Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state economy?

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state economy?

Unread postby Graeme » Fri 13 Jan 2012, 17:32:45

Will New Zealand be the first developed country to evolve a steady-state economy?

New Zealand will inevitably make a transition to a steady-state economy. The onset of energy descent — having less and less energy to use with each passing decade — will push it to do so sooner rather than later. The critical question is whether the transition to a steady-state economy will be by design or disaster.

It is a safe prediction that New Zealand will eventually develop a steady-state economy, one characterised by stable or mildly fluctuating levels in population and consumption of energy and materials, with birth rates on par with death rates, and production on par with depreciation, all within levels of material throughput that do not exceed ecological limits.[1]

This is the inevitable outcome for all nations whether they set this goal or not. The reality of a steady-state economy will be determined in the end by non-negotiable natural laws rather than government edicts. How well human needs will be met in this process will be determined by whether we accept the challenge of ensuring our policies and practices are compatible with these natural laws. If they are, we have some chance of evolving a desirable steady-state economy that meets human needs into the foreseeable future — the good design scenario. If we continue policies which violate these natural laws we will also get to a steady-state economy — but one which is so degraded that it provides little output for human wellbeing — the disaster scenario.


energybulletin
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
User avatar
Graeme
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13258
Joined: Fri 04 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: New Zealand

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby kiwichick » Fri 13 Jan 2012, 21:36:43

birth rates on par with death rates?
User avatar
kiwichick
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2267
Joined: Sat 02 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Southland New Zealand

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby Lore » Fri 13 Jan 2012, 21:40:28

No such thing. They're talking about the fantasy of a perpetual motion machine.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
Lore
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9021
Joined: Fri 26 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Fear Of A Blank Planet

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 13 Jan 2012, 21:47:42

Ever heard that the virtually all one way migration from NZ to the big island west of there increases the average IQ of both countries? This morning I heard a story from NZ the economists there are very worried that if anything happens to collapse tourism, their whole economy goes down the gurgler.

On the other hand the place does have a lot going for it, good volcanic soils, plenty of water and a fairly tough population.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9285
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby Lore » Fri 13 Jan 2012, 22:03:59

SeaGypsy wrote:This morning I heard a story from NZ the economists there are very worried that if anything happens to collapse tourism, their whole economy goes down the gurgler.


Yes, but the funny thing, as opposed to the US and Western Europe, is that the flush goes counter clockwise!
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
Lore
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9021
Joined: Fri 26 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Fear Of A Blank Planet

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby yeahbut » Sat 14 Jan 2012, 04:44:49

Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state economy?

Not if the voting public of NZ has any say in the matter. We have just re-elected a conservative govt even more hostile to issues of sustainability and sensible long-term planning than the previous "left-wing" (yeah right!) Labour govt.

A rather more relevant couple of paragraphs from the same article:

New Zealand’s geographic isolation will be a major factor in its experience of energy descent. A relatively small market at the far end of the energy supply chain, New Zealand is particularly vulnerable to both reduced supplies and high energy prices — one of the easiest customers to drop in favour of larger, closer and more lucrative markets. A market-driven energy decline could be both unexpected and abrupt.

A serious danger is that New Zealand will increase its foreign debt to maintain energy and other vital supplies. The ensuing debt slavery would quickly erode the nation’s autonomy and accelerate the depletion of its natural resources. New Zealand’s natural endowments may attract imperial powers willing to use both economic and military advantages to secure its resources for their own use. This “disaster” path to a steady-state economy will enrich a few in the short term but devastate New Zealand’s land, impoverish its people and ensure a bleak future for generations to come. Unless it is challenged, the current growth-oriented political mindset, influenced as it is by wealthy vested interests, will see this course vigorously pursued.

There is an exciting and inspiring alternative to this negative scenario: New Zealand appreciates that it will be the first developed country to seriously suffer from energy descent and prepares accordingly.


An exciting and inspiring alternative. Sounds neat! And not even on the horizon. The only parties that address these issues at all are the Greens and the Maori party. They remain fringe, and are regarded as nutbars by most. I see no trend towards public awareness of the issues raised in the article, but rather a move of public opinion in exactly the opposite direction.
User avatar
yeahbut
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue 30 Oct 2007, 03:00:00

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby kiwichick » Sat 14 Jan 2012, 23:33:03

did the greens get 11% of the vote in the last election?


and who are the 18 - 24 's voting for?
User avatar
kiwichick
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2267
Joined: Sat 02 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Southland New Zealand

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 00:01:33

Sounds good, but I wouldn't bet on it. You have a neighbor that is much to close who would love to sell you as much coal as you could ever possibly manage to burn.

I'd say, as long as Australia is exporting coal, NZ has no chance of achieving and remaining at steady state.
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
AgentR11
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6374
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 09:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 13:56:23

User avatar
ralfy
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5603
Joined: Sat 28 Mar 2009, 11:36:38
Location: The Wasteland

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 14:11:27

ralfy's vid link worth clicking.
Very Funny!
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
AgentR11
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6374
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 09:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby yeahbut » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 16:58:31

AgentR11 wrote:ralfy's vid link worth clicking.
Very Funny!


