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Solidarity Statement From Cairo

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Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 26 Oct 2011, 09:08:45

Solidarity Statement From Cairo

To all those in the United States currently occupying parks, squares and other spaces, your comrades in Cairo are watching you in solidarity. Having received so much advice from you about transitioning to democracy, we thought it's our turn to pass on some advice.

Indeed, we are now in many ways involved in the same struggle. What most pundits call “The Arab Spring” has its roots in the demonstrations, riots, strikes and occupations taking place all around the world, its foundations lie in years-long struggles by people and popular movements. The moment that we find ourselves in is nothing new, as we in Egypt and others have been fighting against systems of repression, disenfranchisement and the unchecked ravages of global capitalism (yes, we said it, capitalism): a System that has made a world that is dangerous and cruel to its inhabitants. As the interests of government increasingly cater to the interests and comforts of private, transnational capital, our cities and homes have become progressively more abstract and violent places, subject to the casual ravages of the next economic development or urban renewal scheme.

An entire generation across the globe has grown up realizing, rationally and emotionally, that we have no future in the current order of things. Living under structural adjustment policies and the supposed expertise of international organizations like the World Bank and IMF, we watched as our resources, industries and public services were sold off and dismantled as the “free market” pushed an addiction to foreign goods, to foreign food even. The profits and benefits of those freed markets went elsewhere, while Egypt and other countries in the South found their immiseration reinforced by a massive increase in police repression and torture.

The current crisis in America and Western Europe has begun to bring this reality home to you as well: that as things stand we will all work ourselves raw, our backs broken by personal debt and public austerity. Not content with carving out the remnants of the public sphere and the welfare state, capitalism and the austerity-state now even attack the private realm and people's right to decent dwelling as thousands of foreclosed-upon homeowners find themselves both homeless and indebted to the banks who have forced them on to the streets.

So we stand with you not just in your attempts to bring down the old but to experiment with the new. We are not protesting. Who is there to protest to? What could we ask them for that they could grant? We are occupying. We are reclaiming those same spaces of public practice that have been commodified, privatized and locked into the hands of faceless bureaucracy , real estate portfolios, and police ‘protection’. Hold on to these spaces, nurture them, and let the boundaries of your occupations grow. After all, who built these parks, these plazas, these buildings? Whose labor made them real and livable? Why should it seem so natural that they should be withheld from us, policed and disciplined? Reclaiming these spaces and managing them justly and collectively is proof enough of our legitimacy.

In our own occupations of Tahrir, we encountered people entering the Square every day in tears because it was the first time they had walked through those streets and spaces without being harassed by police; it is not just the ideas that are important, these spaces are fundamental to the possibility of a new world. These are public spaces. Spaces forgathering, leisure, meeting, and interacting – these spaces should be the reason we live in cities. Where the state and the interests of owners have made them inaccessible, exclusive or dangerous, it is up to us to make sure that they are safe, inclusive and just. We have and must continue to open them to anyone that wants to build a better world, particularly for the marginalized, excluded and for those groups who have suffered the worst .

What you do in these spaces is neither as grandiose and abstract nor as quotidian as “real democracy”; the nascent forms of praxis and social engagement being made in the occupations avoid the empty ideals and stale parliamentarianism that the term democracy has come to represent. And so the occupations must continue, because there is no one left to ask for reform. They must continue because we are creating what we can no longer wait for.

But the ideologies of property and propriety will manifest themselves again. Whether through the overt opposition of property owners or municipalities to your encampments or the more subtle attempts to control space through traffic regulations, anti-camping laws or health and safety rules. There is a direct conflict between what we seek to make of our cities and our spaces and what the law and the systems of policing standing behind it would have us do.

We faced such direct and indirect violence , and continue to face it . Those who said that the Egyptian revolution was peaceful did not see the horrors that police visited upon us, nor did they see the resistance and even force that revolutionaries used against the police to defend their tentative occupations and spaces: by the government's own admission; 99 police stations were put to the torch, thousands of police cars were destroyed, and all of the ruling party's offices around Egypt were burned down. Barricades were erected, officers were beaten back and pelted with rocks even as they fired tear gas and live ammunition on us. But at the end of the day on the 28 th of January they retreated, and we had won our cities.

