[Sixstrings]

This debt ceiling thing is starting to feel like the Cuban missile crisis. CNN has a "countdown to default" clock graphic. Hopefully journalists like Lawrence O'Donnell are right, and this is all show and thirty minutes to midnight on the last day they'll pass a simple debt ceiling bill (It only takes one or two sentences, all they do is change the number).

Regardless, the rest of the world is starting to wonder if the US is having a nervous breakdown. They don't understand this. They don't understand the Tea Party. It all looks crazy to them.

US sovereign debt, and the dollar is basically the world's global reserve and trade currency, is verging on an historic credit downgrade. The US is only propped up by the rest of the world having confidence in us. If they lose that confidence, if they decide our politics is insane, then the US could crash hard with all those dollars traded in for something more stable like the yuan or Swiss francs or the Euro.

So.. just from my personal lifetime experience.. the situation in the US is starting to get a bit nuts. Does anyone else ever consider emigrating?

That's so hard to do mid life or later, unless it's a corporate job that takes you there. For young people though.. I think it would be wise for them at this point to just get out. Best options I can see would be Canada or Australia. They're both Western, they aren't insane, and they both have vast land and resources with low populations. Australia would be the better of the two, since whatever happens in the US will spill over into Canada. Whereas whether they realize it or not, I think Oz is very well positioned.

Alternatively, I think a good doomstead spot would be some place near the Canadian border. Maine, etc., somewhere you could just slip over the border if TSHTF.

[SeaGypsy]

Got a loose million 6? That's what you need to buy in here; other options are to carefully fit a high needs niche professionally but the older you are the harder it gets.

Having been a lifelong US national by birth I haven't set foot there in 20 years; doubt I will again. Up until about 2007 my relatives in the States kept the position that my side of the family was nuts to live in the antipodes.

Things are going to go pretty awry everywhere but the difference between being in a 20% unemployment area and a 5% is huge in first world countries. How long will Aussies day in the sun last? How long will chindia and the tigers need our resources and how long will the requisite energy delivery systems be in place?

[Novus]

I have considered New Zealand. Better Climate than Australia as it is cooler with more rain and still English speaking.

[Livewire713]

Im staying put, all my family and friends live in my area. My parents are getting close to 80 and I couldn't leave them. One thing we do have going for us is my family own's a small cabin on a lake about 50 miles from where we all live so if things go south fast we would pack up and head up there. I think your best to stay put and get as prepared as you can for whatever happens. Unless you have a lot of money like SeaGypsy mentioned. You could buy an Island in Canada and setup your doomstead but unless I hit the lottery thats not going to happen.

[Daniel_Plainview]

If things get crazy in the US, would you emigrate? Where to?

Greece. I'm tired of all this national "debt" bullshit.

[careinke]

I'm kinda partial to my current doomstead.

[Sixstrings]

No I don't have a million bucks.

I guess I'm getting the same feeling some were in the Bush years when they talked about heading for Canada and not looking back.

Would just be nice to live in a growing country, a country with sane rational government. A place where they don't talk about abandoning the elderly, denying them medication or tossing them out of the nursing home, all because of millionaire and billionaire greed.

Would be nice to live in a country where they can get a bridge built, stuff like that.

Or if one has to live amid doom and decline, why not make an adventure of it and experience another culture? I could teach English in Japan or China, or a poor eastern European country. It would be a poor lifestyle but at least interesting and something different.

Just a thought.

[cephalotus]

Whereas whether they realize it or not, I think Oz is very well positioned...

At least until 1,3 billion Chinese will decide that they need to "free" Australia and take the land and the resources for their own needs and at least until the climate doesn't change to much...

[Quinny]

No I don't have a million bucks.

I guess I'm getting the same feeling some were in the Bush years when they talked about heading for Canada and not looking back.

Would just be nice to live in a growing country, a country with sane rational government. A place where they don't talk about abandoning the elderly, denying them medication or tossing them out of the nursing home, all because of millionaire and billionaire greed.

Would be nice to live in a country where they can get a bridge built, stuff like that.

Or if one has to live amid doom and decline, why not make an adventure of it and experience another culture? I could teach English in Japan or China, or a poor eastern European country. It would be a poor lifestyle but at least interesting and something different.

Just a thought.

[Sixstrings]

:roll:

Oh I know, I'm bucking peak oil and limits to growth here.

But I read a lot of economic news. Canada and Australia are both growing. They're bound to keep doing well, you have to look at their ratio of population to resources. Oz only has 21 million people.. that's nothing.. Florida alone has 18 million.

I don't think you guys realize how big Australia is. Yes the interior isn't too habitable, but even a small band around the coasts, that's massive territory. Tropical climate, fifteen times more livestock than people. Look how big that place is, with pretty much same population as Florida:



What am I missing here? I know water is an issue but is all that coastline all over the north and west not habitable?

