[Sixstrings]

I never bring personal stuff to this forum but I just feel like writing about something going on with me.

My 94 year old grandfather passed away recently. My father passed away before him, about five years ago. The whole family is pretty sure our grandfather was a millionaire. My grandpa had one surviving son, my uncle who never had children. I know for a fact this uncle is a millionaire (which is neither here nor there, but it hurts when someone with so much is greedy with small amounts of money).

My uncle was always my grandfather's favorite. My dad was my grandmother's favorite.. she passed away about twenty years ago. So anyway after my dad passed my sister asked our grandfather what would happen to what had been my father's share of the estate (he was in the old will 50 / 50). My sister says Grandpa told her he would change the will to include us. I can't be 100% sure about this though because I didn't witness him say that and never brought that up to him (I'm too proud to broach such a subject).

Plus to be frank my grandfather has always been emotionally distant, and never cared about anyone other than the one favorite son. I grew up in another state, so only saw him when I visited over the years. I always knew he was a real tightwad but that's okay I didn't visit him for any money. The man never spent one dime on me, I bought him food and cooked for him when I visited. I always liked it that way, that he could never say I ever hit him up for money like some other members of the family did.

Not once did I ask him for a dime. Which is why I'm shocked to find out I'm disinherited.. it's been a couple months since the funeral and I hadn't heard anything about a will so I finally called my uncle the executor. He coldly told me "there will be no distribution for your father's children. Those were Dad's wishes." Now before somebody replies here that for all I know Grandpa gave it to charity, let me just say no that didn't happen -- I know my family, and I know in my gut obviously my uncle just freaking got it all.

There were never harsh words or any bad blood between my grandfather and I, so it hurts that his wishes were that I don't get a thin dime or even one of my grandmother's quilts. I don't want to go into my personal situation, but I could have used a bit of help at this point in my life. For me the whole issue revolves around what the size of the estate is.. if it were just the house, then that's different -- I can understand leaving it to the one surviving son. But I'm 90% sure he was pretty wealthy -- he's been investing for FIFTY YEARS, and anyone still investing after that long most likely has something. But I don't know for sure because we never directly discussed his money -- it's not something I'd ever bring up with him.

So that's the rub.. I know my uncle is very well off -- it's obvious from his lifestyle. My grandfather was a mystery, more of a plain-living Warren Buffet type of wealthy person.

As for contesting the will, after doing some research I think it's hard to win in court -- you have to prove the will invalid, or prove one heir unduly influenced the elderly person to cut the others out. Plus in fairness I was not in the previous will, my father was. And in the end, morally I feel like it is up to the person who they choose to leave their estate to -- if they want to leave it to the dog, then that's their legal right. But morally, I'm pretty damn disappointed in Grandpa (RIP). He was the type to always "do the right thing by people," and I'm really very surprised in that respect.

This post is just about venting.. and I'm curious if anyone on the forum has had anything similar happen to them or in their family. Am I wrong for even expecting anything at all?

As for looking into retaining an attorney, I don't know what to do.. whether to go that route or just forget about all this.

EDIT: and emotionally I'm devastated. It's not even the money as much as just the insult of never having been really recognized as family by my Grandpa, the way most normal grandparents tend to give a damn about grandchildren. My grandmother by the way was a sweetheart.

[PrestonSturges]

Yes, this happens all the time, like constantly. It's a shocker when family members steal from each other, but any time you get 4 or more people together, one of them will go on a financially driven psychotic rampage given a chance.

Old people become fearful and paranoid, and anyone can convince them that their families are against them yadda yadda and con them into changing the will. As a result there are often multiple wills floating around. Also, if they play favorites, the manipulative parent may change their will over and over.

A friend went through this and there was an old family trust in the wifes name. She died and soon after the deadbeat son hired a meth head nurse and they persuaded the old man to leave "everything" to the son, and sure enough the dad soon died because he was being abused and possibly murdered. My friend hired a good lawyer who read the original trust, which had never been dissolved and did not transfer to the father. So the son cut himself out the will where he would have received 1/3 of the trust and only inherited his fathers clothes. But he was squatting in the family house, and just to settle, everyone went back to the original will so he got his third anyway. But he abused the shit out of his dad for nothing.

