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What is the limiting factor?

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What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby Pops » Thu 10 May 2012, 10:19:12

h/t Counter Currents:
Economists used to believe that capital was the limiting factor. Therefore they implicitly must have believed in complementarity between capital and natural resources back in the empty-world economy. But when resources became limiting in the new full-world economy, rather than recognizing the shift in the pattern of scarcity and the new limiting factor, they abandoned the whole idea of limiting factor by emphasizing substitutability to the exclusion of complementarity. The new reason for emphasizing capital over natural resources is the claim that capital is a near perfect substitute for resources.

Herman Daly
http://steadystate.org/what-is-the-limiting-factor/

Really insightful piece not only about economics and capitalism and growth but about humans and our desire to have mastery over nature. He also points out the current world debt load is merely a lien on future natural resources and labor but since resources are becoming constrained (the limit is fish not fishing boats) the debit will never be repaid.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby seenmostofit » Thu 10 May 2012, 10:59:37

Good article.

"The elite-owned media, the corporate-funded think tanks, the kept economists of high academia, and the World Bank — not to mention Gold Sacks and Wall Street — all sing hymns to growth in perfect unison, and bamboozle average citizens.

What is going to happen?"

Too bad he didn't take a crack at his own question. Certainly he could have at least thrown out a few scenarios for us to debate, but maybe that would have veered to from the eggheaded-economic tone of the article. Or maybe it was just one of those read between the lines things.

Stop borrowing so much you fools! Or Else! (without mentioning his Or Else)

Seems reasonable to borrow less, use less, and watch while it all shakes out.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby seahorse3 » Thu 10 May 2012, 11:47:28

Enjoyed it.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby AdTheNad » Thu 10 May 2012, 12:26:42

Why then do we keep growth as the top national priority? First, we are misled because our measure of growth, GDP, counts all “economic activity” thereby conflating costs and benefits, rather than comparing them at the margin.

That is a good article. It's nice to see some of the things we harp on mentioned elsewhere. Then I checked where the article was - steadystate.org, so I guess not mainstream yet.

When we try and maximise GDP with no thoughts to natural capital, we are running our planet like a shop owner trying to sell everything in the shop as quickly as possible. Sure you could sell that TV for $100, lower the price to $1 and I'm sure you would sell all of them as quick as people could get in the shop, but that's no way to run a business, and no way to treat the planet.

How can you have rational policies when one time only natural assets are sitting on a world wide balance sheet at the mere cost of (subsidised!) extraction?
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 10 May 2012, 12:27:53

seenmostofit wrote:Stop borrowing so much you fools! Or Else! (without mentioning his Or Else)
Seems reasonable to borrow less, use less, and watch while it all shakes out.


I'll post a counter point to think about.

Borrow more, much more, to buy and use less. This maintains the economy on the inflationary side, keeps growth nominally positive, while those making the decisions remain cognizant that their total produced widget count/per capita is gradually decreasing. But people say, "You'll have to pay it back..and ohhhh the terrible interest!!!" This would be a problem if 2010 $ had to be used to repay 2010 $denominated debt; but that is simply not the case, debt issued in 2010 $'s will be paid in 2020 $'s; of which there is an infinite quantity available for the purpose.

The only people who get hosed, are people who think it is appropriate to save long term money in cash accounts.

Now this *is* a delicate dance, I'll admit; to much "printing" and inflation will start to run unacceptably high; to little, and resource constraints take over driving not only real contraction, but nominal contraction as well. And nominal contraction will destroy the economic system we have in place. Meaning, we starve and die. (I am averse to this outcome, btw)

So far, as much as I dislike the current administration, they have done a remarkable job managing a contracting economy while still keeping my flow of t-bones un-impinged.

Thus, the answer to the question, is that there are no limiting factors on nominal growth. Resource constraints provide limits on real growth and produced widget count/per capita; but underneath it all as long as (food Cal grown in the US) > (food Cal eaten in the US), this game can and will continue.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby Lore » Thu 10 May 2012, 12:32:18

Very well put, yet some persist in the "drill baby drill" solution. As to the final question, what is going to happen? Inevitability and nothing good, that's for sure.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby seenmostofit » Thu 10 May 2012, 15:25:50

Lore wrote:Very well put, yet some persist in the "drill baby drill" solution. As to the final question, what is going to happen? Inevitability and nothing good, that's for sure.


