mos6507 wrote:radon wrote:In all seriousness, for various reasons, the problem of alcoholism in Russia tends to be quite noticeably overstated.
So you don't take this article from 5 days ago seriously?Russians consume about 18 liters of pure alcohol per person a year, more than twice the internationally recommended limit, a rate that President Dmitri A. Medvedev has called a “natural disaster.” Thanks in part to lifelong heavy drinking, the life expectancy for the average Russian man is now about 60 years, just below that of Haiti.
Methinks you are engaging in simple spin-control.
I think this is a good and informative article, but certainly not a comprehensive analysis of the issue. The problem of alcoholism in Russia is indeed serious. However, there is a tendency to exaggerate its gravity.
Besides, this problem is probably also serious in other countries with high per capita rates of alcohol consumption. And it contributes to reduction in longevity there.
mos6507 wrote:Other than the fact that the entire country seems to be perpetually depressed and culturally committed to the tradition of slow suicide from alcoholism.
This statement of yours, for example, is certainly a quite noticeable overstatement of the scale of the issue.
Couple observations regarding the article:
It says that Mr. Medveded proclaimed that the alcoholism is a "natural disaster" in Russia (in fact he called it a "national calamity"). Many other rulers in Russia did the same over the course of the past century, as we can read in the article. On the cultural level, to denounce the alcohol abuse and launch some sort of real or imagined campaign against is actually a sign of a well-mannered ruler committed to good governance in Russia. So expect whoever takes the high office in Russia to condemn the evil of alcohol at some point, sparing no catchy word for it.
Have you seen a video of the parliamentary debates in Britain? The way a parliamentary fraction approves the words of their speaker may seem strange for an outsider, but this is apparently an old tradition there. Similarly, we have this alcohol-denouncement tradition in Russia. Besides, it resonates well with the electorate, especially the women.
But in fact Medvedev has done the right things in this area and they bore some fruits - no fundamental change but nevertheless. But this is beyond the scope of ours.
I found the
official script of his meeting with the Ministers where he discussed this on his official president's site. Unfortunately, the English version does not have this record but hopefully you can use the google translator to read it if indeed interested.
As I said earlier, there are various reasons that lead to a distorted view of the problem of alcoholism in Russia - now I will try to list them below.
1. Guesstimating. You will see in the script I linked that Medvedev indeed referred to 18 litres of alcohol per capita per annum. Yet, scroll down - Ms. Golikova, the Social Minister, informed that the alcohol consumption spiked in Russia at this level of 18 litres in 1995, but it now declined to 10 litres. She however confirmed that certain "experts" put the present consumption at 18 litres. The 10 litres level is consistent with the that in the table that I linked above earlier in the thread, putting Russia in the modest 20th position in the world ranks.
(EDIT: By the way, Ms. Golikova reported some long-term dynamics of Russian alcohol consumption - you can read that in the script. If true, these long term data totally discredit the myth about the Russian "cultural commitment to the tradition of slow suicide from alcohol", as she actually pointed out herself later during the meeting. According to her, Russian consumption in 1914-1917 was 3.4 liters pa per capita, which was one of the lowest in Europe).
But the point here is that there are a number of varying estimates of alcohol consumption in place. I have reviewed some in the web and those that tend to put Russia in the higher ranks include some sort of subjective guesstimates with regard to "unrecorded volumes" or alike. If you request some sort of the likes of transparency international to come up with a guesstimating methodology, they may produce one that would send a country's per capita alcohol consumption sky-high for you.
I have read quite a few articles on this in relation to Russia over the course of these years, and generally the researches (to their surprise) tended to find out that Russia tails behind a number of the developed countries.
The New York Times article that you linked preferred to cite that high 18 litres number.
2. Extrapolation of the past. Indeed, as Ms. Golikova pointed out, alcohol abuse indeed spiked in the "reformist" 1990s. I do not need statistics or newspaper articles, I observed it first hand. It became very pervasive, entire families got destroyed and people even perished. Along with it, drugs suddenly became a big issue. Drug abuse was virtually non-existent in the Soviet times and then, all of a sudden, it became rampant. People were routinely finding needles that youngster drug abusers dropped by the entrances in their house blocks.
