[Novus]

Regime Change in Europe: Do Greece and Italy Amount to a Bankers' Coup?


The voice of the people isn't something the markets seem to want to hear these days. First there was Greece, the cradle of democracy itself, where early this month, the merest mention of a referendum offering its citizens a say in a series of severe austerity measures was enough to send the markets into a tailspin. The ultimate result: the collapse of Prime Minister George Papandreou's ruling coalition, the rejection of any notion of bringing the proposal before the people, and the installation of a caretaker government under the leadership of Lucas Papademos, a former vice president of the European Central Bank and, until earlier this week, a visiting professor at Harvard.

Then came Italy. As Athens threatened to go under, Rome found itself under pressure not so much for its level of debt — which though high is generally considered within the limits of sustainability — as much as for the erratic behavior of its flamboyant prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi. On Monday, investors seemed to make the collective decision that he could no longer be trusted at the helm of the euro zone's third largest economy and sent Italy's cost of borrowing up towards crisis levels. By the end of the week, not only was Berlusconi finished, so was the very idea of holding a vote to replace him. The markets had spoken, and they didn't like the idea of going to the electorate. "The country needs reforms, not elections," said Herman Van Rompuy, president of the European Council on a visit to Rome Friday.

Also the new Prime Minister of Greece was picked by US and EU bankers. Lucas Papademos got on a plane flew to Greece and become the Prime Minister in a day without being elected. And to top it off he was the one who introduced the Euro to Greece. This is an out and out conquest and land grab. To see this talked about openly in the MSM is amazing.

The world wide leaders do NOT want Democracy. They want financial dictatorship and they are going to get it if people don't revolt.

[Fishman]

Seems more a debtor's self induced slavery. Numerous religious warn about debt and the slavery that comes afterward.

[davep]

Seems more a debtor's self induced slavery. Numerous religious warn about debt and the slavery that comes afterward.

So what happens to the US then?

[ItalyRules]

The debt itself was imposed upon the masses to absorb the losses of the bankers. It is not out debt, it is the debt of the 1%.

We will no longer prop up the 1%. The only reason they are still the 1% is because they controlled the governments who then borrowed money to refill the coffers of the 1% then applied the debt to the 99%.

Hell No! We are not bending over for the 1% Sandusky's out there.

We refuse to shower with the 1%.

[Sixstrings]

Seems more a debtor's self induced slavery. Numerous religious warn about debt and the slavery that comes afterward.

So what happens to the US then?

That's a good question.

What will we Americans do if we lose our right to vote as well. What would be the mechanism I wonder.. I don't think a dictator panel is constitutional, yet the Super Committee comes close. Technically that could be constitutional -- a small committee of bankster dictator congressmen, or heck even one man, and then Congress rubber stamps it.

So what would we the people do? Just accept it as nonchalantly as the Europeans? I sure hope not.. the United States founded modern democracy. We've had the vote for well over 200 years now. Nations around the world are modeled after us. I sure hope we aren't next to lose constitutional government.

Christ, the right wing NWO tinfoilers were right all along.

[PrestonSturges]

Keep in mind that the GOP is out to deprive as many people of their right to vote as possible in 2012.

[Sixstrings]

Keep in mind that the GOP is out to deprive as many people of their right to vote as possible in 2012.

That's bare knuckles street level voter suppression. And yes you're right about it.

But this tread is about the wave of bankster dictatorships. Dictatorship is much worse than mere voter suppression, under dictatorship we don't have a say AT ALL, NOBODY'S VOTE COUNTS.

We're close to that as it is with the Federal Reserve.. but if Congress goes the European route and delegates power to a panel of technocrat banksters to force taxes and austerity on us then it's over -- no more democracy at the national level.

[Novus]

Christ, the right wing NWO tinfoilers were right all along.

It is Tin until it is Not right.

The crazy thing is that people are in such deep denial over the whole NWO conspiracy. If you say Illuminati people think you are the crazy one. But the thing is they are real and the tinfoilers were right as things are unfolding just as they said it would. The main point about those who talk about a one world government they are not talking about a Democratic institution but a Dictatorship. These are sick evil people here.

[Whitefang]

Just like voting in the Sovjet were an act of stupidity, we never had a say in the control of our management, just cheap energy providing for our priviliges like driving and flying high on our self importance and pity.
After that military coup in Florida year 2000, the western powers that be started this petty war of terror in earnest, global idiocy.
Our world empire is at its last legs and soon to crumble into nothingness.

Food and water will soon be the next luxery items with climate out of order and control, sure our regime will try keep it together with green zones, mines, fences, camera's and martial law..........survival of the best prepared.
Best head North and see how deep this hole will go.

