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The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of view

Discuss research and forecasts regarding hydrocarbon depletion.

The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of view

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 13 Nov 2010, 19:09:46

Our news page features an article:
The problem with "Peak Oil" from an economist’s point of view by Michael Giberson
A lot of peak oil analysis leaves economists cold. After all, production levels are in part a result of production choices, and in markets production is driven in part by costs and prices. The popular Hubbert’s Curve approach to modeling peak oil ignores all of this. Here is a quote from a recent analysis by James L. Smith:
[Hubbert's model] is problematic for economists since the volume (and timing) of ultimate recovery presumably depends upon price — which in turn depends upon demand, interest rates, and the cost of production — none of which are incorporated here. There is no assurance in Hubbert’s model that the projected rates of future production will actually clear the market. Although the prediction is simple, it is not credible due to neglect of these fundamental economic factors.
Smith also notes that “Empirical tests of [Hubbert-style analysis] … failed badly in predicting the peak, which reinforces economists’ theoretical objections to the underlying method.”


In Smith's paper I find:
Moreover, a perfect substitute for the depletable resource (i.e., a backstop technology) is available in unlimited quantities at constant unit cost (B). The cost of the backstop is assumed to be known but may be relatively high.
...
This particular set of assumptions leads to the equilibrium price and production paths shown in Figure 2. The price starts at $26.61 (30% above cost, which represents the scarcity rent or “user cost” of the resource at that time). Over the course of 26 years and 3 months, the price (red line) rises to $100, which is the cost of the backstop, and given the strength of demand at these prices, the total resource endowment is produced and exhausted just as the backstop technology becomes economic.

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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 00:24:59

Modern economists rely heavily on numerical computer models. But the models often don't accurately describe the world. One of the reasons Obama's economic program failed so badly was the computer models used by his economic team showed the stimulus creating millions of jobs, when in reality millions of jobs disappeared. This left the Obama administration looking incredibly stupid through 2009 as they boasted about how many jobs they were creating even as unemployment spiraled higher and higher. Obama's claims about his great success at job creation were based on the computer model---not on the real world data.

This is the same deal....economic computer models show that commodities will be replaced by other commodities if they grow scarce and became expensive. But the models don't specify what the replacement will be....and as oil becomes more and more expensive its hard to see a replacement for oil in the "real world" that will work. 8)
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Crazy_Dad » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 08:05:53

Plantagenet wrote:....and as oil becomes more and more expensive its hard to see a replacement for oil in the "real world" that will work. 8)


That would be the debt serfs, indentured and miserable.
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 08:14:52

I don't have a particular gripe against your argument Planty (this particular one that is), might even mostly agree.

Why oh why do you have to spoil it by simply attacking Obama and the democrats in nearly every post you make. IMO you totally destroy any credibility you might have.

Plantagenet wrote:Modern economists rely heavily on numerical computer models. But the models often don't accurately describe the world. One of the reasons Obama's economic program failed so badly was the computer models used by his economic team showed the stimulus creating millions of jobs, when in reality millions of jobs disappeared. This left the Obama administration looking incredibly stupid through 2009 as they boasted about how many jobs they were creating even as unemployment spiraled higher and higher. Obama's claims about his great success at job creation were based on the computer model---not on the real world data.

This is the same deal....economic computer models show that commodities will be replaced by other commodities if they grow scarce and became expensive. But the models don't specify what the replacement will be....and as oil becomes more and more expensive its hard to see a replacement for oil in the "real world" that will work. 8)
Last edited by Quinny on Sun 14 Nov 2010, 11:39:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 09:39:27

I agree that substitutes will come in as Petroleum decreases, and I think most intelligent people agree. The problem is our system is predicated on cheap energy. Take away cheap Petroleum and substitute more expensive X and the economy has to decrease in response.

We have had housing bubbles several times in American history, and stock bubbles and you name it bubbles, they seem to be something the Federal Reserve bank is good at creating from time to time. However we always had cheap Coal and Petroleum to pull us back out on the other side. That doesn't seem to be working this time with oil closing in on $90.00 again.

