No species strives to increase without limit, any more than an individual tends to grow to infinity. And animal populations are limited not by struggle, starvation, and death, but by restricting the number of breeders in various ways and by varying the number of offspring produced at a time by each female. Biologist V. C. Wynne-Edward's comments on Darwin's assumption that every living thing strives to increase its numbers geometrically."


http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter5-6.php
One solution was outright force: the driving of peasants off the land through enclosure, the use of militias to enforce strike prohibitions, and mostly the motive of extreme economy exigency. However, the inhumanity of this solution offended the conscience and besides, it was potentially very explosive as a series of insurrections, revolutions, and bloody labor strikes throughout Europe and North America attested. Wouldn't it be better to somehow condition people from childhood to accept, and even to desire, work that was partial, trivial, mechanical, dull, repetitive, and unchallenging to thought or creativity?

Is this description already reminding you of school? Where learning arises not from curiosity but from authority's agenda; where achievement is adjudged by external standards; where human beings, like so many objects, are numbered, "class"ified, and "graded"; where knowledge is reduced to answers, right and wrong; where children are confined to a classroom or desk except when authority allows them "recess" or a pass; where problems are solved by following teacher's instructions; where free speech and free assembly are suspended—where, indeed, there are no freedoms at all but only privileges; where bells condition us to follow a regular external schedule; where fraternization is surreptitious (as my teacher once said, "You are not here to socialize!"); where none outside the hierarchical structure of authority have the power to make or change rules; where we must accept the tasks given us; where work is arbitrary and meaningless except for what external reward it brings; where resistance is proved futile in the face of a near-omniscient, omnipotent central authority. . . what better preparation for adult confinement to offices and factories could there be? What better preparation for accepting unquestioningly the lives given us? Where else can students "learn to think of themselves as employees competing for the favors of management"?


http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html
The first lesson I teach is: "Stay in the class where you belong." I don't know who decides that my kids belong there but that's not my business. The children are numbered so that if any get away they can be returned to the right class. Over the years the variety of ways children are numbered has increased dramatically, until it is hard to see the human being under the burden of the numbers each carries. Numbering children is a big and very profitable business, though what the business is designed to accomplish is elusive.

In any case, again, that's not my business. My job is to make the kids like it -- being locked in together, I mean -- or at the minimum, endure it. If things go well, the kids can't imagine themselves anywhere else; they envy and fear the better classes and have contempt for the dumber classes. So the class mostly keeps itself in good marching order. That's the real lesson of any rigged competition like school. You come to know your place.

Nevertheless, in spite of the overall blueprint, I make an effort to urge children to higher levels of test success, promising eventual transfer from the lower-level class as a reward. I insinuate that the day will come when an employer will hire them on the basis of test scores, even though my own experience is that employers are (rightly) indifferent to such things. I never lie outright, but I've come to see that truth and [school]teaching are incompatible.

The lesson of numbered classes is that there is no way out of your class except by magic. Until that happens you must stay where you are put.

The second lesson I teach kids is to turn on and off like a light switch. I demand that they become totally involved in my lessons, jumping up and down in their seats with anticipation, competing vigorously with each other for my favor. But when the bell rings I insist that they drop the work at once and proceed quickly to the next work station. Nothing important is ever finished in my class, nor in any other class I know of.

The lesson of bells is that no work is worth finishing, so why care too deeply about anything? Bells are the secret logic of schooltime; their argument is inexorable; bells destroy past and future, converting every interval into a sameness, as an abstract map makes every living mountain and river the same even though they are not. Bells inoculate each undertaking with indifference.

The third lesson I teach you is to surrender your will to a predestined chain of command. Rights may be granted or withheld, by authority, without appeal. As a schoolteacher I intervene in many personal decisions, issuing a Pass for those I deem legitimate, or initiating a disciplinary confrontation for behavior that threatens my control. My judgments come thick and fast, because individuality is trying constantly to assert itself in my classroom. Individuality is a curse to all systems of classification, a contradiction of class theory.

Here are some common ways it shows up: children sneak away for a private moment in the toilet on the pretext of moving their bowels; they trick me out of a private instant in the hallway on the grounds that they need water. Sometimes free will appears right in front of me in children angry, depressed or exhilarated by things outside my ken. Rights in such things cannot exist for schoolteachers; only privileges, which can be withdrawn, exist.

The fourth lesson I teach is that only I determine what curriculum you will study. (Rather, I enforce decisions transmitted by the people who pay me). This power lets me separate good kids from bad kids instantly. Good kids do the tasks I appoint with a minimum of conflict and a decent show of enthusiasm. Of the millions of things of value to learn, I decide what few we have time for. The choices are mine. Curiosity has no important place in my work, only conformity.