[Fishman]

You lefties are in such a snit fit because your dream man O was such a disaster, everything you've worked for over 5 decades is collapsing. Boo hoo. Peak oil would have done the same, he's just been such a great catalyst for progressive failure,
Italy, you gotta take that flea party talk elsewhere. It makes little sense on the street and no sense here. I agree you won't shower with the 1%, because you won't shower anyway. Answer the simple question I asked of you.
And Preston, simple preston, 30 states already had some sort of voter ID, its not new, the people support it, including over 60% of Democrats. Perhaps suppression of the dead and illegal votes. I guess you have to start that voter suppression crap early because you know O is going to lose big time

[Outcast_Searcher]

The debt itself was imposed upon the masses to absorb the losses of the bankers. It is not out debt, it is the debt of the 1%.

We will no longer prop up the 1%. The only reason they are still the 1% is because they controlled the governments who then borrowed money to refill the coffers of the 1% then applied the debt to the 99%.

Hell No! We are not bending over for the 1% Sandusky's out there.

We refuse to shower with the 1%.

Yes, that's reasonable.

It's all the mean old bankers and the folks who work hard and make a lot of money. The people who create the jobs -- and now don't want to invest due to the threat of confiscitory redistrubitionist policies. The people who don't trust a RICH president who constantly criticizes the successful and profitable corporations and small businessmen for being "too successful".

All the liar loans, all the people who acted irresponsibly and bought houses, cars, and all other manner of stupid stuff they couldn't afford -- even BEFORE the jobs market got soft -- NONE of it was their fault.

Yeah, keep camping out illegally, blaming the people who are being incented NOT to create jobs, and of course whining that it isn't fair. That will fix EVERYTHING.

Well, good luck with THAT. No wonder the job creators are punting and investing in Asia, in third world growth, etc. No wonder corporations are outsourcing like crazy.

And of course, NEVER offer a compromise. That would be too reasonable as well. I think we ALL need to pay more taxes (not just "soak the rich"). I think we ALL need to accept some cuts in ALL programs. If we actually balance the budget, get a credible grip on our fiscal problems, and take care of long term needs like education and infrastructure -- we ALL give something up, and we ALL get a better future for it.

But no -- better to camp out and yell at successful people, even if it means the destruction of the American middle class.

Absolutely brilliant thinking. Poverty is MUCH better than compromise or reasonableness or long term thinking.

[Cloud9]

What slammed the door on Rome was climate collapse. The corrupt inept social structure could have limped along for another thousand years had it not been for a volcano.

The rich I know are survivalists with deep pockets. They have bio fuels, farm land and munitions. They like the rest of us are trying to secure their families. The oligarchs are beyond greedy but even they must have a gnawing sense that things are slipping away. I suspect out of self interest they are desperately trying to patch together some combination that will allow the status quo to go on a little longer.

The zeitgeist of the body politic is turning dark. The last hope for hope may very well have been Obama. We are now entering a cynical phase where more and more of the body politic is sensing that it what ever it is cannot be fixed.

A revolution may start with a street riot but to be a revolution it must have an over arching dialogue that seizes the imagination. Burn down Wall Street, hang the bankers and shrink government are currents in the stream they are not a revolution. Those currents can be easily contained with a few thousand prosecutions.

An energy rich environment has allowed central planners to meddle in many of the things that historically were local concerns. They have replaced key elements such as social organizations, churches and the family with institutions.

Now that we are on the back side of the energy curve, those institutions are unsustainable. Consequently the functions they performed are going to revert back to the local level. The duplication of organizations will come to an end because they are no longer affordable. The statist lament the proposed end of the Federal Department of Education failing to realize that every state has its own department of education. The Baptist mafia freaks over the possibility of the feds legalizing drugs failing to realize that state laws making those same drugs illegal will still be in place.

The military industrial complex cannot run off of cooking oil. It will shrink as well.

Half the population does not pay any income tax. The John Galt moment is happening every day as one small business after another closes. The economic base of the oligarchs is unraveling. Many of the institutions we relied on without cheap oil will become as useless as a cell phone with a dead battery. What cannot be sustained will not be sustained. Detroit is the face of things to come.

[vision-master]

Half the population does not pay any income tax.

Say's who?

[Rod_Cloutier]

Ecological collapse will find its way into every corner of society. The wealthy and the super wealthy need to eat just like anyone else. A hundred million in the bank, 5 cars, a mansion, a yacht, and so forth, but no food on the table and the wealthy will be demanding social reform with the rest of us!

We saw this in the rationing that occured after Katrina in New Orleans. Fights broke out because wealthy people were trying to demand more of their fair share of rations. As we destroy the ecological supports for society, the rich will suffer as well.

[Novus]

So much cognitive dissonance and and Schadenfreude in this thread it makes it difficult to discuss the subject matter in a rational way. It is like you just witnessed a double murder but the reaction I am hearing is: "It is not my problem" and "they deserved it." This conclusion would be wrong on both counts. First two democracies were just killed and secondly the central banking cartel is like a criminal organization that comes around once a month to extort money from the people through the bond market. If the interest rate doubles in a week it like your debt just doubled. No country can pay it if there interest rates double over night.


