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Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

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Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 21:47:45

Looks like the universal healthcare law is going to be declared unconstitutional, the whole thing will be struck down.

Also in the news..

While on the Jay Leno show, Mitt Romney said something like "as long as someone has continuously kept insurance they should be able to get another policy;" what he's talking about there is stopping the pre-existing conditions deinials.

But Leno pressed him, what about those who aren't previously insured? (repeating his original question, what do we do about the uninsured which Romney had evaded)

Romney's answer:

"Well, if they’re 45 years old, and they show up and they say, 'I want insurance because I’ve got a heart disease, it’s like, 'Hey guys, we can’t play the game like that,'" he told Leno. "You've got to get insurance when you’re well, and if you get ill, then you’re going to be covered."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/mitt-romney-health-care_n_1384991.html


Ok this is just nuts, Romney is using the same argument he used back when he was for the individual mandate -- that folks have to be forced to keep insurance because otherwise it's irresponsible to just show up when you're sick.

Problem here is Romney is against the mandate now, and it's going to be declared unconstitutional anyway. I don't know what the deal is with Mitt Romney, he's using the same old arguments but his entire position has changed so now what he's saying is folks with heart disease but no previous policy will just have to die, too bad so sad.

He did mention "medicaid for the poor" but he made it sound like anyone who is otherwise uninsured is just a bum. This guy is so out of touch! I know people who work for dentists, doctors -- these employers are NOTORIOUS for not offering insurance. It's not the employees' fault they have no insurance! Most small businesses, at least in my state, don't offer insurance benefits. And "independent contractors," many of which are actually employees like temp work etc., of course they have no benefits.

The essential problem is we have millions of workers without insurance who make too much for Medicaid but not enough to buy insurance on their own without a contribution from an employer. Mitt Romney apparently isn't aware these people exist, folks stuck between the not poor enough for medicaid / too poor to afford a private policy trap.

Republicans have no answer to this, other than "Hey guys, we can’t play the game like that" -- as if a nurse working for a physician is a bum, as if a waitress working in a diner is a bum, as if roofers and gardeners and construction guys are all bums for not having insurance. Not their fault! Their employer doesn't offer it! These folks are poor but not poor enough for Medicaid, what are they supposed to do???? And what about their kids, does Romney care? Nope. Bad situation in this country we can't even get insurance for the children.

Anyhow what do you guys think -- are Republicans right, "let them die?"
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby Fishman » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 21:57:02

Sorry Six, not accurate. Federal community health groups across the country offer sliding scale health care. Emergency health care is federally mandated. Kids already have extensive healthcare with the CHIPS program. Not saying the present system is great, its a system of all care for some. The alternative is SOME care for all.
In England or Canada
folks with heart disease wait and wait for their surgery, will just have to die, too bad so sad.
Their breast and colon cancer death rates are much higher than ours. Try a little facts for a change Six. There is no perfect system, just alternatives
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 22:13:25

The system as it is now won't wait for you to get sick. It insists on you sending them all your money now. Some people might choose to not pay in advance and take the chance that their lifestyle might keep them from ever going to the hospital. If they get sick why should they have to pay more then the total of the insurance premiums they would have paid if they signed up on day one? looking at it another way, can a health nut that runs five miles a day pass the benefit he has earned on to his heirs or must he send it in to the medical insurance complex just like the over weight smoker living next door to him?
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby WildRose » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 22:52:03

I'm not sure exactly how your system works in the states, but I recall watching a documentary about it. Isn't it correct that sometimes people pay into an insurance program for years and years, only to be told, when they finally have to make a claim, that they aren't covered for "disease x" with their policy? What happens if you have an accident and are laid up from work for months, or you need treatment for cancer and can't work for months? In Canada, we do have to wait for procedures; for example, you could wait months for an MRI while an aggressive tumor grows in your abdomen. But, if you're hurt in a car accident or a work accident and have to go to Emergency and then be admitted to a hospital, at least you will be treated for your injuries promptly and at no cost, other than money you lose from not working. I don't know if it's correct that we have higher death rates from colon or breast cancer than you have in the states; one would have to do an all-encompassing study to determine that, because if a lot of your citizens don't have any insurance and can't get prompt treatment, then you'd think that segment of the population would drag down the cancer survival rates. And you know, we've had such a lot of conflict here about que jumping - preferred treatment for the wealthy and the well-connected. I don't know how much it goes on, but I don't doubt that it happens.
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 23:02:05

Fishman wrote:Sorry Six, not accurate. Federal community health groups across the country offer sliding scale health care.


I've never heard of, or seen, a "federal community health group." :?: In my county there's a health department. It has one doctor, and the place is full of hispanic migrant workers. I don't think it's meant to be used like a GP you can see regularly. The reality is, working folks without insurance don't go to the doctor at all and so chronic and preventable conditions just get worse. High blood pressure doens't get treated. Breast exams don't get done. Diabetes isn't diagnosed, and gets worse. Etc., etc. Then one day they're in the ER and it's a million dollar bill, when preventive regular healthcare could have saved all that money.