It is not our desire to participate in violence, but it is even less our desire to lose. If we do not resist, actively, when they come to take what we have won back, then we will surely lose. Do not confuse the tactics that we used when we shouted “peaceful” with fetishizing nonviolence; if the state had given up immediately we would have been overjoyed, but as they sought to abuse us, beat us, kill us, we knew that there was no other option than to fight back. Had we laid down and allowed ourselves to be arrested, tortured, and martyred to “make a point”, we would be no less bloodied, beaten and dead. Be prepared to defend these things you have occupied, that you are building, because, after everything else has been taken from us, these reclaimed spaces are so very precious.

By way of concluding then, our only real advice to you is to continue, keep going and do not stop. Occupy more, find each other, build larger and larger networks and keep discovering new ways to experiment with social life, consensus, and democracy. Discover new ways to use these spaces, discover new ways to hold on to them and never give them up again. Resist fiercely when you are under attack, but otherwise take pleasure in what you are doing, let it be easy, fun even. We are all watching one another now, and from Cairo we want to say that we are in solidarity with you, and we love you all for what you are doing.

Comrades from Cairo.
24th of October, 2011.
http://occupywallst.org/


Whoever wrote this, it's quite eloquent. They're right about the one thing unifying all the global protests:

An entire generation across the globe has grown up realizing, rationally and emotionally, that we have no future


On the specific criticism of global capitalism and Egypt, honestly they are right. This has happened in one developing nation after another -- the West and now China has got them hooked on imports. They were previously food independent, now no more. Egypt's population would never have soared so high if not for artificially low cost food imports. Globalization has screwed them over the same as the working man here in the USA -- same story everywhere, Europe too, just not enough jobs because of globalization.

Now here is where I disagree with them:

We are not protesting. Who is there to protest to? What could we ask them for that they could grant? We are occupying.


That really frustrates me. Because at least in the US, we KNOW the reforms that we need. Or some of us know, anyhow. It's not rocket science. It's not impossible -- it's black and white stuff, bringing back glass-steagall and the other post great depression reforms. We need some tariffs. We need to tax the rich. We need a pro-American trade policy that has JOBS as the number one priority, not more money for the rich.

Americans could fix all these problems if they chose to; I don't like the way the OWS message drifts toward anarchy i.e. "we're not protesting, nothing can be done it's all so screwed up, so we're 'occupying'." They talk about it like the occupations are a revolution. "Expand the boundaries of your occupation" the above statement says; it sounds like a transition town or something.

That's all cool and groovy but come on, this is a democratic republic we do have the vote we know the reforms we need WHY MUST OWS SAY POLITICS IS HOPELESS? It makes me wonder if this is psy-ops. Get the people protesting in a way that eschews anything actually real, policy-wise.

Lastly, there is a hint of advocating violence in the above statement and I don't like that:

It is not our desire to participate in violence, but it is even less our desire to lose. If we do not resist, actively, when they come to take what we have won back, then we will surely lose. Do not confuse the tactics that we used when we shouted “peaceful” with fetishizing nonviolence; if the state had given up immediately we would have been overjoyed, but as they sought to abuse us, beat us, kill us, we knew that there was no other option than to fight back. Had we laid down and allowed ourselves to be arrested, tortured, and martyred to “make a point”, we would be no less bloodied, beaten and dead.


Keep in mind the above statement is posted by OWS NYC but isn't from *them*, rather the "comrades from Cairo" -- whoever that is.
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby dsula » Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:12:26

Sixstrings wrote:That really frustrates me. Because at least in the US, we KNOW the reforms that we need.