Bad kids fight against this, of course, trying openly or covertly to make decisions for themselves about what they will learn. How can we allow that and survive as schoolteachers? Fortunately there are procedures to break the will of those who resist.

This is another way I teach the lesson of dependency. Good people wait for a teacher to tell them what to do. This is the most important lesson of all, that we must wait for other people, better trained than ourselves, to make the meanings of our lives. It is no exaggeration to say that our entire economy depends upon this lesson being learned. Think of what would fall apart if kids weren't trained in the dependency lesson: The social-service businesses could hardly survive, including the fast-growing counseling industry; commercial entertainment of all sorts, along with television, would wither if people remembered how to make their own fun; the food services, restaurants and prepared-food warehouses would shrink if people returned to making their own meals rather than depending on strangers to cook for them. Much of modern law, medicine, and engineering would go too -- the clothing business as well -- unless a guaranteed supply of helpless people poured out of our schools each year. We've built a way of life that depends on people doing what they are told because they don't know any other way. For God's sake, let's not rock that boat!

In lesson five I teach that your self-respect should depend on an observer's measure of your worth. My kids are constantly evaluated and judged. A monthly report, impressive in its precision, is sent into students' homes to spread approval or to mark exactly -- down to a single percentage point -- how dissatisfied with their children parents should be. Although some people might be surprised how little time or reflection goes into making up these records, the cumulative weight of the objective- seeming documents establishes a profile of defect which compels a child to arrive at a certain decisions about himself and his future based on the casual judgment of strangers.

Self-evaluation -- the staple of every major philosophical system that ever appeared on the planet -- is never a factor in these things. The lesson of report cards, grades, and tests is that children should not trust themselves or their parents, but must rely on the evaluation of certified officials. People need to be told what they are worth.

In lesson six I teach children that they are being watched. I keep each student under constant surveillance and so do my colleagues. There are no private spaces for children; there is no private time. Class change lasts 300 seconds to keep promiscuous fraternization at low levels. Students are encouraged to tattle on each other, even to tattle on their parents. Of course I encourage parents to file their own child's waywardness, too.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Osho

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 10 Nov 2010, 05:17:39

paimei01 wrote: Right now - on Discovery, street children in Odessa. One of them got a phone call from his mother - trough a priest that was helping them, he had a family and a sister still living at home. He did not want to return. Priest comment "they get the taste of freedom here, no school, no schedule, that's the problem"....For millions of years that was normal.


Actually, for millions of years young primates were under watchfull eyes of their parents or other elders, just as they are now (in schools or African plains). That young boy likes the streets because of booze and glue. I saw one of these happy free saplings not very far from Odessa, btw. He had a secondary syphilis already -- dude was barely 10.
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Re: Osho

Unread postby paimei01 » Wed 10 Nov 2010, 05:30:01

So - the problem are those children, for wanting to be free ? Not the machine that destroyed everything, they don't have this to run to:
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/08/pr ... hange.html
so they live in the sewers.
Yes, that's the problem. They should wake up to "reality"... This is not reality, it's a lie, everyday we lie.
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Osho

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 10 Nov 2010, 05:35:21

No, the problem is adults that are having those kids, and the government that does let them get loose. They are raped far more often then you can imagine, btw. From what I know there is abuse , neglect and violence in all their families.
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Re: Osho

Unread postby paimei01 » Wed 10 Nov 2010, 05:54:04

Secondary problems. I don't mean "not important" I mean secondary. Impossible to solve if we don't see the machine.
"The Creeks are just honest, liberal and hospitable to strangers; considerate, loving and affectionate to their wives and relations; fond of their children; industrious, frugal, temperate and persevering; charitable and forbearing. I have been weeks and months among them and in their towns, and never observed the least sign of contention or wrangling: never saw an instance of and Indian beating his wife, or even reproving her in anger. In this case they stand as examples of reproof to the most civilized nations . . . for indeed their wives merit their esteem and the most gentle treatment, they being industrious, frugal, loving and affectionate . . .Their internal police and family economy. . .incontrovertibly place those people in an illustrious point of view: their liberality, intimacy and friendly intercourse with one another, without any restraint of ceremonious formality; as if they were even insensible of the use of necessity of associating the passions of affections of avarice, ambition or covetousness. . . How are we to account for their excellent policy in civil government; it cannot derive its influence from coercive laws, for they have no such artificial system."
http://paimei01.blogspot.com/
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough homes ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game". Now it's "Crisis" time !Too many houses! Yes, we are insane!
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Re: Osho

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 10 Nov 2010, 10:55:41

I would have never dreamed that an Osho thread would appear on peakoil.com

I was a sanyasin years ago:)
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