Probate fights aren't useful for estates of under $1 M because the lawyers will get everything.
If you want to see the will it should be available as a public document. After the person dies, their attorney takes the will to the county registrar of wills. The county has an interest because of the real estate tax and title issues. That's the official will unless there is some extraordinary circumstance, like a notorized will with a later date is found. The county has an interest in not letting properties be tied up in probate, so the bar for "undue influence" is pretty high.

In my friends case. undue influence was a possibility because the drug addict son was holed up in the house with dad and he hung no trespassing signs and files numerous false complaints against the extended family and made threats that were caught on tape. They had page after page just listing all the psychotic stuff this guy did.

[SeaGypsy]

Yep.
On both sides until the 1970's the eldest son got the lot on the death of his father. It was up to him what he shared and usually it was nothing. In the 1970's my great grandfather died with, lets just say enough to set up all of his 34 grandchildren at the time as millionaires. He gave the lot to his eldest son. that took 34 years of court cases to sort out. Lawyers got more than half. I never saw a cent and nor did my mother until her father died. He broke the mould and inherited all 6 of his children equally. Not a cent for grandchildren. My mother insists she will do likewise as she does not want a decades long courtcase as a momento.

My father died leaving his youngest children by his second wife a couple of tons of Venetian glass. No money at all. Nothing for his other 3 children or either of his 2 wives.

I could have had an extremely different life if my family had a different attitude to money. There are times when I have resented this tradition in my family, but overall as I age I appreciate that I have had to make my own way. When it's life and death my family will help, as in a ticket out of hell, but they will not prop up my ventures or those of any of my siblings. I have had a lot of involvement with Jewish families with exactly the opposite attitude. Supporting children financially well into their late twenties and early thirties.
I don't envy them, our lives are very different; I am an infinitely stronger person than any silver spooner I have known. This despite having far more money in my family than most.

Be carefull not to resent your grandfather for the wrong reasons. He may have just been following an old cultural norm. You didn't mention whether your dad was older or younger? My guess is younger.

[Pretorian]

Well thats a bummer dude. There is nothing like being screwed by your own family isnt it. I had a somewhat similar story, I dont want to go into details, but it also involved an old dude with no kids getting it all. Who wasnt even related by blood , he was a nephew of a family member that died almost 60 years before the will. My mother says about people like that "He wants to buy himself a golden coffin".
94 is a lot of years , your grandfather could be demented, or otherwise mentally challenged and could be easily influenced. I suggest talking with everybody he was in contact with for the last 5 years. If there is any indication of dementia/senility, or you could find somebody to say so, sue. Unless, of course, there is any hope that your uncle will leave you something. Forget about it if he is religious or into issues. Basically, where money starts, family ends, end of story.

[PrestonSturges]

The messsage to us was that we were on our own at 18, but the door was always open.
I think that as a result we were all much happier.

That being said, the people I know that are now affluent have gotten infusions of cash at critical times from wealthy parents.

[Sixstrings]

Yes, this happens all the time, like constantly. It's a shocker when family members steal from each other, but any time you get 4 or more people together, one of them will go on a financially driven psychotic rampage given a chance.

In my situation, I can't say my uncle "stole" from me. I knew my grandfather well enough to know my uncle was always his favorite of the two sons. It's possible my uncle encouraged him to make this decision, but I'd actually lean towards this really being my grandfather's wishes all on his own. Also, my grandpa was VERY sharp right up until he got sick two months before passing at 94. He was completely in control of his capacities, and my uncle isn't some lowlife he's very polite but neither is he going to get a sudden burst of altruism and "do the right thing" now that everything is his.

As a moral question, I wonder if I'm wrong to feel cheated? What I'm wondering is how most families handle this when there's a decent sized estate -- if one of the two sons pass before the elderly parent, is it common that everything is left to the surviving son even though if my father hadn't passed then 1/3 of his half would have eventually passed to me.

