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Why the gift to the bankers?

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Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby Quinny » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 14:47:53

Some might say this should be in Eurozone thread, but I wanted to address a specific issue and 'educate' myself.

Could someone please explain to me why the ECB recently lent money to the banks at virtually no interest so they could then use it to buy bonds to support PIIGS debt? These bonds mean that countries are paying high interest rates that screw up their cances of recovery.

Why didn't the ECB simply loan at low interest rates directly to the Greek/Italian etc government?

It seems like a scam where the bond dealers will rake in massive commissions based on value of bonds, (even if they are worthless).

Many here support the market/capitalist system so there must be someone out there who can explain how/why this can happen. :(
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 15:05:48

Maybe you've not caught on, but "money" right now, and for the past few decades, has been a very successful scam. It works because those that create it go to a lot of trouble to imbue it with value before it hits the streets. If this little fantasy goes away; we'll be just a few short moments from Wiemar republic inflation bonanza. We still have some folks here in the US that think money should be real, and we should take the covers off, yada yada; just pretending to themselves that it won't explode in their faces before they can even get out the door of the meeting.

So, yeah, there's a very real reason the printer -> bank -> bond purchase is done, as opposed to printer -> bond purchase. The first maintains the illusion of value; the second does not. And the moment everyone has to openly acknowledge that they are trading grain, gas, and guns for pretty slips of paper is the moment people have to acknowledge that they are buying and selling using something that a few individuals can print an arbitrary and near infinite amount of, any time they please.

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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby Pops » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 16:07:32

The banks are technically insolvent, so they borrow at low rates and buy bonds (loan) at high rates.

So now everyone looks solvent on paper and that's all that counts.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby Quinny » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 16:28:55

I get it, but was wondering if anyone who supports the fiat/ponzimoney/capitalism scam could up with a legitimate explanation.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 16:34:28

I know of nothing more legitimate than stating flatly.

Without it, we starve.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby Quinny » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 16:46:43

So if the middleman was cut out in the above transaction there would be less food to go around??

Sorry but that doesn't compute.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 16:49:39

AgentR11 wrote:So, yeah, there's a very real reason the printer -> bank -> bond purchase is done, as opposed to printer -> bond purchase. The first maintains the illusion of value; the second does not.
They could skip the "bond purchase" bit and just hand over banknotes hot off the press, wouldn't make much difference since the bonds will never be paid off. But that would be even less delusionary.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby smiley » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 17:05:21

Many here support the market/capitalist system so there must be someone out there who can explain how/why this can happen


Well I'm not a strong supporter of the capitalist system, but I can see some reasoning behind it.

* The aid is non specific. If you are a bank you can choose which PIIG to invest in. It is up to the countries themselves to present the arguments for investing in them. The PIIGS compete against each other, they cannot lean back and let the money flow in.
* Direct buying of bonds has the disadvantage that you drive the yield lower to a point where the ECB would be the only one buying bonds. This construction does not choke the normal market valuation mechnism.

I guess this plan originates in the, German born, ECB philosophy towards the markets. In principle Germans hate interventions in any market. For instance there is no CH11; if Contintental, American Airlines, United Airlines, Chrysler, General Motors, Texaco would have been German, they would have been hacked up in pieces and sold to the dogs.

In this case they grudgingly accept that they need to do something. Since they cannot let them simply die, they look for the construction which makes the countries involved suffer and bleed as much as possible (economic waterboarding), and has the least appearance of direct intervention.

I'd say that handing out large amounts of money to the banks is collateral damage rather than purpose. Still for me it is a very big disadvantage of this construction.

I don't trust banks, especially not in matters involving money.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 17:12:06

Quinny wrote:So if the middleman was cut out in the above transaction there would be less food to go around??


There'd be plenty of food. It would just all rot in the field because no one would accept payment in anything useable for the services needed to turn it into frosted flakes.

This absolutely can happen. Its essentially what happened in the great depression Mark I. Plenty of stuff grown; no way to pay to pick it, to haul it, to store it, to ship it, to process it, to package it, to deliver it to a grocer, or pay a clerk to put it in a bag. That was what happened when money was "real", and no one wanted to spend any of it because of fear. (this was a deflation event, not hyperinflation, but the problem is the same)

If you cut the middle man out, then everyone is forced to acknowledge that the "money" is really only worth about what a post it note is worth. Perhaps a bit less cause its harder to write on. The middle man is there to turn a randomly printed, pretty piece of paper, into something that has value, expressed basically by its interest rate. No one expects it to be paid off. They do expect it to have value though. Direct printing is a direct ticket to hyperinflation; and with us all using digital blips and bits, we don't even need a wheelbarrow to use our $500 trillion weekly paycheck to buy our flour and coffee. Debit card don't care. The terminals might have a modest software problem at the rollover spots for some internal variables if some are based on int32's or single precision float; but nothing particularly tragic. There really is no upper limit to how quickly, and how badly the value of the currency might go splat. People like to pretend there is.... SURELY a piece of bread can't be worth $100 trillion US, no? Yet, there's not a reason in the world that could stop that if direct "printing" of digital dollars was laid bare.

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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby Quinny » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 17:34:06

Then setup a 'bank' that will buy the bonds at 1% above the gift and make sure it pays taxes on the profit.

Sorry but the obfuscation argument doesn;t hold water for me. It simply graft for TBTB.

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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby radon » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 17:41:24

Quinny wrote:
Why didn't the ECB simply loan at low interest rates directly to the Greek/Italian etc government?


This is probably formally unlawful.

In addition to all the valid reasons discussed above, the ECB probably does not have the capacity/staff to deal with the sovereigns - this is not their core business - so they outsource it to the banks.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby Quinny » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 17:57:03

It's ridiculous - although Greece had a current account deficit it was still as 'solvent' as most other nations. Japan and others would be in just as much trouble if the bond cowboys went for them.

