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Justice Dept. investigating S&P

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Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 01:43:02

US Inquiry Eyes S&P Ratings of Mortgages

The Justice Department is investigating whether the nation’s largest credit ratings agency, Standard & Poor’s, improperly rated dozens of mortgage securities in the years leading up to the financial crisis, according to two people interviewed by the government and another briefed on such interviews.

The investigation began before Standard & Poor’s cut the United States’ AAA credit rating this month, but it is likely to add fuel to the political firestorm that has surrounded that action. Lawmakers and some administration officials have since questioned the agency’s secretive process, its credibility and the competence of its analysts, claiming to have found an error in its debt calculations.

In the mortgage inquiry, the Justice Department has been asking about instances in which the company’s analysts wanted to award lower ratings on mortgage bonds but may have been overruled by other S.& P. business managers, according to the people with knowledge of the interviews. If the government finds enough evidence to support such a case, which is likely to be a civil case, it could undercut S.& P.’s longstanding claim that its analysts act independently from business concerns.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/44184348


Well that doesn't look good, investigating *right after* a downgrade -- seems like retaliation. Wasn't there some noises in France too about investigating the ratings agencies?

The articles says the investigation began before the downgrade, but obviously someone has chosen to leak this now. I don't know, rather too coincidental to be coincidental I think.

So is it retaliation? A warning shot to any other agencies who may think of downgrading government?
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 02:15:34

Of course its retaliation.
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 02:46:35

Facebook knows you're a dog.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 03:53:33

I suspect that investors are clever enough to make their own rating of US government (and other governments) even if rating agencies cannot function anymore or are converted into propaganda outlets of bankrupt sovereigns.
Honest rating of US.gov would be somewhere in range B ---> CCC, means certainly below investment level.
If you must take additional loans to serve obligations related to previous ones or alternatively default, you are not an investment level borrower.
That is not a rocket science and no advanced maths is needed to prove it or understand it.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 04:34:59

Yeah, don't actually fix the problem. Don't have regulations that ensure enough competition, or competent oversight of the ratings agencies.

Just "own" the agencies, and use threats and intimidation if they have the nerve to tell the truth. And of course, scream at them when they screw up -- that way the public may pay less attention to the idiots on Capitol Hill screwing up. :lol:

Yeah, our government has more and more credibility every month. :roll:

Between that and spending ourselves (via priorities from BOTH the left and the right) into bankruptcy is what drives me further into the libertarian camp all the time.

Me and the other 1% or so of folks who actually want to STOP the madness instead of just tweaking it (so it doesn't gore OUR ox).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby prajeshbhat » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 05:14:37

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Between that and spending ourselves (via priorities from BOTH the left and the right) into bankruptcy is what drives me further into the libertarian camp all the time.


Again, you are one of those who think government spending is the cause of the failure of the private sector. I say its not. It is the symptom. The balance of payment of the government is largely dependent on the performance of the private sector. Government deficits follow the failures private sector, not lead it as the libertarians believe. Government runs huge deficits only to cover the failures of the private sector. Since the 1980's the private sector is USA has largely failed to create a lot of decent high paying jobs. So the government had to run deficits to provide provide the pretense of a healthy economy, even though the president was Ronald Reagan, an anti-government free-market fundamentalist.
In the 1990s there was the Tech-revolution and the private sector performed enormously well. So the government was able to reduce the deficits. Since 2000s the private sector is failing repeatedly. In 2008 it failed completely. The huge government deficits since then are just the attempts by the elite to pretend that the system is still solvent. Although the deficits are now so large that the failure of the American private sector is becoming totally obvious.
Nobody cares about the american corporations anymore. If you see the major international oil deals, the biggest winners everywhere are chinese corporations.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 05:34:18

prajeshbhat wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:Between that and spending ourselves (via priorities from BOTH the left and the right) into bankruptcy is what drives me further into the libertarian camp all the time.


