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Crocodile Tears over Engineers

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Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby Novus » Sun 22 May 2011, 20:58:43

The media and government has been banging the drum on America needs more Math and Science students and Engineers in the workforce to stay competitive a lot lately. Being old enough now I can say I heard this same old song and dance before and it is a scam. It is big business as usual pushing for workforce over supply so they can drop the pay scales and increase their profits. They completely ruined the technology fields with this tactic.

Need I remind people that NASA itself is laying off their engineers by the thousands. Is anyone going to hire them in the math and science fields? Unlikely as most at either retiring or changing careers. One such engineer posted this on another blog that really shed light on rapidly deteriorating field that America once dominated.

Why in the world would anyone want to be an engineer in this county?

I've been an engineer for 20 years, it was the worst decision I ever made. Sadly, at 18 years old I bought the lies of how good engineers are treated and how well paid they are, it made sense too, the hardest work gets good pay. What a joke, the reality is engineers are treated like dirt in this country, if you aren’t now you will be soon enough. Engineering is just viewed as an expense to be minimized. I would NEVER, EVER recommend someone to become an engineer, even if it really appealed to you, as it did me.

There is no doubt the school work is much, much harder, and requires much more time. In my first weed out class the prof said you can forget about having a life for four years—and those left that graduated could confirm that. Taking five years is common.

Doing a business major is so much easier in relation, and you can end up with much higher pay, easy work with low stress, in relation. In most fields you can hide or blame shift mistakes, but in engineering the smallest mistake in a system with a million connecting complex items can not be escaped and will cause a problem that you may work round the clock to fix.

I have dozens of US patents and have helped designed multi-billion dollar sale products, but I always hear about how much better some MBA is making it, often twice my pay for work that is really easy in relation.

If you want to make money in this country get a job that manages money, or work for the oil business. I got so tired of hearing about flunkies in the oil business making huge salaries that I bought a Prius. A nice piece of engineering… the Japanese and Germans beat us hands down in making quality products and don’t expect that to change with the culture ingrained in corporate American.

Engineers were almost in high demand in the early 90's, and would have then been treated well, but corporate America avoided paying market rates by bringing floods of low paying H1B visas in from overseas who had to be slaves to the company, or have to leave the country. This kept wages flat. Scams were used to work around H1B limitations, on youtube watch video ID TCbFEgFajGU called “PERM Fake Job Ads defraud Americans”, it’s sickening.

Now, every developing country has invested heavily in producing engineers who will work long and hard for little pay, India, China, and on... So just like all the manufacturing jobs left the US for low paying Chinese factories, engineers will be gone too. It’s just a matter of time. Some of my co-workers have visited some up and coming Chinese engineering firms, they were blown away by the scale of the operation. Estimates were they’ll have 20 Chinese engineers to compete against one American one.

Yes, it’s really that bad… and why would you want to get into engineering?

The reality is now there is a lot of great engineering talent in the world where one foreign engineer can be paid less than what it would cost one American to pay property tax, income tax, sales tax, unemployment tax, social security and other taxes. So long term it will be impossible to compete in the global market due to the high taxes in this country. Got that? It’s about the taxes. Taxes and mindless regulations distort the market on a global level.

Going to work for an oil company should be a good option, unless you have a brain and a conscious as the corruption is so blatant.


Want more Engineers in America. Raise the pay scale and the market will provide.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby evilgenius » Sun 22 May 2011, 22:10:26

How else can you explain Chrysler?
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 22 May 2011, 22:59:04

Humm, will I'm an Engineer, I'm 60 years old, and I haven't been out of work since '76. But then again I didn't graduate until '87, and got my P.E. in, 1999, so I'm a late comer.

Not all fields of engineering are the same. It has been very good to me. It strikes me that some of the more glamor fields have it worse.

Power engineering would be a good choice, but perhaps not computer engineer.

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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 22 May 2011, 23:20:56

Its an odd article that you post; yeah the hype is always hype and all, but if there was ever a degree that got overhyped, its the MBA... problem is, this engineer is only seeing the MBA's that are successful and well paid; which is a serious distortion of reality. Many of these high paid , achieving MBA's had the high paying exec job in the bag BEFORE they picked up the degree or likely before they even applied at the business school for the degree course. He isn't looking at Bob who went to school, got a BA in accounting, went straight for an MBA, and now finds himself doing monthly account reconciliations for 30k a year. Your engineer complaintant will never see Bob or those like him. Thus, every MBA he sees, will be of the high-dollar variety.

I also hear what he's saying about pay vs. cost of living; but if you look at the costs you listed, are not those more due to where the engineer in question chose to live and the price of the house he chose to buy? If he'd chosen an $80k house, not in California or NY, working in a small firm,his cost of living experience would have been incredibly different; yet he rolled the dice and played with the big boys. He didn't manage to get on top, and so, got hosed. It was the bet he placed, and he lost.

