[mos6507]

I wish I could be more eloquent in expressing this idea, but I realized some time ago that where you fall ideologically has a lot to do, if not EVERYTHING to do with trust. How much trust do you have, and in which institutions?

Doomers tend to skew tinfoil because they're trust in established institutions is shot. Whether they're overcompensating by becoming paranoid is an endless debate, but I understand the intersection-point, and why you might have doomers who on the one hand believe in AGW and peak oil, and on the other, suck down Alex Jones kool-aid or coast-to-coast nonsense. It's because when you lose your trust in the ministries of information, then you are stuck fumbling around, constructing your reality based on your own feeble perspective of the world around you.

The same would be true of the back to the land and anti-civ types. If you feel that BAU is built on a house of cards, that large institutions are corrupt and incompetent, then you will start retreating from any sort of dependence on 'the system' in anticipation of short or permanent disasters.

But where trust has failed almost universally now, is our trust in our financial institions, and to a slightly lesser extent, government which we hold accountable for the fate of the economy and the job market.

That the voting public would, perhaps, vote against its own interests by attacking government through sending tea-partiers to washington who will only further deregulate big businesses is besides the point. The intention of the people in the mid-terms, or in the revolutions in the middle-east, is to express a vote of no-confidence in the status quo.

Then you have the issue of trust in our support system. The BP spill, the string of natural disasters from maybe Katrina onward, the shakiness of the global grain market, the nuclear meltdown, all these events erode confidence in the system's resilience.

It just seems that whether you are a raging denier who keeps talking about climategate, or a greenie talking about the Koch brothers, you're speaking the same language, which is that of distrust.

Trust is hard to build and easy to lose, but it is vitally important for a functional society. Trust was the central theme in the Godfather movies, for instance. If you bet wrong in trusting the people around you, you'd wind up suddenly dead. Trust is the reason terrorism is so effective. If you don't trust that public places are safe, that a bomb could go off any minute, you'll walk around in constant fear.

What we've enjoyed in the west all this time is an unprecedented period of comfort in which we simply didn't have to worry about our basic needs. That this came at a high externalized cost wasn't clear to us, just that we were comfortable and safe and care-free.

We're now in a period in which a great many aspects of our lives is vulnerable. Tainted foods, cadmium in toys, economic collapse, the vagaries of eaarth, pesticides & GMOs, energy, geopolitical instability, infrastructure rot...

Even those of us who pray to the altar of BAU feel this increasing vulnerability, but we go off in a million different directions to try to address of it, most of them counter-productive.

If the world as we know it is built on trust, once that trust goes away, I really wonder what's left in this crowded world besides people just fighting each other over every last trivial difference, perceived threat, conspiracy, and misunderstanding.

You see it in this forum, which I think is merely a microcosm of the mood of the country, if not the planet. Everybody knows that the world is screwed up, and everybody's got their own flawed explanation for why that is, who is at fault, and what should be done about it.

I think the world functioned effectively in its current state when there was greater common purpose. Once things fractionalize the way I see this happening, I wonder whether anything good will come out of it. It's one thing to keep bringing up Rome and how in some ways its dissolution was a good thing. It's another to have to live through a dark ages.

At some point the breakdown of trust has to be followed by the restoration of trust in some new institution or new paradigm, something a little more than the simplistic anarchism-peddling I see here.

[Ludi]

At some point the breakdown of trust has to be followed by the restoration of trust in some new institution or new paradigm,

Most people don't seem very interested in a new paradigm.

[Plantagenet]

At some point the breakdown of trust has to be followed by the restoration of trust in some new institution or new paradigm.

Not necessarily.

Things might just go to heck to such a degree that the whole society collapses.

I was just at the Jericho archeological site a few days ago----it goes back to 8,000 BCE---its the site of the earliest city walls and agriculture on earth. The archeological site shows that multiple human societies have come and gone...often with hundred or thousands of years between them when the site was depopulated and unoccupied.

The same thing could happen again----in fact its the basic pattern of human civilization---they develop---they collapse or are conquered and destroyed----and then after a long period of time something different develops.

[vision-master]

Göbekli Tepe dates back to 11,500 years ago......

[mos6507]

its the basic pattern of human civilization---they develop---they collapse or are conquered and destroyed

So let's sit back in our SUVs and enjoy the ride!

[Ludi]

So let's sit back in our SUVs and enjoy the ride!

I find folks at other messageboards who are very interested in different ways to live, but here a lot of folks seem to have the attitude "there's no other way to live" or "we're just doomed so there's no point in being interested in other ways to live." Or other paradigms are just tree-huggy fairy dust.

[Plantagenet]

its the basic pattern of human civilization---they develop---they collapse or are conquered and destroyed

So let's sit back in our SUVs and enjoy the ride!

Until we get some presidential leadership,its rather unlikely that that the US will take the kind of steps necessary to deal with peak oil.

It isn't going to happen by magic....the steps the US should be taking NOW only become harder as Obama and his cronies continue to waste time and treasure on their efforts to prop up BAU at any cost

[Graeme]

Mos, I saw this article yesterday. Thought I'd post it here coz it fits into your theme. However, I wonder whether it's utopia we are looking for and not finding. . .

A cloud of nuclear mistrust spreads around the world

It is unprecedented: four atomic reactors in dire trouble at once, three threatening meltdown from overheating, and a fourth hit by a fire in its storage pond for radioactive spent fuel.