Old people become fearful and paranoid, and anyone can convince them that their families..

Ya that's not the case here, grandpa was very sharp.

If you want to see the will it should be available as a public document.

It's in another state, so I can't just go to the courthouse. Last I heard, no will has been filed yet but something has been done regarding probate. I'm not a lawyer so I don't understand all this. I have a brother up there, so even if I don't hire a lawyer then at least my brother can get a copy of the will (if it ever gets filed, it's been over two months now I don't understand how it's not been filed). Not that it even matters now that the executor (my uncle) has told me my father's children get nothing.

[Sixstrings]

You didn't mention whether your dad was older or younger? My guess is younger.

My father was younger than my uncle. The old will was set up 50/50. So apparently when my father passed (five years before my grandfather has passed), then the will was changed to just everything going to my uncle. I assume if the will hadn't been changed then me and my siblings would have a case in court.

Be carefull not to resent your grandfather for the wrong reasons. He may have just been following an old cultural norm. You didn't mention whether your dad was older or younger? My guess is younger.

It was never a close relationship. That's another issue here, that he was so emotionally distant through the years. He just never took an interest in his grandkids or great grandkids or great great grandkids. He was NOT the "grandfatherly" type. Having said that, I knew all this years ago and yet I'd still visit him up north and I'm glad we spent that time together. Even disinherited and thrown out with the trash, I wish we could have lived in the same area and spent more time together -- he really was remarkable, especially having all his mental faculties at advanced age.

[Sixstrings]

Well thats a bummer dude. There is nothing like being screwed by your own family isnt it.

Thanks for the emotional support. This is making me feel a bit better, getting this talked out.

94 is a lot of years , your grandfather could be demented, or otherwise mentally challenged and could be easily influenced. I suggest talking with everybody he was in contact with for the last 5 years..

I last saw him five years ago at my dad's funeral. My brother had been in constant contact with him (they lived in the same town). I last spoke with him a year ago.. I never called him very much just because he's never been the type to talk on the phone very long. He always liked visits, which I've done over the years.

As far as dementia, the remarkable thing is he had all his wits pretty much up to the end. When I talked to him a year ago he sounded the same as he did twenty years ago.

He lived a VERY long life and was blessed with excellent health through all 94 years right up until the last six months. I was pretty proud of him, mostly taking care of himself and keeping all his wits in such advanced age. And then he turns around and purposely leaves nothing to me and even my brother who saw him weekly. Why did he do that, it just hurts.

[papa moose]

Wills have been in the media a bit recently in Australia and as my mother died this time last year i had experience from a personal point of view.
Whilst it may not be the case in the US, here in Oz it does not matter legally what the conditions of the will are, the only real control the dying/deceased person has is to name their executor. It is then entirely to the discretion of the executor how to distribute the estate. (this is my understanding i am not a lawyer or any sort of expert)
FYI my mother's will passed 1/2 a dozen personal items to her sister and the rest to my father, if my father preceeded her i would get everything, unless i had also died in which case my children would get equal shares, if there were no children the estate would be divided equally between surviving nieces and nephews of both my parents.
Note, i am/are/was/is an only child.
I do not think my mother's will was in anyway unusual, my parents are/were quite comfortable after a life of hard work but are not "rich" by any 1st world standard.
I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse 6 but you did ask how other families operated.
I don't have a will yet, i feel that i would like my grandchildren to recieve their parents shares if their parents preceeded me (my eldest is 3 years old so this isn't a topic i have put much thought into). What will take more consideration is how i would deal with my stepson or his progeny.
Goodluck with your mourning process, it sounds like you loved your grandfather despite his distance and you are hurt by his lack of acknowledgement, as you said in OP even a quilt would have been a nice gesture. Your take on the situation seems quite reasonable to me.

[PrestonSturges]

Sixstrings, go to the bookstore and get a book on the subject.