I thank my lucky stars I didn't chase those folks in California at recruitment time... A mobile home, on a paved slot, for a couple hundred grand... yeah. no ty.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby diemos » Sun 22 May 2011, 23:21:16

Novus wrote:The media and government has been banging the drum on America needs more Math and Science students and Engineers in the workforce to stay competitive a lot lately.


Heh. Business is always banging this drum because it wants the government to subsidize the overproduction of engineers so that they can have lot's of cheap engineers.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 23 May 2011, 08:18:01

Not to let go of this lightly consider this.

If you are an engineer, one of the basics such as civil, structural, mechanical, or even electrical power, then you know how to, or at least SHOULD know how to actually DO something useful. How to build something that will stand up or float.

Nursing, another profession that is much maligned for similar reasons, is also useful because it teaches you how to DO something.

Computer science? As long as the system holds together it is OK. Even psychology and sociology may have a useful component if it helps you to organize cooperative groups.

MBA? Not so much. But even with that there can be wisdom, if you are willing to hear it.

Frankly even thought I am a P.E. most of the really useful stuff I learned in the USCG tech school and/or while working as a maintenance foreman and/or OJT as a Project Engineer/Manager on construction jobs. But the degree (BA Physics) and later P.E. opened a lot of doors.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Mon 23 May 2011, 19:53:25

Image
Image

Evidence > Anecdotes

The market compensates those with quantitative skills very well. Engineers typically make far more money than those studying the liberal arts, at least for the first decade or so.

I know at my company, the engineers earn far more than the rest of us. And they deserve it, they work harder. :)
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby Maddog78 » Tue 24 May 2011, 12:07:12

Going to work for an oil company should be a good option, unless you have a brain and a conscious as the corruption is so blatant.



Sour grapes, asshole.
Obviously pissed that he never took Petroleum Engineering. :lol:
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 24 May 2011, 12:44:48

An update to Tyler's post on starting salaries for Engineers. A good place to look for this is at the APEGGA (Association professional engineers, geologists, geophysicists of Alberta) where they break down the salaries by job grade/responsibility and industry.

Summarized the mean of all starting engineers in 2010 is $65,936/yr (CDN) with 75% of all salaries over $60,250.
Procurement/Construction: $63,419
Resource exploitation other than oil and gas: $72,304
Oil and Gas: $72,046
manufacturing durables: $56,000
manufacturing nondurables: $67,035
service industry (not for profit): $67,090
service industry (for profit): $64,445
Utilities: $69,819
Technologies: $58,674

For more senior project engineers/specialists the mean salaries ranged from $140,000 - $200,000/annum, some of these roles involving management level roles.
The differential between oil and gas engineers and other engineering functions seems to increase with increasing job levels.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby Novus » Tue 24 May 2011, 15:44:38

You are not seeing the whole picture Tyler_JC. The are lies, damn lies, and statistics and this is a perfect example of their misuse.

Computer Science and Engineer pay scales are skewed higher than they actually are because what is left of American Computer Science and Engineers are older employees in Senior positions. All the entry level work is out sourced to China. New grads can't find jobs because they don't exist and as a result their starting pay doesn't drag down the pay scale. It is just like the BS 9% unemployment statistic the government keeps trotting out about the recovery. People not filing unemployment don't get counted or people not employed in their field don't get counted. An engineer working at McDonalds or Walmart is left out of the statistic pool.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby seahorse3 » Tue 24 May 2011, 15:51:01

The best at whatever they choose to do succeed, being it engineer, singer, art, teacher, mechanic, welder, whatever. Make a choice, try to be the best, throw in a little honesty, and you will succeed. You probably can't be the best, though, unless you love what you do. If you love what you do, you enjoy spending the time it takes to get better.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby davep » Tue 24 May 2011, 16:09:23

Pfft. I stopped my education at 18 and now earn 190k dollars per annum . In my opinion it can just be about how clever you are. A degree will not hide that fact over the long term.

OK, I'll admit that I was lucky getting into IT at the right time. But over time those with genuine skills and ingenuity will rise so long as they have the guts to move on when they're in a rut.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby Maddog78 » Tue 24 May 2011, 16:40:17

rockdoc123 wrote:For more senior project engineers/specialists the mean salaries ranged from $140,000 - $200,000/annum, some of these roles involving management level roles.
The differential between oil and gas engineers and other engineering functions seems to increase with increasing job levels.



I'm at the 200K plus level and it only took 25 years. LOL.
There will continue to be good jobs in the oilfield. A lot of old farts like me will be hanging it up in the next 5 years or so and that will leave a lot of spaces to be filled.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby smiley » Tue 24 May 2011, 17:19:56

To engineer is to create.

and there is not a single creative profession that pays better than Engineering.

