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Could devaluation and capital controls be the answer?

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Could devaluation and capital controls be the answer?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 22 Jul 2011, 22:04:07

Excerpt from a Le Monde article:

Long ago, European kings borrowed from the Doge of Venice or Florentine merchants or Genoese bankers. They were under no obligation to repay these loans and sometimes neglected to do so, a neat way of settling public debt. Many years later, the young Soviet regime announced that it would not be held accountable for money the tsars had borrowed and squandered, so generations of French savers suddenly found they had worthless Russian loans in their attics.

But there were more subtle ways of getting out of debt. In the UK, debt declined from 216% of gross domestic product in 1945 to 138% in 1955, and in the US it fell from 116% of GDP to 66%. Without any austerity plan. Of course, the surge in post-war economic development automatically reduced the proportion of debt in national wealth. But that was not all. States repaid a nominal sum at the time, reduced each year by the level of inflation.

If a loan subscribed at 5% annual interest is repaid in currency that is depreciating at the rate of 10% a year, the real interest rate becomes negative to the benefit of the debtor. Between 1945 and 1980, the real interest rate in most western countries was negative almost every year. As a result, as The Economist remarked: “Savers deposited money in banks, which lent to governments at interest rates below the level of inflation” (6). Debt was cut without much trouble. In the US, negative real interest rates were worth the equivalent of 6.3% of GDP per year to the Treasury, from 1945 to 1955 (7).

Why did savers allow themselves to be cheated? They had no choice. Capital controls and the nationalisation of the banks meant that they had to lend to the state, and that is how it got its funds. Wealthy individuals did not have the option to invest on spec in Brazilian stock index-linked to changes in the price of soybeans over the next three years. There was a flight of capital, suitcases of gold ingots leaving France for Switzerland the day before devaluation or an election in which the left might win. However, this was illegal.

Up to the 1980s, index-linked wage rises (sliding scales) protected most workers against the consequences of inflation, and controls on free movement of capital had forced investors to put up with negative real interest rates. After the Reagan/Thatcher years, the opposite applied.

Sliding wage scales disappeared almost everywhere: in France, the economist Alain Cotta called this major decision, in 1982, “[Jacques] Delors’ gift [to employers]” (8). Between 1981 and 2007, inflation was destroyed and real interest rates were almost always positive. Profiting from the liberalisation of capital movements, “savers” (this does not mean old age pensioners with a post office account in Lisbon or carpenters in Salonika) make states compete for funds and, as François Mitterrand said, “make money in their sleep”. Moving from sliding wage scales and negative real interest rates to a reduction in the purchasing power of labour and a meteoric increase in returns on capital completely upsets the social balance.

(snip)

This confirms a trend already noticeable 20 years ago: real political power is shifting to areas where democracy carries no weight, until the day when indignation finally boils over. Which is where we are.

But indignation is powerless without some understanding of the mechanisms that caused it. We know the alternatives – reject the monetarist, deflationist policies that deepen the crisis, cancel part of the debt if not all of it, take over the banks, get finance under control, reverse globalisation and recover the hundreds of billions of euros the state has lost by tax cuts that favour the wealthy (?70bn in France in the past ten years, more than $1 trillion in the US, especially for the top 1% of income earners). And knowledge of these alternatives has been shared by people who know at least as much about economics as Trichet, but do not serve the same interests.

This is not a technical and financial debate but a political and social battle. Of course, the economic liberals will claim that what progressives demand is impossible. But what have they achieved, apart from creating a situation that is unbearable?
http://mondediplo.com/2011/07/01europe


What the article is saying is that the way Britain and Europe and the US got out from under post war debts was with a policy of keeping inflation higher than interest, so that the debt comes down over time. Workers were protected by tying wages to inflation. Capital controls prevented the rich from investing elsewhere.. they were mostly stuck with banks, which paid interest that amounted to only half inflation.

The upshot is that the rich and savers bore the brunt of paying off state debts. Inflation was high but 10% is not hyperinflation. Average folks were protected from inflation with the sliding wage scales. This sounds like it worked.. it rings true.. only people who got a little bit soaked were the rich.

I'm not arguing in favor of this, just inviting anyone who can to offer up a counter argument. Fascinating essay, I always thought the Reagan years were when everything got seriously screwed up -- this article explains why.
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Re: Could devaluation and capital controls be the answer?