Emergency health care is federally mandated.


I've always wondered what that means. Does that mean pain medicine to shut you up, but no treatment for your cancer? I think that law requires stabilization *only* not real treatment. Luckily most hospitals will treat you anyway and then the patient just gets a bill they can't ever afford to pay.

Kids already have extensive healthcare with the CHIPS program.


Ah I forgot about that.. I knew my state had one I forgot it was federal money. Well good then, wow that's progress we have insurance for kids now.

folks with heart disease wait and wait for their surgery, will just have to die, too bad so sad.


You have a point about waiting lists for some procedures in the UK. Oddly enough, it's simple and cheap routine care that we aren't getting to our entire population.

There is no perfect system, just alternatives


True, but healthcare costs are *insane* in the US. Even with insurance, a serious accident or illness means bankruptcy. What kind of economic system is that? Get sick, you got to declare bankruptcy? The system is broken, Fishman. Our healthcare cost percentage of GDP is higher than any other industrialized nation and yet we still have people going without routine care.
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 23:03:24

Answer to question: No! Fu*k 'em!

(Just trying to see things from the Republican perspective)
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby Satori » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 23:06:27

currently the median wage in the US is only $26,000

how in the hell does anyone afford health insurance on that pittance ??

my health insurance is your garden variety BlueCross/BlueShield
and it is app $9,000 a year
thankfully almost all this is paid by my employer

the health care system in this country is collapsing under its own weight
it is some of the most expensive in the world
and despite the ENORMOUS amount we spend
we still have tens of millions with no health insurance and inadequate care

here's what to expect
http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... e-spending
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby Satori » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 23:10:08

and lets not forget this inconvenient little fact about healthcare in the US

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/heal ... =PM:HEALTH

now up to 60% and growing

virtually EVERYONE in the middle class is one illness/accident away
from losing everything they have ever worked for
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 23:15:03

Satori wrote:and lets not forget this inconvenient little fact about healthcare in the US

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/heal ... =PM:HEALTH

now up to 60% and growing

virtually EVERYONE in the middle class is one illness/accident away
from losing everything they have ever worked for

If everyone who had that happen to them, went out in a blaze of glory "going postal" and taking out with them as many people who were luckier than them, I bet a lot of those problems would find solutions. Not to worry though, most Americans are trained sheep and engineered products of public education and mass media who won't fight back even when they have nothing left to lose.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 23:39:32

WildRose wrote:In Canada, we do have to wait for procedures; for example, you could wait months for an MRI while an aggressive tumor grows in your abdomen.


Ok well that's scary. 8O I only needed an MRI once, car wreck and back injury, I had an appointment within a week. Lobby was empty. In my county we've got two or three MRI places plus all three hospitals have one.

Every hospital should have an MRI.. why would anyone with a tumor have to wait "months?"

But, if you're hurt in a car accident or a work accident and have to go to Emergency and then be admitted to a hospital, at least you will be treated for your injuries promptly and at no cost, other than money you lose from not working.


Same here, except if you have no insurance and you're not retired with medicare and you're not poor enough to have medicaid, then you'll get a large bill in the mail.

Anyhow.. "months-long wait for an MRI" isn't acceptable. That takes all the wind out of my sails arguing for single payer. :| I really don't understand an MRI wait -- that probably has more to do with the inherent inefficiency of central planning than the actual cost of a MRI machine.

BTW we sort of do have single payer in the US, in that a lot of sick folks happen to be old and so they do have Medicare.

Here's my solution.. I would say.. pass a law REQURING employers to provide health care. This is what Nixon wanted to do, but I would add a caveat that a company's health plan must be the same for all employees from the CEO on down to the janitor -- this will ensure corps offer good policies since executives and management won't ever give up their good healthcare.

For small business, have them co-op into group exchanges so they can get the good rates that big corps do.

Then open Medicare up for the self-employed to buy into. Or you could lump self-employed into the national exchange pool with small business, or vice versa open Medicare up to small business to buy into. This would be the best solution, we just have to REQUIRE employers to provide coverage and then the free market would force healthcare costs down to what employers can afford to pay.

With everyone now covered, *outlaw* medical bills above a very reasonable copay (dollar amount not percentage). This is the ideal free market solution, it would stop these rising healthcare costs and begin to force them down as employers and the exchanges shop for the best rates.

But of course health insurers are the biggest opponent to this very sensible idea, co-ops and a national insurance policy exchange.

