[misterno]

I found a company where they give you a simple math test just to see your math ability. This test is so simple that a high school graduate can score 100% with no sweat.

If you pass the exam they put you in a 7 weeks training program where they teach you PHDwin and Aries and advanced excel.

Couple of my friends finished this training, all they have to do is, work for this company for 200 hours for $35/hr. Per the signed contract, you are not supposed to work for any other company within the next 6 months but only for them.

What they do is, they send you to oil companies as a contractor for a while and if you are good, then you might be hired for full time. Company officials even mentioned about international assignments where you become an expat and can double/triple your salary.

So I did not believe these stories, afterall I know how high the unemployment rate is and it just sounded bogus to me. Seeing my suspicion growing and ridiculing this training program, this friend of mine introduced me to an investor from Dallas who happened to hire these technicians in the past.

Here is the conversation I had;

Me: Why are you guys paying so much money for someone with only 7 weeks training and no degree?????

Investor: $35/hr is for starters,I remember paying $300/hr for experienced technicians.

Me: what? This is absurd.

Him: It is not absurd. I am relying on these people who are responsible of calculating and measuring with extreme accuracy if I can make money on certain oil fields. $300/hr is nothing compare to how much I can make from those oil fields.

Me: Yeah but, there are so many unemployed people and yet these training companies are not looted, something does not make sense.

Him: Well, I don't think someone with good math skills will ever get unemployed in this country.

Me: I will not be able to sleep ever. Thanks...

----------------------------------

so then I called a geotechnician recruiter and she claims she knows experienced people with no degree in the industry making over $160K full time.

Can someone knowledgeable about the matter, shed some light on this before I lose my mnd?

[rockdoc123]

you need to be specific what the "geotechnician" role does.
The pay sounds high to me but I would need to know what the job is.

[misterno]

I have been told by the people attending the training that they are taught to value the economics of the oil/gas fields by using PHDwin and Aries. Oh advanced excel too

It sounded like you need to be very good at math.

I think these people are also called engineer analysts as well as technicians.

So, any ideas?

[Outcast_Searcher]

I found a company where they give you a simple math test just to see your math ability. This test is so simple that a high school graduate can score 100% with no sweat.

You do realize that MANY high school graduates, working as clerks can't make change if the cash register goes down? That most don't even seem to understand that subtraction is the required OPERATION to make change? That for many cash registers they use pictures of the merchandise so the workers don't have to deal with numbers?

So, I suspect you're underestimating the requirements for the job. Sounds like you're talking about significant travel, which is a big headache, and meaningful math and computer skills. Also sounds like the company is (wisely, IMO) relying on a probation program, so they can fire the folks (most?) who flunk out of the training or the probationary period.

So, I'd guess there's more to it than the "easy money" it seems on the surface. Or, this outfit is grossly incompetent (i.e. inefficient), and likely to be out-competed by some more efficient rival in time.

[smiley]

You do realize that MANY high school graduates, working as clerks can't make change if the cash register goes down?

Very true, there is an excellent book about it
Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences

For my company it is becoming a big headache at the moment. It is near impossible to find the people with the right qualifications (engineering/mathmatics/physics). There are far to few people who choose a technical education and those with mathematical skill are currenty lured away by the banks, consultancy firms etc. In engineering we simply cannot compete with the salaries and freebies they are able to offer.

As a result we are also doing a pilot with taking prospects without a proper education but with a good mindset and basic skills and educating them ourselves on the job. So far I would say the results are mixed, fall out rates are high and it takes a long time to get someone on a level where you can trust them with the work and where they actually become productive..

Investor: $35/hr is for starters,I remember paying $300/hr for experienced technicians.

Current rates for engineers here are roughly $100-150/hr (junior) $200-250/hr (senior) (that is not the salary that they receive but the compensation payed to their agency). Real gross salary would be about $60k to $160k annually. So the $35 looks plausible to me but the $300 too high. But if the job requires a lot of travelled work and unregular hours then compensation can be a lot higher.

Me: what? This is absurd.

The way I see it, it still costs less money to hire a good engineer/analyst/technician than a bad lawyer. And personally I think an engineer makes a company a lot more money than a lawyer. So on that scale the rates are justifiable I think.

[SeaGypsy]

I know heaps of guys earning $140k plus with no degree, mostly in oil and gas. They have 'tickets' galore for the kinds of work they are doing, usually a decade or so in the field.

The friend of mine who makes the most is a 'Marine Crane Driver'; $1k per day; offshore contracting and living in the Philippines he pays no tax. He started off as a forklift driver on the docks 15 years ago, building up from there. For a while he was on over $400 an hour as a 'Deepwater Welder' but started to get some accumulated damage from the compression/ decompression cycles after a few years.