Unread postby mattduke » Fri 22 Jul 2011, 22:37:46

Increasing the money supply does not result in a mechanical predictable uniform or simultaneous increase in prices. Hyperinflation is caused when after a period of increasing money supply and depreciating value, demand to own the currency drops. Ben Bernanke controls the supply half. The world market determines the demand half. Bernanke cannot make anyone want to own a dollar. When demand for the currency drops (people spend as soon as possible), you get hyperinflation.
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Re: Could devaluation and capital controls be the answer?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 23 Jul 2011, 19:35:13

mattduke wrote:Increasing the money supply does not result in a mechanical predictable uniform or simultaneous increase in prices. Hyperinflation is caused when after a period of increasing money supply and depreciating value, demand to own the currency drops. Ben Bernanke controls the supply half. The world market determines the demand half. Bernanke cannot make anyone want to own a dollar. When demand for the currency drops (people spend as soon as possible), you get hyperinflation.


What do you think about the essay as far as its historical interpretation?

It sounds right to me.. Before the 80s, Europe and US had higher inflation and higher interest (half the inflation percentage). The author posits that's how the super-high debt to GDP got whittled down over time; if interest is half that of inflation then the effect is a sustainable inflating away of debt.

The key here is to protect workers with wage increases tied to inflation, and force most investors into buying government bonds. On its face it sounds like a radical idea, but the author sounds correct that this is what we did until Reagan / Thatcher. If it in fact worked for the super high post war debts, then it's something to consider.

Also, Bernanke has said something along the lines of moderate inflation being a good idea at this point. So it seems like this is the plan again, inflate away the debt.. the scary thing though is that unlike pre 1980, this time around investors won't be buying bonds and far worse, wages aren't tied to inflation anymore.

I'm just curious about this, right or wrong, could it possibly solve the crushing debt crisis.. have moderately high inflation like 10% (I think real inflation is already close to that), then have a 5% interest rate, pass a law requiring wage increases tied to inflation and somehow get most investors out of stock markets and commodities and into treasuries (also you need capital controls to keep money in the US).

Obviously this is anathema to investors, but we are in a crisis situation.. you gotta make a choice here, eat some peas or watch society collapse..
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Re: Could devaluation and capital controls be the answer?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 23 Jul 2011, 22:46:01

Sixstrings wrote:I'm just curious about this, right or wrong, could it possibly solve the crushing debt crisis.. have moderately high inflation like 10% (I think real inflation is already close to that), then have a 5% interest rate, pass a law requiring wage increases tied to inflation and somehow get most investors out of stock markets and commodities and into treasuries (also you need capital controls to keep money in the US).

No question, inflation helps "solve" the debt problem for debtors over time. As long as it doesn't get TOO bad, perhaps investors will tolerate it.

If you're routinely screwing dollar holders over time (which trying to force them to hold treasuries paying 5% while inflating at 10% will naturally do) via things like "capital controls", good luck with that in anything but the short term.

People smart enough to accumulate substantial wealth won't tolerate that. They will leave, or sneak money out of the country or into something that hedges against inflation (land or minerals, or businesses that can increase profits faster than inflation), etc. Or they'll just say "the hell with it" and spend it on themselves instead of investing it -- rather than just lose it.

THEY WILL NOT invest in a way that grows American jobs if this will totally screw them. In the end, you will definitely screw the poorest class, who you are trying to help. As, by the way, the overall 50 year "War on Poverty" has done, despite the best efforts of the left.

I was just reading recently how its hard to find food in the grocery stores in Venezuala. Chavez has MANDATED price controls on many consumer staple foods. And he has REFUSED to allow any price relief from the suppliers of such foods, who face massive inflation on their cost inputs. Well guess what. Surveys show ALMOST NONE OF THE MANDATED price controlleed items are available AT ALL the stores.

So much for "protecting" the poor by confiscating and rearranging capital. Wish for you all you want. Except for rare exceptions where countries have lots of energy reserves to tax and stay well away from military ventures, socialism doesn't make the poor much better off over time, no matter how much you may want it to.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Could devaluation and capital controls be the answer?

Unread postby babystrangeloop » Sun 24 Jul 2011, 00:07:30

Why would anyone need to devalue the dollar when there are still so many wonderful investments out there?