Again, you are one of those who think government spending is the cause of the failure of the private sector. I say its not. It is the symptom. The balance of payment of the government is largely dependent on the performance of the private sector.

Physical limits of growth are current cause of failure of private sector.
Overregulation is augmenting these issues.

Government spending is only postponing inevitable total ruin for a while but also ensures that once it finally comes, it will be more complete one.
In the past when growth was still possible in principle, Keynesian stimulus and WW II allowed to extend a party for few decades more.

Now it is no longer the case so it is reasonable to expect total ruin of the system together with Soviet styled government bankruptcy but there will be no bailout, because there are no rich Aliens close enough to Earth.
So workers will have to learn to enjoy Bangladeshi standard of work and pay.
Naturally that applies for lucky one who have preserved their jobs...

If you see the major international oil deals, the biggest winners everywhere are chinese corporations.

Nope,
Chinese corporations will fail together with a failure of Western consumer.
Again, this is related to limits of growth.

So future work for corporation will give you $1-2 a day, regardless is it American, Chinese or a Philippine venture.
And you will value such job and be thankful that you have it, if you do.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby nobodypanic » Thu 18 Aug 2011, 16:25:30

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Yeah, don't actually fix the problem. Don't have regulations that ensure enough competition, or competent oversight of the ratings agencies.

Just "own" the agencies, and use threats and intimidation if they have the nerve to tell the truth. And of course, scream at them when they screw up -- that way the public may pay less attention to the idiots on Capitol Hill screwing up. :lol:

Yeah, our government has more and more credibility every month. :roll:

Between that and spending ourselves (via priorities from BOTH the left and the right) into bankruptcy is what drives me further into the libertarian camp all the time.

Me and the other 1% or so of folks who actually want to STOP the madness instead of just tweaking it (so it doesn't gore OUR ox).

are you serious? after '08, how can you suggest that S&P (or any ratings agency) is in any way, shape, or form 'competent'? that very assertion tells me you have no idea whatsoever what the hay is going on, and completely explains the tea-party flavored, libertarian-blather you're posting.

you don't want to stop the madness; you want to remove all barriers (however flimsy) preventing the madhouse from descending into a sheer industrial hell many times worse.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 03:21:45

nobodypanic wrote: after '08, how can you suggest that S&P (or any ratings agency) is in any way, shape, or form 'competent'? that very assertion tells me you have no idea whatsoever what the hay is going on, and completely explains the tea-party flavored, libertarian-blather you're posting.

Until rating agencies were lying, they were left alone.
Now once one of them is starting to tell something what remotely resembles truth, there are threats of prosecution.

you don't want to stop the madness; you want to remove all barriers (however flimsy) preventing the madhouse from descending into a sheer industrial hell many times worse.

Actual madness will surely come once your government fails by natural course of events in Soviet or Weimar style, as it surely will within next few years perhaps.
And no one in Universe will bail it out.

You don't need to worry about industrial hell.
Your industry is as bankrupt as your government is.
And madness will take a form of 60% unemployment or more.
Coming soon into theater near you.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby gandolf » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 04:25:35

It's quite obvious that if people are starting to see through the smoke and are no longer confused by the mirrors you need to increase the smoke and bring in more mirrors
There never was much hope. Just a fool's hope.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby americandream » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 04:43:51

EnergyUnlimited wrote:You don't need to worry about industrial hell.
Your industry is as bankrupt as your government is.
And madness will take a form of 60% unemployment or more.
Coming soon into theater near you.

Who do you think is propping up your way of life in Poland? Saint Nicklaus? 8O
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby americandream » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 04:45:35

gandolf wrote:It's quite obvious that if people are starting to see through the smoke and are no longer confused by the mirrors you need to increase the smoke and bring in more mirrors


Mirrors are a dime a dozen these days....and shipped by the container loads from China.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 05:08:27

americandream wrote:Who do you think is propping up your way of life in Poland? Saint Nicklaus? 8O

Uncle Sam is certainly not.
For last few years they are a negative asset in this respect.