Technicians in oil and gas in the US get paid about 30- 50% less than those doing the same job from Australia or Europe. Seems you have a relative abundance of these people.

Underground mine technicians earn at least $90k in their first year; at least $140k once they are qualified to self inspect their own work. Many mining companies put talented people through apprenticeships along these lines.

Things to remember: Good/ usually 2 weeks on one off, with 6 weeks annual leave.
Bad: 12 hour workdays over 14 hours, usually with 7 days, 7 nights then 7 off.

None of the guys I know in these big bucks jobs would have gone to university for 3 or 4 years, living on a student allowance. They are seriously money driven, working class, with plenty of brains. They have chased the money since they left school and become very solid components in a very big machine. You got to be smart, dedicated, hard working, tolerant, a team player. It's not some cushy job 9-5 in the city; those are the degree jobs.

[misterno]

I am still not clear if what I have been told is true or not

First of all, is there anybody here that deals with economics of oil/gas wells using PHDWin and Aries? Are these engineer analysts working closely with geologists or geophysicists?

I understand that $35/hr is not much but $160K is way too much for an non degree person in an 8% unemployment environment, not the mention perks benefits upside potential posibility of paying almost no tax via being expat, etc

I have looked so many resumes in linkedin with PHDwin and Aries and none of them had degrees and yet all this money?

Something still does not make sense here. What am I missing?

[SeaGypsy]

$35 an hour is peanuts in extractive industries. The computer skills you are yabbering on about are background knowledge, not 'The Job'.

The guys and gals who drive these earn at least $35 an hour:

[Shaved Monkey]

When I worked out in the mines the labourers where on $28 and hour to mainly mow lawns of the mine workers houses.
$35 an hour was the carpenters and painters
Plumbers and electricians where on $38
This wasnt working for a big mining company just contracting to them if it was for a big mining company the money would be atleast 50 % more.

The wives and girlfriends of the tradies got jobs cleaning rooms for the mining companies on $35 an hour and within weeks were in driver training for the big trucks.(its a way of keeping the tradies in town)
To try and get a job driving a truck is virtually impossible unless you know someone same with getting a job in the mines.
When I was living/working out there rent paid for($700 a week) I applied (for big money mining jobs)in person at every mine within a few hours radius and didnt get one reply.
Yet when you talked to the mining companies they complained of ageing work forces but even the locals struggled to get full time jobs,(most worked for me as labourers as an out of towner couldnt affords the rent on a labourers wage)
There's all this talk of big money but there are plenty of people who have spent $thousands on training and got nothing.

[misterno]

Oky I think I need to clarify something

These analysts I am talking about, they have NO DEGREE

Only 7 weks training

All theyhave to do is work in the office, NOT IN THE MINES

Some of them are making $160K

Something(s) are wrong here

Forget the high salary, just getting into oil and as industry in a professional job WITH NO DEGREE is UNHEARD OF.

Comprehende?

Are there anybdy here who is using PHDWin or Aries? Maybe they can help us

Here is what these people do;

ARIES™ DecisionSuite™



Petroleum Risk Analysis Software specifically designed for modeling uncertainty in your individual well decision analyses.

ARIES DecisionSuite™ software is the ARIES™ extension specifically designed for stochastically modeling uncertainty in your individual well decision analyses. Workflows enabled by DecisionSuite software allow users to move beyond the risking, expected value and sensitivity capabilities of ARIES software to include graphical decision-tree analysis and full uncertainty simulation using Crystal Ball.

In the Decision Tree module, you draw the tree containing the alternative outcomes on the screen. You then create economic cases, or enter a value directly, for each terminal node on your tree. ARIES software then runs all the cases, weights each outcome with the appropriate input probability and computes the highest expected value path through the chance and decision nodes of your model.

In the Simulation module, you enter global and case data, designate the uncertain variables and their probability distributions, and select the output metrics. ARIES software automatically samples the input distributions for each input value and constructs and runs the cases using Monte Carlo simulation.

Note: DecisionSuite currently supports Crystal Ball™ Standard Edition or better, versions 7.2 through 7.3.