So what will the X resource the economists project to exist be? How much will it cost in a Petroleum restricted world where 95% of our transportation systems depend on Petroleum or Coal either directly or indirectly?
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Pops » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 09:52:50

I know even less about economics than other subjects. Having said that...

Don't economists assume that consumers, as a group, will always make the best, most rational, most efficient decision?

Doesn't that pretty well automatically eliminate economics from predicting the future of energy since it can't quantify (with respectable and scientific-looking formulae) things like "drive till you qualify", "keeping up with the Jones'", "not in my backyard", "they hate us for our freedom", "giant oil spill still growing", ...


Economists predicted deregulated markets would be perfectly efficient and we had seen the end of volatility - in effect that the wolves would be the best guardians of the henhouse, looks like they missed on that prediction too.
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 15:14:59

Pops wrote:Don't economists assume that consumers, as a group, will always make the best, most rational, most efficient decision?

Doesn't that pretty well automatically eliminate economics from predicting the future of energy since it can't quantify (with respectable and scientific-looking formulae) things like "drive till you qualify", "keeping up with the Jones'", "not in my backyard", "they hate us for our freedom", "giant oil spill still growing", ...



Short answer: yes pops, you're right.

More detailed answer:

Classical microeconomics, at least as taught in college assumes people are rational, and goes from there. At that point in my education (in 1979) I had the temerity to point out that people are most certainly NOT rational, so that made me wonder how useful this microeconomics was going to be in the real world. I was basically told to shut up and accept that microeconomics relies on that assumption for its models and formulas to work (so much for encouraging open debate and lateral thinking in college). :lol:


Recently, a branch called behavioral economics has become rather popular. It uses experiments to test how people make economic decisions in the real world (instead of just assuming they are rational). Bottom line, we are as irrational as monkeys, and about as advanced (since we behave in largely the same way when trading) as to how emotion and irrational biases affect our trading (i.e. economic behavior). Apparently monkeys evolved such behaviors to better function in groups, and unless you are an evolution denier, the conclusion for where we got this behavior is obvious.

Economics has LONG been called the "dismal science", because it generally fails (in the real world at the macro level) to do what science generally does best -- make meaningfully accurate predictions.

Personally, I think that between people being wildly irrational AND unpredictable in the slow motion mob psychology that rules the planet today, I think it's easy to see why economics makes such inaccurate (more or less random) predictions about near term macroeconomic events. People are NOT molecules.

Most economic predictions (from economists or pundits or laymen) seem to be based more on one's current "worldview filters", such as political point of view than any rational or honest economic thinking.

For example, isn't it "convenient" how lefties see big government as the answer to all economic problems, and view history as bearing this out? And, of course, the right looks at the same data, and comes to the small government / free market conclusions. (This is as rational as EVERY court ruling about the 2000 Bush/Gore election just "happened" to say that the law said THEIR side won. My respect for the law diminished greatly at that point).

Monkeys -- it's ALL monkey business. Being aware of this when you invest, IMO, is critical. Your filters will still try to blind you, but at least if you admit it to yourself you can try to think about risks and alternatives to your P.O.V.

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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 16:43:31

IMO it's not just about rationality, but about the mindset people are in when they make decisions.

This is over simplistic just to illustrate the point, but people (used to be) both producers and consumers. The right very successfully managed to get people to 'vote' (be it with pounds or votes) as consumers which lead to the death of western manufacturing industry and the destruction of working class power.

We had the ridiculous spectacle of Rover workers (probably GM as well) driving to work to collect their redundancy cheques in Nissan cars. :(

They were making rational decisions from a consumer point of view, but from a producer POV it was totally insane. Any decision can probably be shown to be rational depending on timing and scope!
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 17:24:55

What jumped out at me in Smith's paper was his Oil Production curve which suddenly drops to zero - he says: "the total resource endowment is produced and exhausted just as the backstop technology becomes economic".
Aside from the Manna from Heaven "perfect substitute for the depletable resource (i.e., a backstop technology)" he is making assumptions about (or ignoring) the physics and economics of oil production.
He is essentially assuming that the world URR is contained in a big tank which can be drained as fast as desired to the last drop.
If he were to include in his model the physics, capital investment and time delay involved in oil production, especially getting out the last bit, (and the same factors wrt the "backstop technology") the result would look more like the real-world or Hubbert curves.
Might even make his research useful. 8O
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby dissident » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 18:01:04