I picked up this book 3rd edition at a yard sale for $5. It's written for paralegals so it was easy to understand (most the footwork with wills is done by the paralegals). It's in the 6th edition now, but you could probably find an older edition for $10. There is also a "Dummies" book.

http://www.amazon.com/Wills-Trusts-Esta ... 272&sr=8-1

[Sixstrings]

Goodluck with your mourning process, it sounds like you loved your grandfather despite his distance and you are hurt by his lack of acknowledgement, as you said in OP even a quilt would have been a nice gesture. Your take on the situation seems quite reasonable to me.

Well he was family. I can't say I "loved" him because he never wanted to get close, but I was very fond of him. Plus I look just like him.. the resemblance to his old pictures from the 1930's is a little uncanny.

In fairness, I know that if I had lived in the same area and could have had more regular contact then we'd have been closer. I do have good memories from childhood and making the effort to see him in later years (there's nothing like your grandparents house, can't help but feel like home).

By the way, my grandmother would not have wanted this. It's just a damn shame, but that's just who he was -- he openly favored my uncle his whole life, so that's just how it is even though I grew up in another state and should have never been a black sheep over things that happened 30 years before I was ever born. I'm not bitter about it though, again I knew him pretty well and I realized all this years ago. I'm still shocked though just because he was a fair type of person who seemed to care about doing the right thing in life. This isn't right, to cut us out and leave it to a millionaire son who doesn't need the money -- that's the rub, it wouldn't have made a financial dent for him to give us kids what was our deceased father's share that he didn't live long enough to get.

[PrestonSturges]

Last I heard, no will has been filed yet but something has been done regarding probate. I'm not a lawyer so I don't understand all this. I have a brother up there, so even if I don't hire a lawyer then at least my brother can get a copy of the will (if it ever gets filed, it's been over two months now I don't understand how it's not been filed). Not that it even matters now that the executor (my uncle) has told me my father's children get nothing.

OK, this sounds suspicious, get a lawyer pronto. If there's money at stake, this guy would probably be all over it like ugly on a monkey. He may be "petitioning for administration" at the probate court claiming there is no will and asking to be executor. You may want to "petition to prove the will" which would require the executor to show up and and confirm that the decedent is dead and the circumstances of the will such as the witnesses are in fact real people. These are not like lawsuits, these are just routine functions.

You'll get a lot of free advice from an estate lawyer because it you have a probate fight they'll stick you for $100,000. That's how they get you.

[Sixstrings]

You'll get a lot of free advice from an estate lawyer because it you have a probate fight they'll stick you for $100,000. That's how they get you.

I would rather a lawyer have it than my uncle. I got nothing, so I have nothing to lose. That's another thing that burns me.. what's been done here isn't even LEGALLY smart. The smart way to cut people out is to leave them a little bit; like $10k is nothing with a sizable estate. That way to get distribution they have to waive their right to contest. But if you leave them nothing then you don't get the waiver.. so me and my siblings have been purposely left nothing even though that's not even legally wise.

On the other hand.. I feel a moral dilemma if in my heart I believe my grandpa was in sound mind and these really are his wishes. Morally, the deceased's wishes should be respected. I dunno, I think I'll call some lawyers Monday and just look into it a bit.. might possibly be just be a small to retainer to at least get some basic information and then decide from there.

[pup55]

I finally called my uncle the executor. He coldly told me "there will be no distribution for your father's children. Those were Dad's wishes."

Well, the correct response to that should have been "in that case you do not mind sending me a copy of the will where I can see that for myself".... this statement "those were dad's wishes" does not mean squat if it is not in writing...

Many of these wills are simple enough to be read by a normal human, so if you have a copy of the most current version you should be able to get the whole scoop....

In many cases, if the estate was to be divided 50/50 between the uncle and your dad, your dad's share should be split among his heirs....unless there is a clause in the will that says otherwise...there may be a clause in the will that says exactly that.