All day yesterday, dire reports continued to circulate about the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, faced with disaster after Japan's tsunami knocked out its cooling systems. Some turned out to be false: for example, a rumour, disseminated by text message, that radiation from the plant had been spreading across Asia. Others were true: that radiation at about 20 times normal levels had been detected in Tokyo; that Chinese airlines had cancelled flights to the Japanese capital; that Austria had moved it embassy from Tokyo to Osaka; that a 24-hour general store in Tokyo's Roppongi district had sold out of radios, torches, candles and sleeping bags.

But perhaps the most alarming thing was that although Naoto Kan, Japan's Prime Minister, once again appealed for calm, there are many – in Japan and beyond – who are no longer prepared to be reassured.

independent

[americandream]

Two things at play here:

1 Cultural conditioning. Now frayed at the edges for a variety of reasons including:

a) massive rips offs as the caviare classes further bloat themselves notwithstanding libertarian calls for moderation by the working masses of their expectations of decent health and education;

b) smack in the face common sense as we see the consequences of for example, constructing nuclear reactors in the most unstable country on earth where one little tectonic burp threatens to turn the place into a flourescent outpost.

2 The terminal nature of the system that drives all these various forces and it's eventual tryst with its destiny.

As 2 further degrades, 1 will fall away like the cynicism that often follows the heady days of romance.

[Cog]

Why would I want to trust something Mos would trust?

[mos6507]

Why would I want to trust something Mos would trust?

What do you trust?

[Timo]

Trust is a BIG part of making a civilization work, but all trust, and the reward of respect that trust enables, must be earned. In order to earn someone's trust, that requires a degree of experience between two or more entities where one party proves their trust-worthiness to the other. If one party fails to demonstrate themselve to be trustworthy, then that trust is not earned. We all have our own experiences in life, and through our own experiences, we learn that some entities can be trusted, and others prove themselves to be untrustworthy. To some degree, there is a legitimate nature v. nurture element that precipitates one's willingness to place their trust in another party, meaning that if you were rasied to be a religious zealot, chances are you will be a religious zealot as an adult. This isn't always true, of course. I'm a PK. Anyone know what a PK is? Suffice it to say that all PKs have a certain reputation that goes contrary to the ways we were raised. But that's TMI. Anyway, as a society, through our own experiences, we learn whom to trust and whom not to trust. Thus, through my own experience, i've learned not to trust Fox News because they have proven themselves, via all objective measures, not to be trustworthy. The same goes with a great number of Republicans. I have learned through experience that i cannot trust hardly a word that comes out of their mouths. And a caution, here: don't assume that i trust MSNBC and Democrats completely. The same logical assessments apply both ways. Another big part of the development of trust is our own individual aspirations. What exactly do we want to become, as a society? If someone espouses the doctrine of everyone fend for themselves, and bomb, bomb, bomb Iran, that's not a society that i choose to be a part of, so i will place less trust in someone who shouts and screams that that is the only way forward. I disagree, and will place my trust in someone who says things more in line with the type of society where i want to live. I choose to progress, not regress, and i will place my trust accordingly.

Good discussion, though, even though i'm clearly right, and everyone else is completely wrong. Right or wrong, everyone has their own opinions.

[ian807]

It's all about realistic trust.

F'rinstance, is it in the self-interest of the realtor/used car dealer/politician/etc. to lie? Then yes, I have a near absolute trust in the fact that he/she is lying.

It's just how it is. Truth from just about anyone is coincidental, and only occurs when it happens to serve the purposes of the speaker, with appropriate allowances made for emotional bias, cognitive bias, ignorance and stupidity.

Seeking reliable information is a bit like picking poppy seeds out of sand. Takes a while. Seeking a person who will actually do something expected is even tougher.

As for trusting the benevolence of my government, school, police, religion or any other institution, I haven't really done that since adolescence and reasoning kicked in at about 13 or so. Perhaps I'm contributing to the downfall of western civilization.

[Cog]

Why would I want to trust something Mos would trust?

What do you trust?

Myself and that is about it. Not government, not self-proclaimed experts who think they know what is best for me, and defintely not anyone on this board.

[Livewire713]

Why would I want to trust something Mos would trust?

What do you trust?

Myself and that is about it. Not government, not self-proclaimed experts who think they know what is best for me, and defintely not anyone on this board.

I'm sorry Cog, it must be a lonely and frustrating life not being able to trust anyone except yourself.

[Narz]

At some point the breakdown of trust has to be followed by the restoration of trust in some new institution or new paradigm,

Most people don't seem very interested in my new paradigm.

Fixed that for you.

[Cog]

Why would I want to trust something Mos would trust?

What do you trust?

Myself and that is about it. Not government, not self-proclaimed experts who think they know what is best for me, and defintely not anyone on this board.

I'm sorry Cog, it must be a lonely and frustrating life not being able to trust anyone except yourself.

I tell myself jokes to keep myself amused. They are funnier that way.

[mos6507]

At some point the breakdown of trust has to be followed by the restoration of trust in some new institution or new paradigm,

Most people don't seem very interested in my new paradigm.

Fixed that for you.

Is there somebody else's new paradigm they're interested in, then?

[mos6507]

Myself and that is about it.

Good luck with that plan: just you, your bunker, canned beans, and a gunslit to peer out of.

[mos6507]

I tell myself jokes to keep myself amused.

There are drugs you can take for that.