Haha. You're funny. I also KNOW what to do, but it looks just the opposite of your reform. Tax the poor, except in florida, where rich should be taxed at 99% and poor should get everything for free.
And we top it of with free moving assistance for anybody who want to move to Fl.
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby Bruce_S » Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:56:56

Sixstrings wrote:Keep in mind the above statement is posted by OWS NYC but isn't from *them*, rather the "comrades from Cairo" -- whoever that is.


Communist elements trying to wiggle themselves back to respectability?
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby DomusAlbion » Wed 26 Oct 2011, 11:16:23

Perhaps the OWS should wait and see how things turn out in the MENA before taking advice from the Arabs.

The "Arab Spring" is turning into a human nightmare.
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 26 Oct 2011, 11:36:08

dsula wrote:I also KNOW what to do, but it looks just the opposite of your reform. Tax the poor, except in florida, where rich should be taxed at 99% and poor should get everything for free.


So what's your point. You want to raise taxes on the poor and middle class.. when we're still in recession in a consumer economy.. and things are already so bad for the lower classes.. and the tax burden has already been so totally lifted off the upper brackets ever since Reagan and that's why the treasury is bankrupt.. and yet you want to tax the poor and working and middle even more.

What do I say to that. You're no better than the anarchists. At least try to trot out the old trickle down stuff.. which has not worked, we've been doing this crap since Reagan.. but at least pretend that your don't-tax-the-rich beliefs have some kind of "trickle down job creators" logic to it.

And we top it of with free moving assistance for anybody who want to move to Fl.


No jobs here. And guess what we're super low tax on the rich so there goes your theory. Not enough jobs though.. people need to leave Florida and go back north where they came from.
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby dsula » Wed 26 Oct 2011, 11:48:45

Sixstrings wrote:So what's your point.

My point was that YOUR solution might be as good a solution as mine. Or in other words ther is no solution. The solution is to understand that the life style we're used to is over, gone, out, kaputt. All the taxing of the rich wont change that.

And while we're at it. A better 'solution' is not to TAX the super rich. It is to prevent anybody getting super rich in the first place. For starters:
1. don't pay chronic welfare, only short therm support
2. greatly restrict corporations
3. tax imports from palces with lower standard than ours

BUT you have to be aware that especially (3) will result in you being able to BUY less.
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 26 Oct 2011, 12:23:04

dsula wrote:My point was that YOUR solution might be as good a solution as mine. Or in other words ther is no solution. The solution is to understand that the life style we're used to is over, gone, out, kaputt. All the taxing of the rich wont change that.


Well NOT taxing the rich won't change it either.. correct?

Here's the bottom line.. that Republicans are going to have such a hard time accepting but it's still true..

In a perfect world we could have all these billionaires and a strong working class too. But it doesn't work that way. We have so many billionaires precisely because of wealth transfer from the working and middle to the elite. It's that simple. What we're now living with the effects of 30+ years of class warfare, rich vs. poor. You may be fine with that, but a lot of people aren't.

I think you're making an end-of-growth, get used to it, we have to stop consuming anyway type argument. But tell ya what.. let's tax the top 1% too, if it's hopeless as you say then can't hurt to try right?

Getting back on topic.. the problem with OWS global solidarity is that if we really do have world unity then Europeans and Americans must get a lot poorer. It's a conundrum I'm honestly admitting.. what is this movement about.. improving the American working / middle class or income equality worldwide -- which would make we Americans even worse off.
Last edited by Sixstrings on Wed 26 Oct 2011, 12:28:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby dsula » Wed 26 Oct 2011, 12:28:40

Sixstrings wrote:
dsula wrote:My point was that YOUR solution might be as good a solution as mine. Or in other words ther is no solution. The solution is to understand that the life style we're used to is over, gone, out, kaputt. All the taxing of the rich wont change that.


Well NOT taxing the rich won't change it either.. correct?

Here's the bottom line.. that Republicans are going to have such a hard time accepting but it's still true..

In a perfect world we could have all these billionaires and a strong working class too. But it doesn't work that way. We have so many billionaires precisely because of wealth transfer from the working and middle to the elite. It's that simple. What we're now living with the effects of 30+ years of class warfare, rich vs. poor.