Economists don't deserve any slack for ignoring physics. There are timescales for technological evolution and resource extraction that are completely independent from the will of the market. Reality does not bend to suit the market. Maybe if they dropped this idiotic dogma of goods and services produced by demand, they would generate some real research instead of theological fluff.
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby radon » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 19:02:47

A citation about GDP, a main indicator being measured and predicted by economics, borrowed from Armageddon on another thread (about hyperinflation):
GDP is about as useless and somebody taking out a loan for a million dollar house and calling themselves wealthy.


This is the point that highlights the predictive value of economics. Specifically, economics should not necessarily be viewed as measuring GDP reactively. Rather, economic models are used to pro-actively generate a certain GDP number.

Suppose you see a house that you like to buy and you have an 250k mortgage limit with your bank. You ask the price from the seller and he says that he has an alternative bidder whose bid is 200k. You bid 250k, but now a third bidder arrives and says that he is prepared to pay 300k. You go to the bank and ask to extend your credit limit to 350k. The bank, on whatever terms, agrees, and you win the auction. You buy the house, pay 350k, and those 350k go to the aggregate GDP number.

So, who or what was the deciding factor in setting up the GDP number? Supply/demand laws? No, this was the credit manager in the bank, who made the decision about your credit limit. He did it on the basis of economic models prevalent at the time of the decision. ( This is of course more complex than that - it also involves background checks, credit history, demographics etc. - but these may be safely assumed to be invariables for the purposes of simplicity). Thus, these economic models in fact generated a certain GDP number, rather than simply explained or forecast it. In this sense, the economics have a strong predictive, even preordaining, value.

Now, what are those economic models? These are in fact mostly financial models which consist of formal relations (NPVs, DCFs etc), assumptions and parameters set by the Fed and budget (interest rates, spending etc.). So these are mostly financial models, and this aspect of economics is almost the usual common sense Finance peppered with some formulas to look cleverly.

Now, what those in charge say to their populace is a different story. They have to hold their people positive and motivated, otherwise the order in the society will start crumbling. So they make exaggerated promises. This is the simplest way to keep people forward-looking and hold their morale intact. It is called "exercising persuasion skills" and practiced to this or that extent in any corporation (unless crisis or layoffs are in sight).

Those in charge do not tend to wish to take risks that come with such promises. Nicolas II agreed to assume the entire responsibility for the conduct of the war - and paid dearly. To cope with the issue of the deem consequences of an unfavorable battle outcome, the Roman Emperors deferred to the Deity: the had their priests to read prophecies on the guts of the sacrificed animals. If the prophecy was unfavorable, they would avoid the battle by all means. If the prophecy was favorable, they would charge the enemy. And then if the Romans would lose the battle, the Emperor could always execute the priests for their ineptness - the Deity could never be wrong. The priests would come and go, but the Emperor would go on untainted in the view of his subjects.

Similarly, those in charge now defer to the Deity of economics via the priestly economists. The economists may then be removed for doing a poor job, but the boss would go on (even though up to a certain point these days). Hence this aspect of the economics is more like the old good Astrology.

With regard to the influence of stimulus on the employment, GDP growth, and alike predictions - it is no more scientific then trying to predict whether Manchester United is going to win against Chelsea. Or the Boston team against Atlanta's. How can the jobs be created in the US without a commensurate loss of jobs in China or another relevant country? The Chinese will compete, and the outcome is no more clear than that of a sporting event, because this competition involves human beings whose behavior and persistence is inherently difficult to predict for all their inner complexity. This is the case even if the rules of the sporting game are simple and formal. So this aspect of economics is similar to Sweepstakes - you can bet on the strongest player, but is still exposed to loss on your bet. By contrast, physics deals with dead objects whose behavior is easily formalized, and therefore is easy to predict unambiguously.