Routinely used by:
• High-risk capital investment decisions
• Reservoir engineers
• Engineering technicians

Typically used for:
• Booking of U.S. reserves
• Investigating range of outcomes
• Other advanced economic risk analysis

[sparky]

.
First for many companies working out there , an university degree is a handicap
they much prefer people with a blue colar work ethic .
too much education smack of a diletante
( why waste time swanning around campus learning generalized fluff instead of earning hard cash )

a rig cost heap per day to rent or use , time is of the essence ,
people with the right attitude are essential
the hierarchy is simple , you get clear and simple orders and carry them out
often , there is nobody to cry to , deal with it or ship out
the tool pusher is the king .

whatever one need to know is learned directly , any training is done on a need only basis
of course you are being tested on the job to clear the fake ones
but it's a simple modular system of techs , like lego blocks , assembled for a task
hence the ticket system .

what a contractor charge is nominal , sometime work can only be a few hours or days or season

[misterno]

so what you are saying is with a few years of experience but no degree someone with these skills can make $160K in the US?

That means same guy can make much more oversaeas as an expat???

I feel like a newborn child

[Ferretlover]

HHhmmm... The foreseeable future is not looking too good for those waste their time going to college, does it?

[SeaGypsy]

Shaved, that must have been about 5 years ago.

Misterno & Shaved, it's all down to who you know.
Being in the right area is one thing, having the tickets is another, but the biggest factor is having a friend in the mine already. I have seen people try everything to get in and get nowhere. I have also seen people rock up to mining towns with a truck license only, spend a Friday night at the pub, playing pool and drinking beer, start the following Monday.
It's absolute crap that you "Must" have a degree to get into the mines.

Sparky; exactly correct.

[Pretorian]

HHhmmm... The foreseeable future is not looking too good for those waste their time going to college, does it?

As always it depends the a subject of study and the individual; for the majority college is a waste of time and resources. As is high-school and , for so many, even middle-school.

[Keith_McClary]

whatever one need to know is learned directly , any training is done on a need only basis

An offshore rig went down because workers weren't trained on the backup safety system. They were supposed to read the manual if they needed to know.

[sparky]

.
Two example I know off personnaly

A crane driver on a sea platform , he unloaded containers from the deck of the barges
the riggers on the barges would be crushed or loose limbs if the container shifted
a quite common occurrence
this guy could pick up the slack at the time the barge was at the top of a wave and lift it clear
he also could put it down with precision , this constantly in stormy sea with 30 feet waves or more
another killed people twice another crushed the steering deck , ripping it clear off
the containers had some essential and costly gear inside and didn't like being crashed
the barge were tough but a twenty tons swinging container could create very costly damage

This guy was a maestro , he could have put a tray full of glasses on the back of a buckling bull
Some crews waited for him to come on shift and wanted nobody else

another was a welder , he was certified by Bureau Veritas , Loyd shipping and was one of only seven men who were authorized to weld the high pressure steam headers
of Framatome nuclear power plants .

His job was to weld the first pass on the pipeline from the platform to the shore ,
this while the pipeline was being laid continuously off a monstrous floating crane
All the welds were radiographed a 100% job ,
if one failed inspection , the job stopped , the pipeline was dragged up and the weld cut and redone . he never had a failure
each year this near illiterate wog would buy himself a new Mercedes and drive around , unshaven dressed in coverall ,
he would get arrested regularly by the local cops and asked where he had stolen it from .
he would stroll each morning for his twelve hours shift ,with his personal welding clamp
two assistants had prepared the site and were feeding him coffee , sandwiches and new electrodes

he was like a star violinist , I checked with the inspectors they said he was the best , ever !

[SeaGypsy]

Reminds me of "The Duck" who started as underwater welder before going on to floating cranes, both $1k+ per day jobs. Duck would often get called to Norway to replace someone who stuffed up and killed someone. He sometimes said no, because he had just come off a stint, they would offer up to $25k sweetener to get him on the 18 hour first class flight. He left school at year 10.

There are no 'degrees' in this kind of work. Amazes me that Mr No thinks there should be. Of course there is no way to teach such things in a classroom. The theory is a few days or weeks of classroom time. The real learning is done step by step in the field.

To Lore, the workers on the platform were under supervision, the supervisors were under pressure as much as the well head. They blew it. A big lesson for the industry. The workers who survived that day will be haunted by it the rest of their lives. 16 of them died. A very large part of the remuneration for these jobs is in the danger part, to oneself and to others.

[Pretorian]

I also knew a guy who, in his 40s, managed to net $5-6K a month in a third-world country by doing hard manual labor, without any local documents, acquaintances, or even the language. It was about 20 years ago.

[misterno]

I give up

For the third time, I am repeating that this is an OFFICE JOB I am talking about

not hard labour in the mines

NO physical injury is possible in these jobs because you do not get out of the office yet they are making six figures

Are there any geophysicist around here? Or maybe reservoir engineers? Maybe they will know what I am talking about.