Difference between my idea and Obamacare is that I would just have a flat out rquirement, no fine option and no waivers, employers MUST provide coverage no ifs ands or buts. It would just be the law, they gotta do it. Unlike Romney-Obamacare, Sixstringscare would force executives to share the same policy with their employees and therefore solve the "crap policy" problem. Issue with Obamacare was going to be that employers were ready to drop everyone off onto the government plan. Under Sixstringscare, individual policies would be outlawed -- either you have insurance through your employer or you buy a plan from the national exchange co-op.

Only problem with my idea is small business still can't afford to cover their employees, since currently that's like $10k - $15k per employee. You may have to move this group, along with lower income self-employed, into an affordable Medicare buy-in. What you don't want though are subsidies to the national exchange plans, because the healthcare costs would just rise in response to gov subsidy. I think this would work, all employers required to provide coverage then you have Medicare then Medicaid for the poorest.

(oh I give up.. my idea requires mandates.. and that's going to be declared unconstitutional)
Last edited by Sixstrings on Thu 29 Mar 2012, 00:07:46, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 28 Mar 2012, 23:54:11

No problem, Six, politics in this country is about adherence to political doctrine (lib or con) no matter how ineffective in a particular situation (ie using a hammer on screws).

Its not about solving problems, its about getting re-elected by the dumb-ed down fools who only understand buzzwords and ideology.

Our political system is a victim of political entrophy---the eventual and inevitable degradation of a system into corruption and dysfunction.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby WildRose » Thu 29 Mar 2012, 00:24:07

Sixstrings, we have MRI equipment in all of our hospitals and quite a few of the private imaging clinics that are popping up now. The reason we have to wait so long for an MRI scan is because generally, a person will see their family doctor for a problem first and will then be referred to a specialist, and that's what can take a really long time, getting in to see the specialist, who will then refer you for an MRI if it's deemed warranted. If you go to an emergency ward because of an accident, though, you will have access to all of the diagnostic imaging quite promptly because your situation would be deemed an emergency. One thing that will usually raise eyebrows in an emergency department is a history of weight loss - if you have abdominal pain and tell them you've lost 30 lbs. unintentionally in the last couple months, you'll get a CAT scan or MRI pretty fast. There's a certain amount of "squeaky wheel gets the grease" that goes on, especially if you're advocating for a loved one in the health care system.
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 29 Mar 2012, 00:27:12

You want a real medical system?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(Australia)
What is happening in the USA is sick. I was born there and this is one of the main reasons my US passport hasn't been renewed in 10 years.
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby Fishman » Thu 29 Mar 2012, 11:24:35

Six, for your information.
http://findahealthcenter.hrsa.gov/Search_HCC.aspx
Sea, you may have a solution there.
We have a simple solution already at hand, but the tort lawyers prevent such. Simply roll out Medicaid as those universal health care systems you propose, Six. Put your money where your mouth resides.
To be enrolled in the modified Medicaid you accept essentially no access to litigation (British system), no dialysis after age 65 (New Zealand), mammograms ONLY q 2 -3 years, only after age 50 and stopping at age 75 (British system), guiac cards ONLY for colon cancer screening (Canada), dramatically less access to high tech, subspecialists and meds ( all universal systems compared to US), minimal treatment of advanced cancers (British system). Why shucks, everyone gets covered, with SOME care.

Its pretty basic Six, three components of healthcare, access, cost, quality/technology. If you want everyone covered, you pay more or you lower quality/technology. If you're broke as a country (as we are) and you want everyone covered, expect to DRAMATICALLY lower qualty/technology. Sorry, still no unicorns out there as the president promised.
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby Lore » Thu 29 Mar 2012, 12:07:27

All the countries you mentioned also have a better level of health care, according to the last study by WHO, then here in the US. The problem is we spend more in the US, but get less for it.

No wonder fewer and fewer people from industrialized societies are looking to come to the United States.
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby Satori » Thu 29 Mar 2012, 12:46:11

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/201 ... p-20k.html

hmmm

median income $26,000

medical costs for family of 4 $20,000

let me do the math
thinking
thinking
thinking...

OH CRAP
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby Fishman » Thu 29 Mar 2012, 14:14:15

Gas, I'm so glad your wait was short. In the medical literature you are called an N of 1. Your NHS is noted for its long waits, N of thousands. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/ ... ime-target. Gas, I'm not knocking your healthcare system. I think its marvelous, I even wish we had that system here, but I am cognisant of its limitations, and document them. Now read a litle about medical litigation in the US vs England
Lore, you data is partially correct, in the US our outcome for some things are worse, agreed, but not for others, breast cancer and colon cancer outcomes are much better in the US. Did you read my post? The only thing preventing some form of universal healthcare in the US is tort lawyers. Republicans were even willing to compromise on the crap sandwich of a bill if significant tort reform had taken place. Now the bill goes down in flames, duh.
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Re: Do people who don't have insurance deserve medical care?

Unread postby ian807 » Thu 29 Mar 2012, 18:36:28

Explain to me again what "deserve" means? Maybe then I can can answer.
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