For instance we can profit off of blackouts.


How to Play the 2011 Blackouts
There's an easy way to profit from it...
By Ian Cooper / Wealth Daily / July 21, 2011


... There are antiquated U.S. power grids that will not be able to handle the demand on scorching hot days. And Beacon has done quite well on the failure.

On August 14, 2003, a power failure in the northeastern USA and central Canada hit 50 million people. BCON popped from 25 cents to $1.25.

On September 19, 2003, Hurricane Isabel destroyed electricity for 4.3 million people across the United States and part of Canada. BCON popped from 60 cents to more than $1.

On September 4, 2004, five million people in Florida lost power after Hurricane Frances. BCON ran from 25 cents to 75 cents.

On August 26, 2005, 1.3 million people in Florida lost power because of Hurricane Katrina. BCON ran from $1 to $5.

The stock ran slightly in 2006 on the Queens Blackout news, and again in 2007.

The stock doubled in the summer of 2008. It ran from $4 to about $11 going into the summer of 2009.

And while it didn't do much but drop in 2010, we could see a bump if the lights go out in New York.

Know this, though. This is an extremely speculative play. ...
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Re: Could devaluation and capital controls be the answer?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 24 Jul 2011, 05:03:08

Sixstrings wrote:The key here is to protect workers with wage increases tied to inflation, and force most investors into buying government bonds.

To protect these workers you would need an economic growth, something what is not going to come these days.
So your workers will be screwed as well.

And these rich may well be dedicated to brake capital control laws regardless of possible consequences.
After all benefit of obedience of law is dictated by considerations of probability theory.
At certain proportion of odds it pays to screw the law regardless.

Now we are in the end game and rich understand it.
In the past it was obvious that longer term perspective is good, so rich class could afford to put up with the nuisance for a while, now it is clear for them that existing paradigm approaches its final days, so everyone grabs what s/he can.
Obviously this is anathema to investors, but we are in a crisis situation.. you gotta make a choice here, eat some peas or watch society collapse..

Existing modern society will collapse regardless.
Commies in Poland and SU tried a lot of what you say, in fact much more, they had superior law enforcement system, they had all the power of authoritarian state behind them... and they lost.

Your problem is not debt as such. Problem is that your entire economic paradigm based on economic growth is bankrupt.
So government will at some point run out of other peoples money, and whatever "portable wealth" remains will be concealed from it and rather destroyed than handed down to state.
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Re: Could devaluation and capital controls be the answer?

Unread postby Cog » Sun 24 Jul 2011, 07:40:16

No matter how many games Sixstrings plays with the national debt, with either raising taxes on the wealthy to orbit or trying to inflate our way out of it, he simply ignores the easiest solution which is to cut spending.
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Re: Could devaluation and capital controls be the answer?

Unread postby wisconsin_cur » Sun 24 Jul 2011, 08:07:05

it might be possible to spread out the pain over a longer period of time with such a scheme. The "medicine" still might kill you however since I don't know that the general population would acquiescence to this kind of financial repression as willingly (ignorantly?) as the population after WW2.

They have expectations which makes them more difficult to govern.

Image
http://www.thenewfederalistpapers.com
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Re: Could devaluation and capital controls be the answer?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 24 Jul 2011, 19:44:55

wisconsin_cur wrote:it might be possible to spread out the pain over a longer period of time with such a scheme. The "medicine" still might kill you however since I don't know that the general population would acquiescence to this kind of financial repression as willingly (ignorantly?)


Thanks for the "financial repression" link, that's what I was looking for, another source other than this essay.

Thing is, it can't work unless investors are forced to buy treasuries. I don't see how that can be done now, you'd tank the world stock markets getting the majority out of those markets and into bonds.

Without these capital controls and forced bond purchases, inflation couldn't work on the debt because in a free market inflation pushes up bond yields.

The Fed is clearly on an inflationary policy.. the long term debt is a problem.. therefore capital controls are coming. I think they'll do it gradually, starting with the 401k's and pensions.. requiring they invest in US treasuries.

(not saying this is a good idea, I just want to understand things.. the bad difference between the near future and pre-1980 is that wages aren't tied to inflation anymore, they're stagnant. So that means working / middle class incomes are going to be seriously devalued)
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