[mattduke]

But imagine if we ran our supermarkets the way we run our schools. Due to the importance of equality of opportunity to buy groceries and to protect children from starvation due to negligent and ignorant parents buying the wrong groceries, we have government provided supermarkets, financed by taxes, at which shoppers can get a basket of groceries for free.
Customers are forced to shop at the supermarket in their suburb, and can only change to another government supermarket with permission, and subject to room at that supermarket. There are private supermarkets, but customers have to pay for their groceries there. Entry of new supermarkets is heavily regulated. New supermarkets are not allowed in areas of declining population. The government favours private supermarket proposals from the large national chains.

http://www.schoolchoices.org/roo/harris1.htm

[crude_intentions]

I love the arguments people make about the condition of K-12 education in America and that we just need to throw more money into to make it work.

I went to a private school. A rebel flag waving white flight school that was established in the 70's after integration (At the time I went we had black as well as Hispanic, Indians, and Asians students). Morning Prayer over the intercom, teachers that could spank you, a principle that could spank you, and in my case parents that would spank me if either of the latter had.
Oh and if you got pregnant they booted you out.

Material and condition wise we were worse off than the local public school. The school itself was made of concrete block no insulation hot in the summer cold in the winter. We had no central AC just wall units in every classroom. The books were old and reused year after year. I had an 8th grade U.S history books that only went to up to the Regean presidency and my 8th grade year was in 1997!
We had only one principle (The vice-principle was the chemistry teacher who would spank you if the principles couldn’t be found, or if his arms happened to be tired). No teachers union and half if not more of the teachers did not have a teaching or a bachelors degree.

But, my school outperformed (and still does) the local public schools in every metric. From graduation rates to ACT & SAT scores etc.
So here's the question what made it the better school?

P.S Here's a static that I find interesting. Children that are home schooled scores higher on standardized testing than your average public school student. That means your average mom can churn out a better educated student than a licensed teacher with a master’s degree.

[Sixstrings]

How about this Mattduke.. I don't have kids so why should my taxes go towards a voucher for your kids' private christian school education? Continuing the supermarket analogy, that would be like taxing me to pay for your Sam's Club / Costco membership -- a private club supermarket that's not open to the general public.

I also don't like it that they don't teach evolution in those schools.. I don't want my tax money going to creationism. Not fair.

[PrestonSturges]

Also, the plan in Michigan is to exempt the schools from performance testing.

It sounds like a money laundring scheme with an unlimited potential for abuse and corruption, like most privatization schemes.

Of course, someone will ask for the funds to start a radical madrassa and someone else will ask for voucher money to start a 100% creationist free school. Then we'll see some political fireworks.

[Loki]

But, my school outperformed (and still does) the local public schools in every metric. From graduation rates to ACT & SAT scores etc.
So here's the question what made it the better school?

Parental involvement in their children's lives. Duh. Pretty fucking obvious explanation dude.

Public school children with involved parents would undoubtedly do just as well as they would in your private school.

Oh, and it's "statistic," not "static." But what would I know, I was publicly schooled from kindergarten through grad school. My ACT and LSAT scores were well within the 90th percentile, how about yours?

As for the OP, I'll be sure to pray to the Invisible Hand to smite those evil public school teachers dead. Also hoping for a pony this Christmas.

[mos6507]

For some reason the home schooling thing is inextricably tied up with doomerism. The whole "trust" issue again. People attribute public school to brainwashing and feel the only way to undo that is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I've never understood the need for that. We all grow up in this culture whether our kids are sitting in the schoolroom or just fraternizing with their peers or watching TV or browsing the internet. Unless you move to a commune somewhere and live like the Amish with no contact with the outside world, you're going to be influenced by "mother culture". It's in the air they breathe. Better not try to hold back the tide and just roll with it.

[mattduke]

How about this Mattduke.. I don't have kids so why should my taxes go towards a voucher for your kids' private christian school education? Continuing the supermarket analogy, that would be like taxing me to pay for your Sam's Club / Costco membership -- a private club supermarket that's not open to the general public.

I also don't like it that they don't teach evolution in those schools.. I don't want my tax money going to creationism. Not fair.

Agree 100%!

[mattduke]

The public supermarkets in each State are run by huge Departments of Supermarkets. Pay, staffing and working conditions are centrally determined, by negotiations with the unions. Some regions find it difficult to attract staff. Employment conditions are strictly regulated, with rigid job classifications (check-out operator, shelf-stacker, trolley retriever, price labeller). Hours worked and tasks are strictly mandated. The number of staff in each position in supermarkets is strictly regulated. Pay rises tend to be uniform across all classifications. Although the public supermarkets seem to be overmanned, particularly when compared to the private sector, checkout queues are much longer and shelves are frequently empty.
Managers find it difficult to order supplies on time, experiment with new suppliers, fix windows, get supermarkets painted or build new facilities. All these decisions are overseen by central office and involve much bureaucracy. Most spending goes on salaries. Cuts in the equipment budget mean that shopping trolleys are very old, most with three or four wobbly wheels. Home delivery has been abandoned as a cost-cutting measure. Many ideas introduced in the private sector, such as express checkouts, and checkout scanning devices have not been adopted in the public sector due to union opposition.
There are large differences in quality of supermarkets between suburbs, the rich areas seem to have the best supermarkets. Quality of supermarket is an important factor in determining where to live.

More from the essay.
http://www.schoolchoices.org/roo/harris1.htm

[crude_intentions]

Parental involvement in their children's lives. Duh. Pretty fucking obvious explanation dude.