This seems to be detached from the peak oil dimension, but in fact it is linked, via the notion that the growth is now a zero-sum competition game.

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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 19:16:38

Ignoring resource constraints is a problem of all economic schools of thought. Having said that Marx did actually attempt to analyse resource constraints to it to a certain extent, something that I missed initially.
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Xenophobe » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 19:20:52

Quinny wrote:Ignoring resource constraints is a problem of all economic schools of thought. Having said that Marx did actually attempt to analyse resource constraints to it to a certain extent, something that I missed initially.


Your initial statement is incorrect, and not just because of Marx. People write and teach from entire books on this topic, let alone the peer reviewed science journals. More schooling, less peaker dogma.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr= ... ts&f=false

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1914132

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr= ... ts&f=false

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2296369
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Lore » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 19:39:21

Tanada wrote:IWe have had housing bubbles several times in American history, and stock bubbles and you name it bubbles, they seem to be something the Federal Reserve bank is good at creating from time to time. However we always had cheap Coal and Petroleum to pull us back out on the other side. That doesn't seem to be working this time with oil closing in on $90.00 again.


I'm not sure where we have had housing bubbles in the past? Always having cheap coal and petroleum is rather relative to our immediate experience. Economists are trying to factor in some mystical techno-fix to the rescue since they believe that open markets have always produced solutions to problems. Of course they have assumed infinite resources to produce those solutions.
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Xenophobe » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 19:47:35

Lore wrote: Of course they have assumed infinite resources to produce those solutions.


All evidence to the contrary notwithstanding?
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 19:50:41

So Incorrect :) - do you even read the links you post - first page of your first link clearly states that there has been a lack of consideration of resource constraint in 20th century economic thinking.

Sometimes you really do seem short on sense. :)

Xenophobe wrote:
Quinny wrote:Ignoring resource constraints is a problem of all economic schools of thought. Having said that Marx did actually attempt to analyse resource constraints to it to a certain extent, something that I missed initially.


Your initial statement is incorrect, and not just because of Marx. People write and teach from entire books on this topic, let alone the peer reviewed science journals. More schooling, less peaker dogma.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr= ... ts&f=false

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1914132

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr= ... ts&f=false

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2296369
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Lore » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 19:57:31

Xenophobe wrote:
Lore wrote: Of course they have assumed infinite resources to produce those solutions.


All evidence to the contrary notwithstanding?


Cows give milk.
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Xenophobe » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 19:59:39

Quinny wrote:So Incorrect :) - do you even read the links you post - first page of your first link clearly states that there has been a lack of consideration of resource constraint in 20th century economic thinking.


Of course. But "a lack of consideration" does not mean "none", which is what you, and others, are saying.

From that same reference:

"The wheel has now turned full circle, in the last quarter of the 20th century no general text on economics will be complete without a reference to resource depletion."

Quinny wrote:Sometimes you really do seem short on sense. :)


Too bad you didn't read farther into the reference....doesn't seem like I'm the one short on sense. :lol: :lol:

More critical thought! (and better reading!)...less peak oil dogma!
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Xenophobe » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 20:00:34

Lore wrote:
Xenophobe wrote:
Lore wrote: Of course they have assumed infinite resources to produce those solutions.


All evidence to the contrary notwithstanding?


Cows give milk.


And peakers ignore references contrary to dogma?
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Re: The problem with economists from a “Peak Oil” point of v

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 14 Nov 2010, 20:03:01

So what significant schools of economics were started in the last quarter of the 20th century?

Xenophobe wrote:
Quinny wrote:So Incorrect :) - do you even read the links you post - first page of your first link clearly states that there has been a lack of consideration of resource constraint in 20th century economic thinking.


Of course. But "a lack of consideration" does not mean "none", which is what you, and others, are saying.

From that same reference:

"The wheel has now turned full circle, in the last quarter of the 20th century no general text on economics will be complete without a reference to resource depletion."

Quinny wrote:Sometimes you really do seem short on sense. :)


Too bad you didn't read farther into the reference....doesn't seem like I'm the one short on sense. :lol: :lol:

More critical thought! (and better reading!)...less peak oil dogma!
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