I think you're making an end-of-growth, get used to it, we have to stop consuming anyway type argument. But tell ya what.. let's tax the top 1% too, if it's hopeless as you say then why not try a different policy hm?

Getting back on topic.. the problem with OWS global solidarity is that if we really do have world unity then Europeans and Americans must get a lot poorer. It's a conundrum I'm honestly admitting.. what is this movement about.. improving the American working / middle class or income equality worldwide -- which would make we Americans even worse off.

Why not fix it right then ? Make it such that becoming super rich is impossible and at the same time make dependent folks take responsability for their actions.
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby dsula » Wed 26 Oct 2011, 12:39:56

I might add that a better system is one that limits income in a natural way. Because high earners who get taxed excessivly feel cheated and might just leave, which you want to avoid. It's much better to limit their income in the first place. Or in other words a system that spreads all the wealth naturaly without the tax and welfare redistribution system.
Take a close look at the situation in Switzerland which has large differences in taxes in different regions. The result is that low tax areas attract all the rich, meaning the cash strapped regions are forced to increase taxes even further, making evern worse because the remaining rich are moving too.
Do I have s solution? No I don't, as said there is probably no solutions. But one thing I'm sure taxing the rich is not a good idea. There's much better stuff out there, eg. limit trading and wall-street gambling, limit corporations etc.
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby Fishman » Wed 26 Oct 2011, 18:07:07

So if Cairo is seeking solidarity with OWS, does that mean sharia law at the the park? So when does OWS start genocide on religious groups like the folks in Cairo? Egypt's tourism has essentially dried up, can we expect that for New York also?
Obama, the FUBAR presidency gets scraped off the boot
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby Cog » Thu 27 Oct 2011, 00:19:23

Take your beheading like a man.
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby Oakley » Thu 27 Oct 2011, 04:30:24

Is Egypt better off now? I suppose that is to be seen, but it sounds like they may have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. And remember that it was the US government that long supported the dictator that drove these people to rebellion.

If they have chosen democracy, then they are in trouble. Here is a good description of what democracy is:

Never forget that the State is an evil violent institution that holds a monopoly on the use of violence within a given geographical region. The application of democracy to such an institution will always result in the most power-hungry, wealthy and perverted people assuming control over it. It takes wealth to run an election campaign. It takes connections between powerful interests to raise the money necessary for a campaign staff. The power of the State is custom tailored to suit the needs of business interests.

Such an institution can not be controlled through the ballot box. The wealthy can always buy the media they need to ensure their people are consistently elected to positions of power. Once in power, the State is then used as a shield to protect those to engage in evil.

The State protects billionaire bankers from charges of theft by legally handing them trillions of tax payer dollars in bailouts, grants, insurance contracts, and fractional reserve base money.


http://www.libertariannews.org/2011/10/ ... cumentary/

Somewhat related, here is a report from Libya that is worth watching, which is contrary to the propaganda being fed to us by the MSM:

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/23665 ... s-In-Libya

And here is yet another video on Libya I found interesting. Compare the background in Libya which shows modern, well kept buildings, clean streets, many modern cars, and well dressed people and compare this to Egypt, or to rotting US cities like Detroit. To my mind, this indicates that in Libya the wealth was being used for the majority, while in Egypt and the US the wealth is being used for the privileged few. Perhaps we are being fed a pack of lies. I think the Occupy people see the right problem, but the wrong solution. The solution is to end government control over our lives and our markets which markets are rigged to fleece us instead of benefit us. You don't escape the plunder and control of government with more government; government is the antithesis of freedom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... JURNC0e6Ek
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Re: Solidarity Statement From Cairo

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 27 Oct 2011, 09:30:09

Is Egypt better off now? I suppose that is to be seen, but it sounds like they may have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. And remember that it was the US government that long supported the dictator that drove these people to rebellion.



What do you mean by 'better off'? :?:
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