That was the question he threw in at the end, wasn't it? Without the "nothing good" assumption, but he didn't leave us with much to work with. As far as drill, baby, drill, it worked okay for natural gas, so the advocates of that scheme got a piece of it right anyway. Hasn't appeared to work for oil though.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 10 May 2012, 20:45:40

AgentR11 wrote:
seenmostofit wrote:Stop borrowing so much you fools! Or Else! (without mentioning his Or Else)
Seems reasonable to borrow less, use less, and watch while it all shakes out.


I'll post a counter point to think about.

Borrow more, much more, to buy and use less. This maintains the economy on the inflationary side, keeps growth nominally positive, while those making the decisions remain cognizant that their total produced widget count/per capita is gradually decreasing. But people say, "You'll have to pay it back..and ohhhh the terrible interest!!!" This would be a problem if 2010 $ had to be used to repay 2010 $denominated debt; but that is simply not the case, debt issued in 2010 $'s will be paid in 2020 $'s; of which there is an infinite quantity available for the purpose.

The only people who get hosed, are people who think it is appropriate to save long term money in cash accounts.

Now this *is* a delicate dance, I'll admit; to much "printing" and inflation will start to run unacceptably high; to little, and resource constraints take over driving not only real contraction, but nominal contraction as well. And nominal contraction will destroy the economic system we have in place. Meaning, we starve and die. (I am averse to this outcome, btw)

So far, as much as I dislike the current administration, they have done a remarkable job managing a contracting economy while still keeping my flow of t-bones un-impinged.

Thus, the answer to the question, is that there are no limiting factors on nominal growth. Resource constraints provide limits on real growth and produced widget count/per capita; but underneath it all as long as (food Cal grown in the US) > (food Cal eaten in the US), this game can and will continue.


This post is the best summary of what has been and is really going on economically I have read since the crash. Anything to avoid/ put off end point for TPTB means kicking the can you so clearly describe ad-infinitum. As long as there is some growth, somewhere on the planet, a bubble can be blown around it to satiate the requirement for a charade of an economic future for long term investors.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby glaucus » Thu 10 May 2012, 23:14:33

AgentR11 wrote:
Borrow more, much more, to buy and use less. This maintains the economy on the inflationary side, keeps growth nominally positive, while those making the decisions remain cognizant that their total produced widget count/per capita is gradually decreasing. But people say, "You'll have to pay it back..and ohhhh the terrible interest!!!" This would be a problem if 2010 $ had to be used to repay 2010 $denominated debt; but that is simply not the case, debt issued in 2010 $'s will be paid in 2020 $'s; of which there is an infinite quantity available for the purpose.

The only people who get hosed, are people who think it is appropriate to save long term money in cash accounts.


Nice post. I bolded the last part because I want to point out that the savers won't get hosed in the wake of an inevitable economic crash event (which bubble economies are famous for) at least in the short term, anyway. But yes, over the long term if TPTB can keep the economy together with duct tape, gum and crazy glue the savers are gonna get killed.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby radon » Fri 11 May 2012, 06:33:49

AgentR11 wrote:Now this *is* a delicate dance, I'll admit; to much "printing" and inflation will start to run unacceptably high; to little, and resource constraints take over driving not only real contraction, but nominal contraction as well. And nominal contraction will destroy the economic system we have in place. Meaning, we starve and die. (I am averse to this outcome, btw)


This is like managed nuclear fission - pull the rodes too far, and the self-enforcing chain reaction arises (hyperinflation), push them too deep, and the reaction subsides and vanishes.

A criticism directed at fiat money is that their volume is pre-destined to rise exponentially. The resources cannot feed the exponential growth because they are limited, therefore a fiat money system is doomed to crash. But unlike the resource supply, the fiat money supply is always under the human control, and the fiat money can always be played with tricks such as devaluations, revaluations, denominations etc. - something totally impossible with resources or commodities. This flexibility is the beauty of the fiat money. In fact, the money supply growth has never been truly exponential indefinitely, first it grows slowly, then fast, then slowly again, then it plateaus, then may go very fast, then crash follows. Usual cycle of boom and bust, lots of examples in history, Wiemar, Latin America, Russia, Zimbabwe.