Even on this forum people have a hard time understanding how banking works.

Europe needs growth to repay their debts. That article begs the question of what happens if there is no growth. The whole financial system is designed around constant growth. This is incompatible with a world of finite resources where reality will force an end to growth. In this reality there is only one possible outcome. The debt Cannot be repaid and banking system must come to an end. There used to be people on this forum who understood this concept because this is a peak oil forum and we know about the limits to growth.

Think about where does the money to repay the interest come from? If there was only one dollar in the whole world and it was loaned out how can the interest be repaid. If there is only $1 in the whole world and you owe the banker $2 because of interest the loan can't be repaid and you end up just being the bankers' slave. This is a scam that is old as civilization itself and there is a reason most societies outlawed usury. If you took all the money in the world and then took all the debt in the world and piled them next to each the debt pile would be larger than the money pile. The money to repay the interest on the loans was never created so the money needed to repay the loan doesn't exist. These systems always collapsed under their own weight because in the end there was only one real dollar and the rest where all debt dollars that could never be repaid. One way or another those debt dollars must be defaulted on.

[careinke]

Even on this forum people have a hard time understanding how banking works.

Europe needs growth to repay their debts. That article begs the question of what happens if there is no growth. The whole financial system is designed around constant growth. This is incompatible with a world of finite resources where reality will force an end to growth. In this reality there is only one possible outcome. The debt Cannot be repaid and banking system must come to an end. There used to be people on this forum who understood this concept because this is a peak oil forum and we know about the limits to growth.

Think about where does the money to repay the interest come from? If there was only one dollar in the whole world and it was loaned out how can the interest be repaid. If there is only $1 in the whole world and you owe the banker $2 because of interest the loan can't be repaid and you end up just being the bankers' slave. This is a scam that is old as civilization itself and there is a reason most societies outlawed usury. If you took all the money in the world and then took all the debt in the world and piled them next to each the debt pile would be larger than the money pile. The money to repay the interest on the loans was never created so the money needed to repay the loan doesn't exist. These systems always collapsed under their own weight because in the end there was only one real dollar and the rest where all debt dollars that could never be repaid. One way or another those debt dollars must be defaulted on.

+1 Nice post Novus.

This concept seems very hard for people to understand. I usually refer them to the film "Money as Debt". It breaks it down into easily digestible bites. Here is the Link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544

[Oneaboveall]

So much cognitive dissonance and and Schadenfreude in this thread it makes it difficult to discuss the subject matter in a rational way. It is like you just witnessed a double murder but the reaction I am hearing is: "It is not my problem" and "they deserved it." This conclusion would be wrong on both counts. First two democracies were just killed and secondly the central banking cartel is like a criminal organization that comes around once a month to extort money from the people through the bond market. If the interest rate doubles in a week it like your debt just doubled. No country can pay it if there interest rates double over night...

And when I complained about this the other day, one of the mods accused me of "whining and crying".

I wonder, do people here really want to go back to a system where there is one lord surrounded by peasants? Aren't people here the least bit concerned by the effective repeal of the 20th Century? Of the Enlightenment? Do you realise that you will be a peasant, not a lord?

[Plantagenet]

...The whole financial system is designed around constant growth. This is incompatible with a world of finite resources where reality will force an end to growth. In this reality there is only one possible outcome. The debt Cannot be repaid and ... you end up just being the bankers' slave.

Yup. Its called "debt slavery or debt bondage"

In ancient Greece there was no concept of bankruptcy. People who couldn't pay their debts were sold into slavery.

A more modern version of debt slavery was the debtor's prison in England. Many of the people England sent to colonize Virgina and Australia were people dragooned from debtors prisons---they agreed to emigrate and work for a set number of years as bonded laborers to work off their debt.

Now we are seeing entire European countries becoming debt slaves to the EU central bank---first Greece and Ireland, then Portugal and Spain, and now Italy.

[vision-master]

Deuteronomy 15:2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the LORD's time for canceling debts has been proclaimed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 15:9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin.

[Novus]

Here are a couple of visuals to help send the message home:

First is the ratio of debt to money in the real economy.



This is what 40 years of kicking the can down the road as gotten us since the collapse of Brenton Woods. We now have 1600 trillion in debt liabilities mortgaged against an economy that is only 55 trillion in global GDP. This debt has to be written off in the near future as the can no longer be kicked down the road.

Second is the nature of debt in the first place.



Wealth is created by working people making useful things by hand if necessary. The problem is the rich are taking the wealth created by the people and keeping it for themselves while putting those who actually do the wealth creating in debt. Workers aren't even entitled to nominal pay anymore, but rather they OWE as DEBTS what's paid to them in exchange for their labor. Thing about that. The Man not only owns you, but he wants PAID BACK for what little he gives you.

To acknowledge these two realities is wake up from the Matrix. There is no spoon. There is no debt. It is just an illusion we need to wake up from.