:lol: For years now I have been saying that we (NZ) need to invade the hell out of a small Pacific nation. That way, in the future when imperialist forces are eyeballing NZ as their next port of call, their military advisors will say: "Are you crazy? Didn't you see what they did to Fiji?" :-D
User avatar
yeahbut
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue 30 Oct 2007, 03:00:00

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 18:05:11

yeahbut wrote:Not if the voting public of NZ has any say in the matter. We have just re-elected a conservative govt even more hostile to issues of sustainability and sensible long-term planning than the previous "left-wing" (yeah right!) Labour govt.


You make it sound like every time a right-wing government gets elected like it's some kind of invading virus destroying the perfect healthy socialism.
User avatar
Serial_Worrier
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu 05 Jun 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 18:06:16

kiwichick wrote:did the greens get 11% of the vote in the last election?


and who are the 18 - 24 's voting for?


I'm sure the 18-24s are voting Green and Socialist for now. But wait until they get older, get married, have kids and they will become more conservative. That's the way it happens.
User avatar
Serial_Worrier
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu 05 Jun 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby yeahbut » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 18:12:35

Serial_Worrier wrote:
yeahbut wrote:Not if the voting public of NZ has any say in the matter. We have just re-elected a conservative govt even more hostile to issues of sustainability and sensible long-term planning than the previous "left-wing" (yeah right!) Labour govt.


You make it sound like every time a right-wing government gets elected like it's some kind of invading virus destroying the perfect healthy socialism.


There is simply no question that the Nats are even further away from seriously considering the kinds of issues raised in the article in the OP than Labour were. But not much. Like most countries, apart from social policy you can barely get a cigarette paper between the two main parties these days.
User avatar
yeahbut
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue 30 Oct 2007, 03:00:00

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 18:24:46

yeahbut wrote:There is simply no question that the Nats are even further away from seriously considering the kinds of issues raised in the article in the OP than Labour were. But not much. Like most countries, apart from social policy you can barely get a cigarette paper between the two main parties these days.


When both sides dehumanize each other, there can't be any real progress towards our mutual goal which is sustainability. Or is it the goal of the greens - because sometimes I wonder if they're just wanting a dieoff and could care less about sustainability.
User avatar
Serial_Worrier
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu 05 Jun 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby yeahbut » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 19:07:37

Serial_Worrier wrote:When both sides dehumanize each other, there can't be any real progress towards our mutual goal which is sustainability.


Not sure where you get "dehumanize" from SW. My post was simply pointing out that I don't see any trend in the voting public towards sustainability, quite the opposite. The National party won an historic victory in the Nov '11 elections, with one of the biggest percentage wins in its history(altho there was a pitifully low voter turn out), on a platform that was not notable for it's long-term sustainability plans.

Yes the Greens did get a bigger slice of the vote than they ever have before, but it appeared to be directly cannabilised from the Labour party so didn't really change the political landscape much at all.

Or is it the goal of the greens - because sometimes I wonder if they're just wanting a dieoff and could care less about sustainability.


Hmmm. Speaking of dehumanizing remarks...
User avatar
yeahbut
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue 30 Oct 2007, 03:00:00

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 19:13:57

yeahbut wrote:Not sure where you get "dehumanize" from SW. My post was simply pointing out that I don't see any trend in the voting public towards sustainability, quite the opposite. The National party won an historic victory in the Nov '11 elections, with one of the biggest percentage wins in its history(altho there was a pitifully low voter turn out), on a platform that was not notable for it's long-term sustainability plans.


When greens talk about the opposition as "climate deniers" on par with holocaust deniers that's dehumanizing language designed to end any and all debate on the topic.

Hmmm. Speaking of dehumanizing remarks...


Well there are SOME greens on this board which seem to be gloating at the idea of a mass die-off.
User avatar
Serial_Worrier
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu 05 Jun 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby kiwichick » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 20:59:31

hi sw

yes of course it is natural to assume that

and you will probably be right, to a degree

until the sh@t hits the fan

and then all bets are off

i'd suggest that at least a percentage of the population will support the political party that is shown to be closest to reality

of course the opposite might also be true
User avatar
kiwichick
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2267
Joined: Sat 02 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Southland New Zealand

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby kiwichick » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 21:07:56

sw

don't know anybody in their right mind wishing for a dieoff

however that is extremly likely unless we start facing up to reality

as james lovelock has stated the sustainable population level is probably less than 1 billion.... and possibly a lot less
User avatar
kiwichick
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2267
Joined: Sat 02 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Southland New Zealand

Re: Will NZ be the 1st country to evolve a steady state econ

Unread postby kiwichick » Sun 15 Jan 2012, 21:15:25

agent r 11

nz is already producing 70% of it's electricity from renewables and aiming for 100%

they can easily go to 100% with more geothermal and adding wave or solar

one of nz's biggest assets is that it is hundreds of kilometres from the nearest land

however it's economy has a large % of tourism in it and that will collapse
User avatar
kiwichick
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2267
Joined: Sat 02 Aug 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Southland New Zealand

Next

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 10 guests