[geezer]

Is this the world we want?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lture.html

[dohboi]

G, could you clarify your point, here a bit?

[timmac]

G, could you clarify your point, here a bit?

The OP post says it all, is this the world we want.

The big mean green movement will not stop, they will ban everything if they were allowed to continue unchecked, Right..

[Expatriot]

Gotta love the European socialists. Pick and choose how you use the energy you buy. What they oughtta do is make it illegal to heat any space greater than 1000 square feet in the winter. That'd show them.

[dolanbaker]

Gotta love the European socialists. Pick and choose how you use the energy you buy. What they oughtta do is make it illegal to heat any space greater than 1000 square feet in the winter. That'd show them.

That would be about 99% of all non-domestic buildings.

[Narz]

Is this the world we want?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lture.html

Sure, why not?

'There is no reason why people who want to sit on terraces outside café shouldn't just put a coat or jumper on. This idea that you should be able to enjoy boiling temperatures while choosing to sit outside is ridiculous.'

Agreed.

[americandream]

Another nit picking Tory rag owned by a well fed person who probably has a heap of these things at his garden parties for bailed out bankers.

[dolanbaker]

Last updated at 11:59 AM on 24th September 2010

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1Wh2VzcxJ

Not exactly breaking news.

[argyle]

if it's too cold to enjoy your patio in your t-shirt, get a coat!

I only welcome the ban of those heaters. Nothing a good old coat can't replace and it goes against the waste and consumerism economy.

[AdTheNad]

Is this the world we want?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lture.html

It sure isn't the world I want. I want a world where you don't have to explain to people why burning a finite resource to heat the outside is a bad idea. I want a world where the finite resources are priced adequately, so even people who know nothing of peak resources realise that using finite resources for such frivolous activities is a stupid thing to do.

I want a world with infinite resources, but we don't have that. I want a world that efficiently allocates resources to those who would obtain the greatest marginal benefit. Again, we clearly don't have that as evidenced here.

So what we have here, is an attempt to put a plaster on a deep wound. Trying to treat a symptom instead of the cause. The whole system is set up wrong, so we try and fix it with more rules, because we can't change the system.

[Expatriot]

Gotta love the European socialists. Pick and choose how you use the energy you buy. What they oughtta do is make it illegal to heat any space greater than 1000 square feet in the winter. That'd show them.

That would be about 99% of all non-domestic buildings.

My point is that banning patio heaters would just be a feel-good ninny way of attacking energy use that is not their energy use.

If they ever suggested that in the U.S., it would be laughable given how much more effective it would be to simply say that every passenger vehicle must get 50 MPG.

[Pretorian]

Gosh just slap'em with 2 euros per Kw. Problem solved.

[argyle]

Gosh just slap'em with 2 euros per Kw. Problem solved.

Energy should be a resource that is available to everyone.. Such a price increase would mainly hit the poor ppl and help evaporate the middle class, not being able to afford the electricity/gas to go to work, prepare their food, heat their homes (for all their essential needs), while at the same time rich ppl can just burn away viable resources because they don't care about money.

I do agree that energy should be more costly to encourage efficient use of a finite resource. However, I also believe that a certain amount (for example the first 4000 kw of any household total energy consumption (electricity & heating & cooling)) should be at lower cost/taxation.. and from there on do an (exponential?) tax increase on energy and use that money to invest in renewable generation, public transport, innovation, research, etc.

As a household of 3ppl, we use 2800kw of electricity per year and around 9000kw (NG) for heating.

[Expatriot]

Gosh just slap'em with 2 euros per Kw. Problem solved.

Energy should be a resource that is available to everyone.. Such a price increase would mainly hit the poor ppl and help evaporate the middle class

So you espouse Marxism, at least when it comes to energy?

I've struggled with this a bit. Not sure where I land. Should mineral resources be privately owned? That's the ultimate question.

I'm guessing you'd support a regressive fuel pricing system whereby you pay more for energy as your house/car get more expensive.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Gotta love the European socialists. Pick and choose how you use the energy you buy. What they oughtta do is make it illegal to heat any space greater than 1000 square feet in the winter. That'd show them.

Right-o. Why should I use a space heater in winter to stay comfortable in a 10x10 bedroom, and leave the house at 55 degrees and save:

1). Significant money?
2). Significant natural gas? (Or heating oil. Or electricity from the grid to heat the whole house to 72 or 75 or whatever).
3). GHG production?

Why, that's just plain nuts!

Even if you lived in a 5000 square foot warehouse, if you sit where a small efficient space heater blows directly on you and dress in some layers -- you can handle a 55 or 60 degree temp. and be reasonably comfortable. I've done it for years in a large room, and I'm cold natured.

(Heating the outside is stupid, but I'd prefer to just tax energy to the point that anyone with a brain would have good reason to use it frugally -- would help a lot AND incent companies/innovators to improve things much more quickly.)

[Plantagenet]

I was skiing at Badger Mountain---a little ski area in Yosemite National Park several years ago. You ski up above the valley in the high country, and ski package included rooms and cabins down in the valley at the lodges, with a daily free bus shuttling up and down from the lodges to the ski area. Some friends and I stayed in a cabin at Camp Curry.

There was a little snow in Yosemite Valley itself, but they had the patio heaters going in the evenings for outside dining at Camp Curry.

I've got to say it was really great after a nice day of skiing to brush the snow off a picnic table and sit outside in the blast of patio heater watching the sun set on half dome while eating a pizza.

The oil age was great while it lasted.....

[Expatriot]

Why should I use a space heater in winter to stay comfortable in a 10x10 bedroom, and leave the house at 55 degrees and save:

It's not interesting to me. Individuals being frugal or not is just human nature.

The more interesting question posed by this thread is this:

Should the govt. limit what individuals can do with energy that they pay for at market price?

Those in favor of banning patio heaters say "yes."

If that's the case, I'd immediately suggest that we ban all coffee shops, snowmobiles, 4 wheelers, and cruise ships, because I think that those are foolishly wasteful uses of energy.

That's the point, right?

It's not really about patio heaters.

It's about limiting recreational use of energy. Interesting topic, to be sure.

[dolanbaker]

The more interesting question posed by this thread is this:

Should the govt. limit what individuals can do with energy that they pay for at market price?

Those in favor of banning patio heaters say "yes."

If that's the case, I'd immediately suggest that we ban all coffee shops, snowmobiles, 4 wheelers, and cruise ships, because I think that those are foolishly wasteful uses of energy.

That's the point, right?

It's not really about patio heaters.

It's about limiting recreational use of energy. Interesting topic, to be sure.

You could turn that question on it's head and say "Should we ban the manufacture of products that are not essential for daily life, and what products would you list?"

For example; leaf blowers.

If the products are not available, they can't waste fuel.

[Plantagenet]

"Should we ban the manufacture of products that are not essential for daily life, and what products would you list?"

For example; leaf blowers.

If the products are not available, they can't waste fuel.

Do you really want to live in a society where the police to go around arresting people who "waste oil" by using leaf blowers and patio heaters?

[Expatriot]

Do you really want to live in a society where the police to go around arresting people who "waste oil" by using leaf blowers and patio heaters?

I don't want to live in a society where people are taxed on the their personal property. Whoops. Too late.

Hey. Maybe the guy was just throwing out a hypo.

By the way - Make Use Illegal and Ban sale of Item are pretty much the same thing.