Post-hyperinflation denominations are usually followed by quick economic growth - Zulus used to be mocked at about the number of zeros on their banknotes and now they are rumored to be one of the fastest growing world's economies. So the exponential boom and bust nature of the fiat money does not seem to be a kind of fundamental flaw - unlike the resource supply, money supply is manageable in any imaginable way. How you can deal with the boom and bust and at the same time preserve the world reserve status of your currency is a totally different story, but being a reserve currency issuer is not a pre-requisite for the general well-being of a nation.

The advocates of the golden standard often point out that the fiat money don't have intrinsic value. One way to look at fiat money is to consider them not as a storage of wealth or economic value, but rather as a tripartite legal contract involving the buyer, the seller, and the state. The buyer's and the seller's roles are self-explanatory, while the state is there to ensure that the buyer and the seller abide by the rules that a banknote (legal contract) carries with it. These rules are designed to fit and feed the current snapshot of the social structure of the society - whether middle class dominant, or 1% or oligarchy or whatever. In this case an intrinsic value of the money would actually be a disadvantage as it distorts its actual contractual value. As long as this intrinsic value is negligibly low, it can be ignored. Otherwise it has to be acted upon. Canada recently stopped producing small coins, and Russia did the same shortly before as their cost exceeded their denomination value. Money expressed as computer bits and bytes appear to be ideal as they have no intrinsic value at all.

Another criticism directed at fiat money is that the amount of the debt in the system is always greater than the amount of the money there. But thinking in the terms of money as contractual obligations and means of the societal structure preservation, this is actually a must-have attribute rather than a disadvantage. The underlying assumption is that the people are motivated by greed (surplus accumulation bias) and fear (deficit aversion). Where the amount of money is equal or greater than the amount of debt, there will always be political pressure to redistribute the money in such way that no debt goes uncovered. But then the people will not fear lack of money, will lose the fear motivation and will stop working - another angle of hyperinflation, abundance of money in the absence of products.

In order for the fear to be effective motivator, the system needs to ensure a continuous outflow of lazy or unlucky dropouts at the fringes - hopefully caught by the social safety net and brought back to normal after a while, - but keeping the rest in the fear of losing their status. The interest rate driven fiat system ensures this via the inevitability of the excess of debt over money regardless of the political interests involved. The critics say that it has to lead to exponential growth in money supply - no, it doesn't: let the people go bankrupt and cancel the debt. Even if it does go exponential, do a denomination at some point and you are again at the starting point - something that is impossible with the commodity-based money like golden.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Fri 11 May 2012, 19:00:28

AgentR11 wrote:Resource constraints provide limits on real growth and produced widget count/per capita; but underneath it all as long as (food Cal grown in the US) > (food Cal eaten in the US), this game can and will continue.

for a while but the tough times will come when
(food Cal grown in the UK) < (food Cal eaten in the UK)
(food Cal grown in the Japan) < (food Cal eaten in the Japan)
(food Cal grown in the ME) < (food Cal eaten in the ME)
(food Cal grown in Asia ) < (food Cal eaten in the Asia)
(food Cal grown in Africa) < (food Cal eaten in Africa)
(food Cal grown in Europe) < (food Cal eaten in Europe)
because of peak phosphate and oil and water and they cant pay for the imports and they get hungry, angry and desperate.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 11 May 2012, 19:57:23

Shaved Monkey wrote:because of peak phosphate and oil and water and they cant pay for the imports and they get hungry, angry and desperate.


I'm not really convinced that phosphate, oil, and water become limiters on calorie crop production. It takes a puny amount of oil to grow and deliver within the US, way less than we produce internally. Especially when you take the in-extremis eventuality where most can't afford to drive that final mile between house and grocer. If they walk and/or bike to the grocer, we're good for the foreseeable future. Phosphate's a new "concern" on the radar of doom, not quite willing to buy-in yet that the challenge is truly existential.

So I think it will remain, at least for the US, a cost/family budget issue as opposed to a hunger issue.

Other parts of the world aren't nearly so lucky in their circumstances, but 'thems the breaks.