Poland (very much like US or NZ) is self sufficient with food at least so I do not have immediate concerns.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby americandream » Fri 19 Aug 2011, 05:12:30

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
americandream wrote:Who do you think is propping up your way of life in Poland? Saint Nicklaus? 8O

Uncle Sam is certainly not.
For last few years they are a negative asset in this respect.

Poland (very much like US or NZ) is self sufficient with food at least so I do not have immediate concerns.


Yeah right. Pull the other one. It's got bells on it.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 23 Aug 2011, 06:40:06

New development..

S&P Board Fires CEO For Telling The Truth, To Be Replaced With COO Of Citibank

Following years of pandering to client demands, and assigning trillions of dollars in fixed income securities with whatever rating money bought (among other things, a factor to the credit bubble and its subsequent implosion) S&P finally tried to do the right thing and tell the truth. However in this case it picked if not the worst, then certainly the most hypocriticial credit in the world to expose - the US itself. Sure enough two weeks after the downgrade, someone made the phone call and the CEO Deven Sharma is no more. As for the kick square in the gonads: Sherma will be replaced with the COO of...you know it... the bank which demanded tens of billions in secret Fed bailout loans itself, Citibank, and whose existence is inextricably tied to America not seeing any more downgrades ever again.

As the FT reports, "The McGraw-Hill board made the decision to replace Mr Sharma at a meeting on Monday, where it also discussed an ongoing strategic review." Alas, this is nothing but a case study of modern corporate reality in America: if you are not with the status quo, you are against it..
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-board-fires-ceo-telling-truth-be-replaced-coo-citibank


Wow.. well, there won't be any more downgrades now will there? 8O

Quite a few consequences for S&P in short order after that downgrade.. Justice Department moving in, now the Board of Directors replaces the CEO with an establishment bankster who will play ball.

EDIT: S&P has also been losing clients since the downgrade, seems nobody wants to pay a ratings agency for bad news.. :lol:

Unhappy with an S&P downgrade? Then fire them

(CBS News) The Obama administration was angry when S&P downgraded America's credit rating from triple-A to double-A plus. Some local governments had their ratings downgraded and now they're taking action against S&P. CBS News correspondent Bill Whitaker looks at what those governments have done in reaction to the downgrades.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/18/eveningnews/main20094323.shtml
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby prajeshbhat » Tue 23 Aug 2011, 08:44:11

The problem is that banks have become majority share holders in almost all major corporations. That includes non finance corporations. The CEOs of all these corporations ( and their compensations) are not decided by the free market. They are decided by the institutional investors(banks). When a corporation is not performing, they bring in a ruthless outsider hoping that he will teach the lazy employees some discipline.
There are around 150 superstar CEOs in america. They are circulated in and around the major corporations. So a guy who knows nothing about telecommunications will end up the CEO of AT&T. By next year the same person would be running HP. So basically all major corporations in USA are run by people who know nothing about the corporation itself.
OTOH the corporations that are owned and run by their founders (Microsoft, google, apple etc) are doing well.
I recommend Searching for a Corporate Savior:
The Irrational Quest for Charismatic CEOs
by Rakesh Khurana
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby efarmer » Tue 23 Aug 2011, 08:52:16

Oh my the Tin Man is getting on the Scarecrow's case big time. It is a good thing they ate all of
Toto's food first and repossessed his dog house. And so goes life in Ozzington D.C.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 23 Aug 2011, 12:33:17

Sixstrings wrote:New development..

S&P Board Fires CEO For Telling The Truth, To Be Replaced With COO Of Citibank

Following years of pandering to client demands, and assigning trillions of dollars in fixed income securities with whatever rating money bought (among other things, a factor to the credit bubble and its subsequent implosion) S&P finally tried to do the right thing and tell the truth. However in this case it picked if not the worst, then certainly the most hypocriticial credit in the world to expose - the US itself. Sure enough two weeks after the downgrade, someone made the phone call and the CEO Deven Sharma is no more. As for the kick square in the gonads: Sherma will be replaced with the COO of...you know it... the bank which demanded tens of billions in secret Fed bailout loans itself, Citibank, and whose existence is inextricably tied to America not seeing any more downgrades ever again.