Several things have to happen. The probate thing is first.... a notice is put into the paper that Grandpa's estate is about to be settled, and any creditors he may have floating around have an opportunity to come to the court and get what they are owed.

Then, there has to be some determination about the authenticity of the will. There is a brief court hearing....Chances are, if your dad was a beneficiary in Grandpa's original will, he received a copy at some point in the past, and it is probably in the mountain of paperwork that he no doubt left you to sort out....even if not, once a judge determines that the will is authentic, a copy is filed at the local county courthouse, so you can get access to it at that point...even then, there is some time built in so that people like you can get the actual contents of the will.....There might be multiple wills, in some of these big families there could be all sorts of people coming out of the woodwork with a will...

Note: If there was a new will, after your Father's death, you should have received a copy of it, since you were probably beneficiaries in the original will...

The executor: He has to sign a document pledging under possible criminal penalty that he will execute the will as written, and if the lawyer for the estate is any good at all, he will encourage the executor not to try any funny stuff... So an additional option would be to give the lawyer for the estate a friendly call, make some inquiries as to the contents of the will....Uncle could be just BS-ing you.

So you have plenty of options at this point, they do not require too much effort or money on the part of the lawyer, but the main project ought to be to get a copy of the will and see for yourself....

I just went through this stuff myself.... there were "wishes" on pup28's will that weren't in writing... there was some discretion as to how things were to be handled, certain things had to be done so that all of the parties were directly communicated with.... everything documented...family agreements signed so that anything that was not explicitly written out in the will was done with the knowledge of the rest of the family...so your uncle might not like it, the fact is, it might not be 100 percent up to him....The will itself is Grandpa's voice from the grave, and until you know what that says, there is still some question...

If Uncle is not cooperative in giving you a copy of the will, then that is a red flag in and of itself....

and if there is a lot of money involved, so much stickier the problem becomes.

So, call Uncle and ask for a copy of the will, and if that is unsuccessful, hire a lawyer and let him do it...

p.s. Don't be surprised to learn that despite appearances, Uncle is dead broke and needs the money. Stranger things have happened. Maybe Uncle would be a little more generous otherwise, and give you and your siblings a little love...

[Xenophobe]

This post is just about venting.. and I'm curious if anyone on the forum has had anything similar happen to them or in their family.

Nothing rips apart a family so well as someone with money in the family dying. It doesn't even matter HOW the money is divvied up, it just turns into a mess. I haven't seen a family make it through in a reasonable way yet. Not once.

[KingM]

This post is just about venting.. and I'm curious if anyone on the forum has had anything similar happen to them or in their family.

Nothing rips apart a family so well as someone with money in the family dying. It doesn't even matter HOW the money is divvied up, it just turns into a mess. I haven't seen a family make it through in a reasonable way yet. Not once.

My family has done fine. The company my great-grandfather founded is worth over half a billion dollars now and still going strong. It's a large, large family, and roughly 1/3 gets donated to charity with each generation. Still, a fair amount will probably reach me in the end. So far it has been passed on with complete equality between each sub-family and everyone still gets alone fine. I do see some minor squabbling over heirlooms, but nothing serious.

It helps that nobody takes the money for granted. Everyone is expected to either make his own way in life or earn his keep in the family business and so almost everyone is comfortable on their own, before any inheritance comes into play. That's a good thing, because unearned wealth can be damaging.

[PrestonSturges]

This post is just about venting.. and I'm curious if anyone on the forum has had anything similar happen to them or in their family.

Nothing rips apart a family so well as someone with money in the family dying. It doesn't even matter HOW the money is divvied up, it just turns into a mess. I haven't seen a family make it through in a reasonable way yet. Not once.

My family has done fine. The company my great-grandfather founded is worth over half a billion dollars now and still going strong. It's a large, large family, and roughly 1/3 gets donated to charity with each generation. Still, a fair amount will probably reach me in the end. So far it has been passed on with complete equality between each sub-family and everyone still gets alone fine. I do see some minor squabbling over heirlooms, but nothing serious.