I accept the need for moving from the insane deficits the whole damn world is running on, but the 'deficits' on social programs are minimal when compared to those run up to rescue the financial services sector who then turn round using public money to shaft the governements who lend money cheap to allow them to do it.

The only 'reasons' given above are that the scam needs to be perpetuated. FFS Cuba got through alone when the STHTF. The fall from the cliff will only get worse the further we climb so why not get rid of the w sorry bankers sooner rather than later.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 18:13:46

Sorry, but I'm allergic to the diet of the Cuban peasantry.

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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby Quinny » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 18:26:36

I don't think the average greek will be drinking too much guinness over the next few years.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby rangerone314 » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 21:10:42

AgentR11 wrote:Sorry, but I'm allergic to the diet of the Cuban peasantry.

To great a T-Bone and Guinness deficiency.

Curious the need to maintain a pointless embargo.

Also curious how long the US holds grudges against Cuba and then thinks the Iranians shouldn't hold grudges against the US for 1953 Operation Ajax.

We have a Cuban cigar deficiency but life goes on.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby americandream » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 22:22:16

Quinny wrote:Could someone please explain to me why the ECB recently lent money to the banks at virtually no interest so they could then use it to buy bonds to support PIIGS debt? These bonds mean that countries are paying high interest rates that screw up their cances of recovery.
:(


Hello Quinny,

Here goes.

The current increasingly indebted state of global capitalism, exemplified by the dilemma faced by supposedly social democratic Europe harkens back to the early days of the Thatcher/Reagan initiatives, largely aimed at neutralising communism as they were by a combination of war and economy.

Economic initiatives included such things as deregulation (which helped gestate the crisis), the inculcating of the culture of yuppie greed (which was the motive force) and of course the inclusion of workers, black and white (who are its unwitting victims), in an engagement with private ownership, almost always via housing. A docile miner is one with a huge mortgage.

Policies were implemented by subsequent administrations globally aimed at extending housing credit to the working class at near null rates. In the process, a housing bubble was blown, a bubble of such mammoth magnitude that it not only overwhelmed and removed the need for mercantilist sourced GDP in much of the English speaking world (setting the stage for China's rise as the capitalists' favourite destination for manufacturing capital), it also gave birth to its secondary market in traded derivatives. These were drafted by the millions, often in haste and invariably with faulty lines of title to the original housing titles, in the process creating capitalism's first truly global fracture point.

They were traded all over the globe including in substantial numbers to the European banks. Of course, when it emerged that these instruments were on shaky foundations, the underlying housing market was headed for an almighty crash affecting GDP sigificantly with a raft of other problems. Governments found themselves hobbled financially, especially the bogus European socialists who are running a ponzi scheme in the continents transition to eventual full blown capitalism.

With the banks and governments on the back foot,...the banks being in need of regular doses of cheap credit to minimise the ongoing losses on their balance sheets, and the governments being dependent on these banks for stop gap financing, the printing presses have been resorted to in a bid to kick the can down the road.

Of course, this combination of as yet unresolved bad assets as well as the synergy between banks and governments, especially in ponzi scheme social democratic Europe (the English speaking world has shielded itself somewhat from this state of affairs with its crude policy of Thatcherite government minimalism) causes a snowballing effect that will have to eventually be resolved by a managed housing crash, the buyback of these derivatives by governments at some cheap price and their write off.

This is the first of increasingly worsening global bubbles as capitalism cannot avoid its internal and contradictory meld of greed and growth.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby Revi » Fri 20 Jan 2012, 01:45:30

Basically what everyone is saying is that this is a way to keep the scam going. I just listened to a really good podcast from the Automatic Earth about rehypothecation. Basically what she says is that the whole big ponzi scheme is about to come crashing down and the thing to do is to get out with some cash if you can soon. The center is going to try to grab as much as they can from us little people so we need to try to find a place where they can't steal what we work for.

Listen to it and tell me what you think. It's the first half of the podcast:

http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby americandream » Fri 20 Jan 2012, 07:12:27

Revi wrote:Basically what everyone is saying is that this is a way to keep the scam going. I just listened to a really good podcast from the Automatic Earth about rehypothecation. Basically what she says is that the whole big ponzi scheme is about to come crashing down and the thing to do is to get out with some cash if you can soon. The center is going to try to grab as much as they can from us little people so we need to try to find a place where they can't steal what we work for.

Listen to it and tell me what you think. It's the first half of the podcast:

http://theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/


Capitalism has only just started on its international journey and will outlive all but the newlyborns. This crisis is in essence a hangover from the Cold War, an expensive sop to the working class in the form of cheap homeownership at a time when as many as could be trapped in the fiction of ownership were trapped. With the Soviets gone, the trap that is being set os that of cheap credit financed goods from Asia. The same net is also being cast for the Asian working class and what will emerge from this crisis of European "social democracy will be an even more austere Europe. There is a whole army of working and middle class aspirants who are willing to keep the system afloat, by any means. Not that they can be blamed given the illusion of depth offered by a system that stretches from one hemisphere to the next.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby radon » Fri 20 Jan 2012, 08:20:12

The ECB lending directly to Greece/Italy can immediately be renamed into the Soviet European Union Ministry of Finance. And the situation will be similar to the late Soviet Union - bankrupt southern rim and the donor northern core, unwilling to go on financing the south.
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Re: Why the gift to the bankers?

Unread postby Pops » Fri 20 Jan 2012, 11:57:08

I don't know if this goes here but it's a great piece:

http://crisisofcredit.com/

And a good article here:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/ ... MC20111221
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