As the FT reports, "The McGraw-Hill board made the decision to replace Mr Sharma at a meeting on Monday, where it also discussed an ongoing strategic review." Alas, this is nothing but a case study of modern corporate reality in America: if you are not with the status quo, you are against it..
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-board-fires-ceo-telling-truth-be-replaced-coo-citibank


Wow.. well, there won't be any more downgrades now will there? 8O

Quite a few consequences for S&P in short order after that downgrade.. Justice Department moving in, now the Board of Directors replaces the CEO with an establishment bankster who will play ball.

EDIT: S&P has also been losing clients since the downgrade, seems nobody wants to pay a ratings agency for bad news.. :lol:

Unhappy with an S&P downgrade? Then fire them

(CBS News) The Obama administration was angry when S&P downgraded America's credit rating from triple-A to double-A plus. Some local governments had their ratings downgraded and now they're taking action against S&P. CBS News correspondent Bill Whitaker looks at what those governments have done in reaction to the downgrades.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/18/eveningnews/main20094323.shtml

Well demand for US treasuries is up, so the free market, the all seeing all knowing free market, has shown that the S&P downgrade was spectacularly wrong. Flubbing that call probably cost a lot of people billions and billions of dollars. So he had take the fall for a giant cl&*erf!^k.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 23 Aug 2011, 14:24:01

PrestonSturges wrote:Well demand for US treasuries is up, so the free market, the all seeing all knowing free market, has shown that the S&P downgrade was spectacularly wrong. Flubbing that call probably cost a lot of people billions and billions of dollars. So he had take the fall for a giant cl&*erf!^k.

Such a stupid shortsightedness...

Look on gold prices, btw.
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Re: Justice Dept. investigating S&P

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 23 Aug 2011, 19:59:17

PrestonSturges wrote:Well demand for US treasuries is up, so the free market, the all seeing all knowing free market, has shown that the S&P downgrade was spectacularly wrong. Flubbing that call probably cost a lot of people billions and billions of dollars. So he had take the fall for a giant cl&*erf!^k.


I don't know much about the CEO, other than he's apparently from India. Not sure how long he's been in the US. This could be a situation where S&P has a lot of multinational people working for them, and they took a look at the US and used the same criteria they were using for other nations.

What this Indian CEO didn't have was an American bias.. now S&P will have an American bankster in charge, an American who knows you simply *do not* hold the US to the same objective standard as other nations.

Thing is Preston, a few Chinese rating agencies had already downgraded us. If anything our domestic ratings agencies were being far too kind for too long -- the downgrade was warranted.

The reaction from the US government and the European governments to crack down on ratings agencies is disappointing. It totally wrecks credibility, it's banana republic stuff -- don't like your credit rating, prosecute the ratings agency. Make a phone call to the Board, have the CEO fired. Maybe bust up the company. This is Soviet Russia stuff, not good.

As for the free market and desirability of US bonds.. that's irrelevant. A ratings agency report is supposed to be on the fundamentals, whereas the free market is a function of best of all bad options. It's entirely logical that the US can be downgraded yet still be the "safest" investment -- it's just indicative of how much trouble the world is in, and S&P did the responsible thing by issuing a warning. People deserve some objective truth, they deserve some warning and good forecasting of the future -- that's what a ratings agency's job should be.

But not anymore. Fitch and Moody's sees what's happened to S&P. Now they'll never downgrade the US, lesson learned. And after the shakeup at S&P I wouldn't be surprised if they raise us back to AAA in short order.

Bottom line.. forcing S&P to change their tune hurts the credibility of US ratings agencies, makes them look government-controlled now. I don't see how that helps matters.
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