[Sixstrings]

Just on the numbers things are rosy in Australia, whether they realize it or not:

Australia Inc is booming - so why the long faces and the long knives?

A curious thing is afoot in Australia: pessimism that's wildly at odds with the facts.
Looked at from almost any angle, the nation of 22 million is on a tear. Unemployment is 4.9 per cent, wages are rising about 4 per cent a year, consumer prices are advancing about 3 per cent and interest rates have been steady all year. Policymakers in Europe, Japan and the US would kill for those numbers.

(snip)

Sure, Australia has its share of challenges. It must invest more in infrastructure and education, and figure out what to do with the spoils from the epic resources boom that has pitted Western Australia against the rest of the nation, which faces slower growth.
These are good problems to have at a time when Europe is on course for default. Since the 2008 financial crisis, US and European policymakers have done little to fix the underlying problems that caused the meltdown.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/australia-inc-is-booming--so-why-the-long-faces-and-the-long-knives-20110729-1i404.html

[Shaved Monkey]

Whereas whether they realize it or not, I think Oz is very well positioned...

At least until 1,3 billion Chinese will decide that they need to "free" Australia and take the land and the resources for their own needs and at least until the climate doesn't change to much...

Chinese already get all our coal and steel dirt cheap and have 20 year contracts on our gas and own a fair bit of farmland

Major problem will be in the final death throws of the US empire whether they decide to play spoiler and draw Australia into it.

In the 2000-01 financial year, the United States accounted for 45 per cent of all foreign investment in Australia, including real estate.

The UK was next, followed by Germany and Canada.

The US and the UK remained our top investors in 2009-10, but China had moved into third place, investing $16.3bn for an 11.7 per cent share. The previous year it had invested $26.6bn, second only to the US, and had a 15.9 per cent share.In that year the Chinese were the biggest single foreign investors in the Australian resources sector, with virtually all of the money poured into the country going into mining and energy.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/business/ ... 6084447622
No need to spend our money on an Army protecting our resources let the owners supply there own security.

[Cog]

Leave and miss all the excitement and adventure? Not a chance in hell. We are lucky to be alive at this particular time and witnessing some significant history being made here.

[Fishman]

"Regardless, the rest of the world is starting to wonder if the US is having a nervous breakdown. They don't understand this. They don't understand the Tea Party. It all looks crazy to them.

US sovereign debt, and the dollar is basically the world's global reserve and trade currency, is verging on an historic credit downgrade. The US is only propped up by the rest of the world having confidence in us"
Somehow you missed all those prior threats by Moody etc to downgrade our rating due to the debt itself. Wonder why?

Costa Rica, I could practice my trade there, great rum.

[Cloud9]

I'll stay put. I own the dirt. There is plenty of water. There are fish in the creek. Seasons are mild. The machine shop won’t fit in a back pack and there are too many preps to carry. I will be buried beside my father and grandfathers.

[Pops]

I did! I migrated to the Ozarks!

Seriously though, I see the possibility of the US gaining a little humility in the next decade. We are moving into the second phase of the Greater Depression / Peak Economy after all. Perhaps we'll dial back the Imperial military some and that will help us confront rising medical costs - a couple of our big nearby problems - contrary to the smoke being blown up our kazoo currently.

Wealth inequality however is the biggest problem we face structurally, aside from, or in addition to, peak oil. It will be the real flashpoint as our economy recedes. AR11 says as long as J6p can get food stamps he'll stay off the streets but the big push right now is not only to get the rich richer (the very wealthy pay about 16% federal income tax) but to take the food stamps away too.

We've gone through this before as a nation and societies have gone through it over and over in the past, we are greedy monkeys after all and will take as much as we are allowed to take.

This is what Teddy Roosevelt, a leading proponent of the estate tax, said in 1910. "The absence of effective state, and, especially, national restraint upon unfair money-getting has tended to create a small class of enormously wealthy and economically powerful men, whose chief object is to hold and increase their power. The prime need is to change the conditions which enable these men to accumulate power which is not for the general welfare that they should hold or exercise.… Therefore, I believe in a…graduated inheritance tax on big fortunes, properly safeguarded against evasion and increasing rapidly in amount with the size of the estate." And that's what we've had for the last ninety-five years—until 2010.

One way or another, the inequality will be reduced. It may happen when 400 families own 50% of all wealth in America (that would be today) or it may happen when 10 families own 99% of everything but it will happen. Hopefully by a new generation of "trust busters" and not by J6p hitting the streets...

...actually one reason I moved where I did is because we are a long way from "streets".


