[Pops]

Voters Defeat Many G.O.P.-Sponsored Measures

Voters turned a skeptical eye toward conservative-backed measures across the country Tuesday, rejecting an anti-labor law in Ohio, an anti-abortion measure in Mississippi and a crackdown on voting rights in Maine.

Seems like the pendulum is swinging faster and faster. So what is the upshot here - does it indicate anything?

The US is a middle right country, or has been, are the TEAs and these very right wing ideas just too far out? They've obviously pulled the discussion to the right short term but will it stay?


Be civil in my thread or you're wasting your time posting.

[DomusAlbion]

I think you're spot on, Pops. The Tea Party may have tried to pull the majority too far to the Right.

I doubt however that the pendulum will swing back too much to the Left just yet, but may wobble somewhere near the center right. Of course I'm speaking from my own prejudice, preference and hope.

If the economy continues to suffer (as per PO theory it will)) and more people are pushed into a desperate state I'm sure we'll see a swing further to the left and then worse.

[careinke]

I don't know, Washington State gave up their monopoly on hard liquor sales and will soon be out of the government run liquor stores (our Dem Gov voted against the measure). Seattle also soundly, (pun intended), rejected a $60 increase in car tabs, which was supposed to be used for public transportation and infrastructure.

The Mississippi anti abortion measure was seriously flawed and unworkable. It was good that the voters recognized that, and defeated it.

I think the American people have given up on both the Dems and the Reps and are looking for a new paradigm. Un/Fortunately, the one they are going to end up with, is going to be way different than either side is looking for.

Very interesting times ahead.

[DomusAlbion]

Washington State gave up their monopoly on hard liquor sales and will soon be out of the government run liquor stores

Whoot! We do all our grocery shopping in Washington because the state does not tax food, unlike Idaho. So soon we'll be able to buy our Glenfiddich and Jose Cuervo at discounted prices. Good.

[Plantagenet]

The MSM hypes voting results that it likes, but downplays other voting results that the MSM doesn't like. For instance, the MSM didn't see Colorado's vote to reject tax increases a month ago as a sign of democratic overreach.

In the election on Tuesday Ohio voted to pull the entire state out of the Obamacare insurance mandate, but I've yet to see a single news report on that in the MSM. The MSM wants us to believe that a vote in Ohio in favor of unions is very important and has national significance, but a vote in Ohio against Obamacare isn't significant at all.

Ohio votes to opt out of Obamacare---

[careinke]

The MSM hypes voting results that it likes, but downplays other voting results that the MSM doesn't like.

I wish they would stop that. It gives false hope to some of our members, and even makes some of them delusional.

[gollum]

I'd have to say that taken as a whole the elections were a move towards the center. Most people don't want big government health care or higher taxes to pay for stupid shit, but neither do they want to see abortion banned or collective bargaining rights gutted.

[Pops]

I changed the title to be a little more PC - actually I was surprised when I saw the thread in the list because I was thinking about overreach in both directions when I started it! That's not a Freudian slip or is it?

Anyway I'll be surprised if the SCOTUS doesn't take up the individual mandate this year. We should be talking about peak health instead of peak oil!



I'm not too sure how O-Care can be overreach since it didn't go nearly as far as the left wanted - it didn't even go as far as negotiating with pharma or providing for the Public Option.

The number has been drilled into Republicans’ heads – 76% of Americans disapprove of the Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare. What is never mentioned is that 38%, half of those 76%, disapprove because there was no public option. The “there’s no public option” disapproval is never discussed among conservatives because that would totally skew the numbers and show that 62% of us agreed to the concept of reforming health insurance.

Did Romney Really Propose A Public Health Care Option?

[basil_hayden]

A patient can get 10 dissolvable tabs of Zofran (anti-nausea) not covered by insurance for $60 or can go to the emergency room 10 times for free. What would you do and why aren't situations like this addressed? Oh yeah, forgot to mention the nausea was caused by a Percoset prescription (which contains Tylenol) for migraines to a patient allergic to Tylenol.


The medical and medical insurance system is so backwards it deserves bankruptcy.

As far as the pendulum swinging, it's obvious that the right calculates what the left will do then throws the cream pie in their face every four years. The left is too dumb to see it coming. I try to stay out of the swinging pendulum while sawing at the base hoping for a collapse sooner than later.

[gollum]

A patient can get 10 dissolvable tabs of Zofran (anti-nausea) not covered by insurance for $60 or can go to the emergency room 10 times for free. What would you do and why aren't situations like this addressed? Oh yeah, forgot to mention the nausea was caused by a Percoset prescription (which contains Tylenol) for migraines to a patient allergic to Tylenol.


The medical and medical insurance system is so backwards it deserves bankruptcy.

As far as the pendulum swinging, it's obvious that the right calculates what the left will do then throws the cream pie in their face every four years. The left is too dumb to see it coming. I try to stay out of the swinging pendulum while sawing at the base hoping for a collapse sooner than later.