......so who am I to complain about wages?
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 24 May 2011, 17:43:42

Novus wrote:All the entry level work is out sourced to China.


You start off complaining about Tyler's misuse of statistics, and then follow up with an even more ridiculous statistic????
All entry level work is not out-sourced to China; tons of companies don't even have the volume to allow an outsourcing solution to even work.

What you mean to say, is that the large corporations are not, in general, hiring new talent; but even that is patently false, as HR boards are full of folks discussing how to sift the wheat from the chaff of American college grads. And trust me, there are a *lot* of folks graduating that are utterly useless. There is also the perception, from a college grad's perspective, that jobs are hard to find, when what they really mean, is the number of grads that want that super-sexy position at JPL, General Dynamics, or Bechtel; far exceeds the number of slots available. What they don't talk about are the tons of smaller firms that hire one or two engineers every once in a while; nothing sexy, but a solid middle class job, in a location with a reasonable cost of living.

And since you lead off this thread with a comment that suggests in a round about way that the most overhyped degree ever (MBA) would yield a better result; I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly where you want to go with this thing. Its obvious that a college grad will have more options available to them for employment than a high school grad; and its obvious to me at least, that a college grad with a bach. degree on the math/science side will have more options available to them than a liberal arts grad; what path are you proposing that the general 18 yr old high school grad pursue?

People not filing unemployment don't get counted or people not employed in their field don't get counted. An engineer working at McDonalds or Walmart is left out of the statistic pool.


This is a general statement about the economy, not a comment about what degree / career path has the best future outlook.

Personally, I'm still pitching the "Engineering is Awesome" to my kid; and she's just eating up the math, science, & astronomy stuff. And when time to pay up comes around, I'll not give a second thought to paying for an Engi degree too. Best lifestyle investment, EVER. Even if the economy is trashed, I'll feel much better with Daughter Dearest, BS Chemical Engineering; than I will with Daughter Dearest, BA Art History... tyvm.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 24 May 2011, 17:45:55

smiley wrote:To engineer is to create.
and there is not a single creative profession that pays better than Engineering.
......so who am I to complain about wages?


People underrate the satisfaction of having hundreds or thousands of people, safely and efficiently, using something that you created.
To be able to do that, and keep your family comfortably provided for, (and never having to make a sales call), is pretty dang priceless.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Tue 24 May 2011, 21:41:42

Novus,

I'm talking about starting salaries. The first chart says in big letters up top "Starting Salaries". The second one says "Starting Pay". Those numbers are unaffected by outsourcing or "the left-behinds in senior positions" effect.

I can't vouch for mid career salaries although I have a hard time believing that 23 year old newbies are making more than 50 year old experts.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 24 May 2011, 22:50:42

These types of surveys often inflate starting salaries by as much as $20,000.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby JoeW » Tue 24 May 2011, 23:59:21

First, let me say that I agree that engineers are not treated particularly well compared to other professionals. Even a tow-truck driver can make more money than an engineer (yes, I knew a tow-truck driver making $60K).

To give a little background, I am the first man in my family to complete a 4-yr degree, and I went to a Tier 1 university. I am very good at what I do. However, I can honestly say that at 35 years old, I am only now making anywhere close to what my father/step-father/father-in-law made with just their high school diplomas. Of course, they're all retired now (one at 62, the others in their 50's) and I will probably work well into my 60's. So there is a generational thing here that the baby boomers don't understand. In their generation, I think it really was the case that the high school diploma was enough to have a very nice living if you were a good worker, and the engineering degree would really take you far and afford you a lavish lifestyle.

Today, that is just not the case. Anyone seeking the life of luxry through education should look no further than becoming a doctor, and more specifically, a surgeon. If you have the brains to complete an engineering degree at a Tier 1 school, then chances are, you are also bright enough to complete a program to become a doctor. It takes more time and more money, but the payoff is enormous, and all those baby boomers who told you to be something else will gladly open up their fat wallets to you when they need your services. Whatever they got with their high school diplomas will be yours in due course.

While we have an over-supply of engineers, we are chronically under-supplied with doctors.
So remember, work hard, study hard, and if you have the chance, I say become a doctor! That is what I tell my children. I never met a doctor in the unemployment line.
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Re: Crocodile Tears over Engineers

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 25 May 2011, 02:03:38

JoeW wrote:Today, that is just not the case. Anyone seeking the life of luxry through education should look no further than becoming a doctor, and more specifically, a surgeon.


All that luxury is due to artificial undersupply of these surgeons and other doctors, nothing else. Once AMA is not able to limit supply, the salaries will go down big, big time.
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