A couple of liberal articles for your summertime reading pleasure:
http://www.thenation.com/article/37889/no-oligarchy
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... coup/7364/

[ian807]

Regardless, the rest of the world is starting to wonder if the US is having a nervous breakdown. They don't understand this. They don't understand the Tea Party. It all looks crazy to them.

It looks crazy to them? For the record, it looks pretty nutty to me too.

Or not. I think this whole thing is a backdoor deal to kill off the dollar in order to tank China's economy and preserve US and European hegemony for another decade or two while there's still oil and their militaries still have some clout.

As for us, the people, I don't think we're even on anybody's radar at that level.

[Ibon]

Moving to Panama was not a big leap having already lived in developing countries for over half of my life but really since the US is already moving toward the status of a developing country anyway I would think that the real question for this thread is about adapting to living with less wealth. This is relevant whether you emigrate or stay. Except that your money goes further in developing countries. The last post from Pops is exactly relevant to this point.

You need to move into communities that have better adapted to the New Humility. Holding on to 1st World entitlement expectations while your economy is rapidly declining to 3rd world status is not very adaptive.

Here in Panama the labor costs are low and folks make finished goods where they can instead of buying finished products. They eat beans rice and bananas instead of boxed finished goods.

Here is an example from my past week here. I need a big industrial table saw to cut 6x6 blocks of timber we cut from trees on our land. I rented a portable saw mill this past year that we had to drag up the mountain but now I want my own big table saw for the remaining structures we plan on building. So I looked at big industrial table saws for cutting big blocks that run around $ 5,000.00. It turned out the local wood shop showed me the solution. The local metal machinist is preparing the axle with threaded end along with the bearings. Cost = $ 180.00. A 3.5 HP motor costs $ 300.00. Pullies and fanbelt under $ 50.00 We are having the table made of stout wood 4x4 harvested from our forest and the table top of a 16 caliber sheet metal with guide. The whole cost will run me under $ 600.00 with the 18 inch cutting blade. These are the resources still available locally in this village where I live.

How many towns in the US could provide the local shops to help you put together an industrial grade table saw at this price????

The US is a country where you only buy finished goods where most of the developing world still has shops that make stuff from raw materials.

This is the resilience and humility we need to get back to.

I have lost somewhat patience with displaced Americans whining about their suffering loss of wealth. It is as much a cultural state of mind that keeps you helpless dependent on an economy of relying on finished goods.

Here in rural Panama the work shops and trade skills that were in depression era America are still intact. That is a huge advantage for adapting to coming wealth scarcity.

As recently as 6 years ago I was a business owner who was mechanicially pretty pathetic with pretty low self confidence about building stuff. Little practical knowledge. Everything I am now doing I have learned in the past half dozen years.

People with trade and building skills are the sexiest members of society this century. If you want high social status surround yourself with them and absorb like a sponge their knowledge.

The time to despair over what is being lost is way over. It is time to actively transition. That is why I am down to posting on this site about once every two or three months.

The best direction for this site is to redirect its focus and themes on building cheap alternative infrastructure at low cost. Thread forums should be all about practical transition topics . Discussing politics and the entrenched status quo and all the rest is really at this point just plane bullshit.

I have no sympathy any longer for the entitled segment of the worlds population that is feeling the pinch and endlessly whining about it. Their very whining reveals the very entrenchment that ironically is what they are whining about!




Dissecting the post peak oil world is old hat.

[Bill Hicks]

As an American, I would actually be careful about going ANYWHERE abroad. When TSHTF, and the American military is no longer holding its big stick over the rest of the world, Americans are likely to be none too popular, even those of us who opposed all the military insanity after 9/11. It would be especially bad if you move to a non-English speaking country and don't know the local language. You might as well paint a bulls eye right on your back.

Wherever you go, it would behoove you to have a network of people upon whom you can rely. Otherwise, you're just an easy target for the local MZBs.

[Ibon]

As for us, the people, I don't think we're even on anybody's radar at that level.

Jose Rizal, a hero of the Philippines from the end of the 19th century, once wrote that the men of honor throughout the world are all compatriots. "Todos los hombres honrados del mundo son campatriotas"

He was executed by the Spanish since he was a filipino fighting for the honor and independence of his people.

With global trade we could rephrase Rizals famous line and state the following. "All members of the dishonored ruling global elite are compatriots"

When throughout history have the people of little means not been exploited by a ruling class, whether they were colonists, heads of corporations or members of puppet governments serving a small elite?

Rizal died for speaking out. I think this century requires a different kind of revolutionary. Instead of trying to engage an aggressive defensive declining status quo the best revolutionary act is to disengage from as many tentacles as possible which keeps you beholden to the elite.

Self reliance, learning trades, growing food, building up your local community. Find your fellow compatriots that have disengaged as much as possible. Accept the corruption in those areas where you can't disengage and stop whining.