That someone can get $60 of medicine for free at the emergency room argues to me first that the public health system should be expanded by a massive amount. It sounds like a decision a PA could have made a lot cheaper than tying up am ER bed with nurses and doctors. Those $60 worth of pills probably cost under $6 to make and cost the country probably $600 in staffing and operational costs. Even a totally free walk in clinic paid for with tax dollars and giving out free medications to the poor would be much more affordable.

[basil_hayden]

Couldn't agree more gollum, it's proabably $600 per ER visit.

But screw the medical insurance company - if they don't want to listen to reason.

That's where I'm at with the "system" in its many forms - medical, insurance, politics, energy, etc.

Is it possible to bust something that's already busted? Who's accountable?

[Pops]

Hospitals are required to treat but they don't care they just pass the inflated and unnecessary cost to insurance cos.
Insurance cos don't care, they just mark it up and pass it on to consumers...
Who were told that universal care would increase their taxes.

[Tanada]

Hi Pops,

Just because Ohio voted down Government Union reform does not mean that people around here are happy with Government Union contracts. Between the fact that the Democrats/Unions demagoging the issue claiming fire and police forces would be cut and the Republicans throwing every possible reform they could think of into one massive law (around 800 pages of legalese) the voters decided to go with BAU until something better comes along.

Pass sensible reform and you will get massive support, in Ohio the average Government Union worker gets 50% more pay and benefits than his private sector counterpart, both Unionized and not. The gravy train is losing steam in the face of Peak Oil, the cities can't afford high fuel costs and golden plated benefits. Something has got to give.

[Loki]

That NYT article sounded more like a liberal opinion piece than neutral journalism. But I'm glad most of this garbage legislation by the radical right has been repudiated.

The GOP does seem to be overreaching, particularly in the Midwest. Funny, though, here in Oregon the Republicans seem to be behaving themselves and working with the Dems on a lot of issues. This isn't typical.

in Ohio the average Government Union worker gets 50% more pay and benefits than his private sector counterpart, both Unionized and not.

I doubt this very much.

[dorlomin]

All incumbents are being crushed in the polls. A part of this is only the same thing. Other factors will be at play but its likely that anything strongly sponsored the local ruling party will get caught in a backlash.

Also the parties themselves (well the republicans) are retreating to their base support, this is influencing their policies.

The American voter seems to be somewhat caught in the headlights and not really have a clear idea of what to do about the current malaise. This creates instability and unpredictability in politics where politicians can get caught up thinking votes are in one direction yet they go another way.

[gollum]

Hi Pops,

Just because Ohio voted down Government Union reform does not mean that people around here are happy with Government Union contracts. Between the fact that the Democrats/Unions demagoging the issue claiming fire and police forces would be cut and the Republicans throwing every possible reform they could think of into one massive law (around 800 pages of legalese) the voters decided to go with BAU until something better comes along.

Pass sensible reform and you will get massive support, in Ohio the average Government Union worker gets 50% more pay and benefits than his private sector counterpart, both Unionized and not. The gravy train is losing steam in the face of Peak Oil, the cities can't afford high fuel costs and golden plated benefits. Something has got to give.

I agree with your assessment, what really riled people up was trying to take away collective bargaining. If however the governor would have put politics aside and just negotiated hard with the unions he would have come out a winner. On the merits of pay and benefits alone a good majority of Americans think government workers are overpaid.

[Fishman]

I wouldn't call it political overreach. Lets see what counts, Obamacame mandate in obvious unionized Ohio was voted against, the Virginia Senate seems to have gone Republican. Poor Ohio has been struck by another attack of Blue state disease so businesses wil leave the state, perhaps a Midwest version of California, expect unemplyment to get worse there.

Pops, your graph of healthcare was most informative. We spent far more per person but still don't cover over 10% of the population. To cover everyone in ANY form of care, and bend the cost curve, will require a HUGE reduction in costs (care) on average for the individual. You can trim all the insurance overhead you want and that won't bend the curve more than a slight amount. Example of the difference, in the US many if not most people get a colonoscopy for colon cancer screening, very pricey but very effective. In Canada and England, you get stool cards to check for blood, and only get a colonoscopy if the test is positive. MUCH cheaper, and MUCH less effective at screening for cancer, but every one is covered. If the doc misses a diagnosis in a timely manner, you ability to sue is dramaticly less than the US. Pick your care and hope for the best.
Here's a quote from a British tort firm "If you win, most of your costs, provided they are reasonable, would be recoverable from the defence. If, however, your claim failed then under our legal system you would be ordered to pay the costs of the successful defence. If you are funding the case personally that would be in addition to your own costs"

[Serial_Worrier]

Too bad Ohioans just committed economic suicide.

[Anvil]

Oops there goes the rest of the USA.

[Pops]

Pass sensible reform and you will get massive support,

This is my point.

Most people on this board would agree things are different this time and will be even differenter in the future. It only makes sense that governments have the ability to adapt to changing conditions.

But

I don't understand how that is an excuse to remove what little leverage is available to labor. Even more, I don't understand why wage earners are so eager to see their own position undermined.