Read the story of Lord Conrad Black, how he was there when his father "fell through a banister" at their home.

Let's just say even people with good security die sudden bizarre deaths when there's an inheritance. This happens a lot.

Not to pop the balloon about "making your own way," but that hardly holds unless they've changed theirr name and erased all public connection to their family, like joining the Witness Protection program. Looking up some folks I worked with in the past who are wheeling and dealing, having a dad worth more than $50,000,000 pretty much guarantees employment at prestigious jobs for life as long as they can get a bachelor's degree (needless to say without busing tables) and drag themselves into the office 2 or 3 days a week. That's how someone goes from intern to VP by age 27. Nepotism has become much much much more important the last couple years, and someone from a middle class background is likely to get laid off for someone right out of school with even moderately valuable family connections (dad's a funding officer at DOE).

[pup55]

I haven't seen a family make it through in a reasonable way yet. Not once.

By the way, I agree with this statement completely. It does not matter how much or how little money there is involved...

In a lot of these cases, especially where there is a strong father figure involved, there are plenty of long-simmering disputes among the generations below... and once the father figure is removed (keeping in mind that the father figure may be a mother figure) there is naturally a lot of chaos. I believe that Shakespeare himself was tuned into this...was he not?

These people did not get to where they are by being sweethearts... a lot of them are irritating, in fact...

So a lot of people use this as an opportunity to settle scores, to poke one another in the eye, and a lot of other stuff just because they can....

I happen to think those old timers know exactly what is going on.... they deliberately leave things vague, for no other reason than they do not have the energy to sort all of that stuff out when they are alive, and do not really want to stir up the hornet's nest. In the case of pup28 there was a lot of stuff going on, he could not decide what to do during his lifetime about it, and therefore more or less deliberately left things the way they were... and left it to good ol' pup55 to sort out the family politics....

Like I said, it does not matter how much or how little money is involved. It leaves the realm of logic and gets into emotion....resentment... grudges and everything else

If you are talking about a 9 figure estate, then by all means get with the lawyer promptly....any lawyer in the country will take that case...you will have plenty left over for yourself and your siblings and other generations, and you are entitled to a piece of the action in absence of any documentation....

There are plenty of options...

[PrestonSturges]

Another thing to determine is who the uncles lawyer is and who the estate lawyer is, contact a local law firm and find out what their reputations are. There are shysters that make their living helping heirs scam the estate. Some shysters are good at what they do (uh-oh) and some of them will screw up the scam because they suck or they are drunks. Never hesitate to attack the other guys lawyer - they really really aren't used to it. The trick is to find a lawyer willing to go after them. If the opposing lawyer has a good reputation, your lawyer will always treat him like a long lost brother.

If the estate lawyer changed near the end that is a bad sign, a possible ringer brought in by the uncle by having g'pa sign a document in a drug induced haze. The original estate lawyer may have been paying very little attention to what was happening in the family - they aren't hovering to protect anyone's interest. My friend's dad signed some papers on a week the dad was recovering from surgery in the hospital - apparently someone snuck him out of the hospital to the new lawyers office and had him sign a bunch of papers, which he had no memory of.

[PrestonSturges]

I haven't seen a family make it through in a reasonable way yet. Not once.

By the way, I agree with this statement completely. It does not matter how much or how little money there is involved...

First of all people under grief regress as psychologists say, and if they have any personality flaws, they may go more or less psychotic even though they may be fine normally.

People get the idea that crap like Hummels sold in the Sunday paper supplements (little girl on fence with bluebird) are valuable, when they are really worth $7 on ebay.

Lawyers can tell stories about people chasing each other around the hospital parking lot with guns.

Sometimes decedents really do liquidate to prevent the kids from fighting. A very old guy offered to sell my friend a 200 acre mountaintop with two small farms, two lakes, three streams, marketable timber, orchards, for $200,000. He did not want his kids to fight over it. My friend rushed to have the papers drawn up, but by the next week the owner had died. Too bad, the timber was good enough to have paid off the mortgage just by thinning the trees.