From my personal observations, this is no longer such an overwhelming issue as it was in the 1990s. It was usual to see a drunk person or several of them sleeping on the street every other day at that time. But by now, I do not remember when I saw such a picture the last time.
3. Social visibility. Unlike in other countries, it has not been unacceptable or undesirable to demonstrate openly heavy drinking habits in Russia. So, what people in other countries tend to do privately or even conceal, Russians do openly and feel no problem with it. This has been changing lately. A few years ago it was normal to drink beer while taking train in the Moscow underground, then it gradually became socially undesirable, and later, a while ago, it was explicitly banned by law.
Also, in general, Russians tend to readily report their troubles to outsiders and total strangers, while people in other cultures tend to not disclose them.
4. Physical visibility. Russia is highly urbanised, and in the most important urban areas the alcoholism problem is very visible. To a substantial extent, this is due to the problem of homeless or otherwise marginalized people. These people tend to be alcohol abusers in Russia, and they tend to inhabit very visible areas such as those in the vicinity of open markets or bus/train/underground stations. This makes this problem very, if not disproportionally, visible to everyone, including those who write reports.
There are reasons why the homeless drink so heavily in Russia. The climate is totally ruthless towards them. If you can sit by the basement in London asking for spare change and knowing that you would somehow make it through the winter night with your woolen cover, in Russia a winter night may bring you an irrecoverable damage to your health, if not death. Even those with strong spirits can find themselves seeking to dissolve their grief in increasing doses of alcohol in these circumstances.
5. Substituent issues. The article you linked compares 40 000 annual Russian deaths from alcohol poisoning to 300 in the US. What it fails to mention is that the overwhelming majority of the Russian deaths is not due to the alcohol poisoning per se, but rather due to poisoning by surrogates such as methyl spirits. This is not an alcohol abuse issue, this is a trade and quality compliance issue. Also, many related deaths and injuries relate to situations where drunken people drive or engage in violence. This is not as much an as alcohol abuse problem as it is a problem of loose behavioral norms and ethics in the society.
By the way, the US is hardly a best test case for comparison - the US alcohol consumption seems to be exemplary in its moderation.
6. Stratification visibility. Consumption in various countries tends to focus on certain drinks stratified by their alcohol content: the gossip is that Germans prefer bear and apfel wine, the French - red wines, the Russians - vodka and strong spirits. Also, weaker spirits tend to be consumed continuously but over a prolonged period of time, while stronger spirits are consumed briskly over a short time span. If this is the case, than the Russian-type drinking habits may manifest themselves more remarkably and memorably for an outside observer, again making them highly visible, although their longer term effect would not be very different from other countries' types.
7. Stereotypes. The factors listed above, especially what I called "the social visibility", have led to development of a persistent stereotype. This is kind of self-explanatory.
mos6507 wrote: Maybe because it doesn't seem to be impacting their health to the same degree. whereas Russia is, as many doomers keep mentioning, going through a population "die off" (which in my mind is a good thing in the long run).
The fact that the Irish are going to live longer in the future does not necessarily mean that Russians are not going to live longer in the future. In fact, life expectancy in Russia plummeted in 1990s, in the time of the post-Soviet reform. In 1980s, when Gorbachev launched his anti-alcohol campaign, the life expectancy was fairly high, though by far not the highest in the world. Nowadays, the life expectancy has recovered a bit after the 1990s ordeal.
Japan (long term trend, nothing to do with Fukushima), Italy and some other European countries are below replication ratios, and see their populations diminishing, even if at a slower rate. Interestingly, it is the men's life expectancy that dropped significantly in Russia in 1990, the women's remained relatively stable.
Russia is not exactly the most benign place from the point of view of the longevity records. Wars, traumatism, harsh climate - all contribute to risks to human life. In 1990s Russia fought two wars on its own territory and was in this or that way involved in a number of military conflicts elsewhere. Over a long term, the alcohol abuse is by far not the single most important risk contributing to the reduction in life expectancy.
On the other hand, Russia boasts some areas with one of the best longevities in the world, such as the Caucasus mountains, for example.
In conclusion, my point was not that of the substance, but rather that of the form. There is no question that the alcohol problem does exist - the issue is that it is not always presented in a balanced way.
Call it a spin-control if you like.
Methinks that the devil is in detail, as usual.
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