How do you force that. How do you force a parent to be responsible for their child.
Every argument I've ever heard when it comes to education involves throwing more money at the problem. When I went tution rates were around $300 a month ($365 today). That means the max amount of money that could have been spent per pupil was $3500 a year ($4380 today). Right now the average cost per student in Public School is around $9000 a year ($22,000 in D.C).

Oh, and it's "statistic," not "static."

Forgive me for making a spelling error at 12:30 in the morning on an internet forum.

As far as my test scores I don't remember my ACT scores but I know scored around 1100 on my SAT and I graduated at the bottom of my class.

I don't think public schools are evil. I just think the current system is inefficient costly and does not serve the students or the nation. I once attended church with two ladies who were public school teachers. Their biggest complaints about working in the school system. Were Bureaucratic Administration, Unrurly students, Parents who had to be threatened with legal action to force them to show up at a P.T meeting. And the fear of legal action from parents if they did anything to discipline the child. (Why do you think schools have zero-tolerance and call the police when a student is acting unruly)

[vision-master]

How about this Mattduke.. I don't have kids so why should my taxes go towards a voucher for your kids' private christian school education? Continuing the supermarket analogy, that would be like taxing me to pay for your Sam's Club / Costco membership -- a private club supermarket that's not open to the general public.

I also don't like it that they don't teach evolution in those schools.. I don't want my tax money going to creationism. Not fair.

You still believe in this crap (human evolution/ linear line from ape to modern man) ?

[PrestonSturges]

For some reason the home schooling thing is inextricably tied up with doomerism. The whole "trust" issue again. People attribute public school to brainwashing and feel the only way to undo that is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I've never understood the need for that. We all grow up in this culture whether our kids are sitting in the schoolroom or just fraternizing with their peers or watching TV or browsing the internet. Unless you move to a commune somewhere and live like the Amish with no contact with the outside world, you're going to be influenced by "mother culture". It's in the air they breathe. Better not try to hold back the tide and just roll with it.

You can trace that back to R.J. Rushdoony, a Christian Reconstructionist ("American Taliban") who popularized the homeschool movement. Doomerism fits in nicely with apocalyptic Christianity, which is after all just another doomsday cult. RJ said democracy is heresy. When Sharon Engle said people worship government as God, that's a Rushdoony line. His people also endorse domestic terrorism.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/09/hbc-90005678

That's where you see the overlap of homeschooling, whacky doomerism, antiabortion terrorism, and the general urge to dismantle society (so they can create a ruthless brutal theocracy).

[vision-master]

Christianity is belief in the New Testament. That being Jesus is the ONLY son of God. I say this is an impossibility.

[Loki]

Parental involvement in their children's lives. Duh. Pretty fucking obvious explanation dude.

How do you force that. How do you force a parent to be responsible for their child.

You can't. Government can't solve all social problems. Doesn't mean we should gut public education or subject every aspect of our lives to the free market.

[crude_intentions]

You can't. Government can't solve all social problems. Doesn't mean we should gut public education or subject every aspect of our lives to the free market.

Ok but at what point do you draw the line. How many times and in how many ways can government fail before you switch to A different model.

[PrestonSturges]

Parental involvement in their children's lives. Duh. Pretty fucking obvious explanation dude.

How do you force that. How do you force a parent to be responsible for their child.

You can't. Government can't solve all social problems. Doesn't mean we should gut public education or subject every aspect of our lives to the free market.

The Christian (anti) libertarians have done a deal with Mammon. They will dismantle society so the corporations can control the country, and in return they expect to exert direct control over their neighbors.

[mos6507]

Ok but at what point do you draw the line. How many times and in how many ways can government fail before you switch to A different model.

Maybe the reason government (in a democracy) fails is because we, as the foundation upon which democracy sprouts, have failed, and that we simply don't solve anything by attacking government, since we're still stuck with our own dysfunctional society.

[Windmills]

P.S Here's a static that I find interesting. Children that are home schooled scores higher on standardized testing than your average public school student. That means your average mom can churn out a better educated student than a licensed teacher with a master’s degree.

If this were an experiment, I wouldn’t even bother giving you the F you deserve. I wouldn’t even accept it. I’d give it back to you and make you redo it in study hall. Do some work on making valid comparisons and drawing proper conclusions. Please attempt to be more objective as well. Your controls are also ridiculous, perhaps because they’re entirely absent. A cursory inspection reveals that you didn’t control for household income, parental involvement, time available from staff per student, class size, staff-student ratio, educational level of the parents, educational level of the instructors, or resources available per student, just to name a few. You might also want to do a literature search. You may find that parental involvement is the most strongly correlated factor for student success. You can’t beat the kind of parental involvement available to a homeschooler: a one-on-one tutoring situation from a parent that cares enough to dedicate a large part of their day to their child, possibly even sacrificing a second income in order to do it.

Your report card isn’t shaping up very well this quarter.

English: C-
Science: F

I hope the rest of your classes are electives.

[mattduke]

Welcome to government school where you will expend your childhood.

[mattduke]

Ok but at what point do you draw the line. How many times and in how many ways can government fail before you switch to A different model.

Maybe the reason government (in a democracy) fails is because we, as the foundation upon which democracy sprouts, have failed, and that we simply don't solve anything by attacking government, since we're still stuck with our own dysfunctional society.

Government doesn't fail. Government succeeds in enriching it's members. Government public services on the other hand, fail.

[mos6507]

Government public services on the other hand, fail.

Generalize, much?