But, I'll give you a metric to follow on the food calorie issue... As long as American's are willing to spend nearly ten times the retail cost of ingredients for a loaf of bread, you know they're still in OK shape. When the average householder decides to make bread at home as a result of economic pressures, then you know, TSHTF.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 11 May 2012, 20:57:29

http://www.ifdc.org/Media_Info/Press_Re ... s_Resource

As long as nobody has a problem with Morocco being the monopoly supplier, we have a few hundred years worth of phosphate.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby Lore » Fri 11 May 2012, 21:08:26

I'd actually be more concerned, at least in the short term, about 'colony collapse disorder', which has the possibility of reducing our total food crop output by a third.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 12 May 2012, 16:23:56

Lore wrote:I'd actually be more concerned, at least in the short term, about 'colony collapse disorder', which has the possibility of reducing our total food crop output by a third.

That's pretty old news Lore. The local bee keepers seem to be pretty well past it. Meanwhile electric fences around the hives to keep the black bears out has become mandatory.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 13 May 2012, 02:40:57

Dont think its sorted out yet.
they have found a few possible causes from mites,viruses to pesticides to electromagnetism.
In 2010, the USDA reported that data on overall honey bee losses for the year indicate an estimated 34% loss, which is statistically similar to losses reported in 2007, 2008, and 2009.In 2011 the loss was 30%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder
Australia is still free of it and the mite but its only a matter of time one jumps from Asia to Australia via a container ship.
Plenty of hand pollinating of orchards in China might be a way of finding starving poor people something to do in the future.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 13 May 2012, 04:02:21

Borrowing, spending, and using less is not the solution to problems affecting a global capitalist economy but the result of those problems.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 13 May 2012, 15:13:12

ralfy wrote:Borrowing, spending, and using less is not the solution to problems affecting a global capitalist economy but the result of those problems.


Not much in the way of argument to support your assertion; but as far as I can tell, the only "problem" involved is that it offends your sense of ethics. I think this is wrong placed, since the purpose of an economy is to permit almost everyone to get enough to eat and avoid freezing to death, while rewarding those who work harder or invest most with trinkets and acclaim. Now, I'll grant that the tiny upper, upper slice has perhaps gotten a tad carried away with the game, but, its hard to avoid the fact that pretty much no one is short on calories, and there aren't hundreds of thousands freezing to death in New England every winter. So it does sorta work.

As long as it keeps working, it will not be interrupted by any blogger's offended sense of morality, and I suspect it will keep working for a VERY long time. At least till the point that climate change kills our ability to grow adequate calorie crops.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 13 May 2012, 19:12:21

AgentR11 wrote:As long as it keeps working, it will not be interrupted by any blogger's offended sense of morality, and I suspect it will keep working for a VERY long time. At least till the point that climate change kills our ability to grow adequate calorie crops.

Growing calorie crops is one thing, processing them and distributing them is another.
The slaves ate all the stuff (offal and cheaper cuts feet, tails and snouts)the plantation owners didnt want and the trend continues with hamburgers and hot dogs.
Cheap high fat, calorie dense slave fuel.
It allows a system of low wages and low food prices to continue.
The American dream provides the motivation to work hard for the extremely slim chance of catching the carrot on the end of the stick.
but
Thwarted expectations will be the game changer,you dont have to be starving for that,just knowing you will never catch the carrot will be enough and that will kick in well before climate change has any noticeable effect on cheap food.
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Re: What is the limiting factor?

Unread postby Loki » Sun 13 May 2012, 19:41:40

Shaved Monkey wrote:Cheap high fat, calorie dense slave fuel.

Ha, ha, slave fuel, good one. Spot on, too.

Agent, your party is already talking about gutting the food stamps program, Meals on Wheels, and low-income school lunches in order to keep the gluttonous war industry nice and fat. I think you underestimate the petty meanness and sociopathic Social Darwinism of your party. Paul Ryan is just the tip of the iceberg. Our own Cog is a prime example of conservative sociopathy---he salivates at the thought of the "mooch" class dying off.

While I tend to agree that "food" (I use that term loosely) availability isn't currently a major problem in the US, conservative attempts to gut the safety net may very well initiate the social disruption Shaved is talking about. Food riots are rather common in other parts of the world.
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