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Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

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Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby Graeme » Sat 20 Apr 2013, 20:35:45

Burn our planet or face financial meltdown. Not much of a choice

The world is going to fry – unless there is change soon. There is weakening political will to make national and international targets for carbon reduction stick, no strong business and financial coalition prepared to lead and a weakening groundswell of public opinion prepared to foot the bill.

Instead, the international consensus of 25 years ago – that the world must act to challenge climate change – is dissolving. Individual countries are trying to steal a march on each other in a race to the bottom, dropping whatever scant penalties there have been for burning fossil fuels.

This new political geography has been obvious ever since the Copenhagen talks collapsed in 2009, but last week the speed with which ground is being lost became sickeningly obvious. The European parliament refused to back a stop-gap measure to save the European carbon emissions trading scheme. This allows EU companies economising on carbon to sell an allowance to those who are less efficient.

The theory is that the higher the price, the greater the incentive to economise on carbon use and the greater the value in being carbon efficient. But overloaded with sellers and too few buyers, because policing the use of carbon is completely ineffective, the European carbon price has collapsed. The European Commission proposed to clear away the backlog of sellers with a one-off buyout of the overhang of carbon permits and so support the price, but parliament was not prepared to back the cost. The scheme is as good as dead.


Contemporary capitalism faces both a crisis of legitimacy and effectiveness. We have been told for a generation that self-organising markets and business, with minimal public intervention and oversight, are the route to wealth generation, prosperity and jobs – justifying the self-serving extravagant rewards for those at the top. Bankers claimed that their actions as debt levels reached irrational levels were sound. We know differently. Now fossil fuel companies and business are saying the same about burning oil, coal and gas.

Western people will sooner or later agitate for change, as will China's millions as pollution makes its cities unbearable. Nobody wants a return to the command and control economies that failed. What is needed is a new vision of how to do capitalism in which enlightened self-interest is hard-wired into its operation, saving us from decades of austerity and environmental disaster. There are instruments at hand – the Unburnable Carbon report sets some of them out – and they mesh with larger arguments for stakeholder capitalism. The political task is to bind them together to underpin a new consensus and a new narrative. There is no time to lose.


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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Sun 21 Apr 2013, 01:23:36

One financial stop-gap measure here, wait and simmer a few months, then another stop-gap financial measure (swindle) there, & they've bought a few months more. Money is a human social construction; they can play these money games forever until the reality of oil depletion can't be hidden anymore. Then the game's up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... RtA0x24q9s
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 21 Apr 2013, 03:27:09

Australia being the first country to introduce a Carbon tax, is about to elect a leader who has sworn to dump it immediately.
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 21 Apr 2013, 09:06:47

SeaGypsy – It seems easy for me to keep the dynamics simple in my mind. The public, where ever they are, get mad at those “damn Arabs” and those lying “oil company bastards” for increasing the cost of oil. The truth isn’t at all relevant. And every politician looking to get elected understands this.

So, forgetting the insincere lip service, what politician will voluntary join us bastards and Arabs in the eyes of the public? To change the dynamics the attitudes of the public must be changed…not the laws or oil patch regs or international treaties or carbon tax schemes, etc, etc. Changing the majority public pulse is the key…good luck with that.
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 21 Apr 2013, 19:26:28

Roc,

For once we agree. Tis a potty it's on such a tragic issue.

I have reconciled myself that humanity is just a Wiley Coyote cartoon in progress. We are hovering mid air, over the cliff, waiting for the thought ballon that says "oh shit".

A slightly more thoughtfull approach was delivered by Kevin Anderson. He explained in careful detail how we need to either shut down our current economy, RIGHT NOW, or fry Earth, two unthinkable acts.


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=RInrvSjW ... InrvSjW90U

Hum, lets see, A or B? Oh look, a sparkly!
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby shortonoil » Mon 22 Apr 2013, 09:18:34

According to the scientific community presently at large, global warming is slowing down. 1998 was the hottest year on record. That was 15 years ago, and it hasn't been any hotter since. This is very disturbing to them because it means that all of their sacred reference models (collect a zillion numbers and shove them into one huge Excel spreadsheet) have gone pluey!! Of course any pale-climatologist could have told them that the climate has been bouncing around like a flea on a hot plate for the last million years. They haven't listened because you can't get big research grants with an attitude like that! Its got to be cooking!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/ ... AJ20130416


Fortunately, with the end of the oil age (and every thing else we known) just down the road they'll be able to get some more grants! In the mean time the rest of us (who can't get big grants) will have to figure out how to deal it!
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 22 Apr 2013, 09:29:38

New Discovery: NASA Study Proves Carbon Dioxide Cools Atmosphere

A recent NASA report throws the space agency into conflict with its climatologists after new NASA measurements prove that carbon dioxide acts as a coolant in Earth's atmosphere.

NASA's Langley Research Center has collated data proving that “greenhouse gases” actually block up to 95 percent of harmful solar rays from reaching our planet, thus reducing the heating impact of the sun. The data was collected by Sounding of the Atmosphere using Broadband Emission Radiometry, (or SABER). SABER monitors infrared emissions from Earth’s upper atmosphere, in particular from carbon dioxide (CO2) and nitric oxide (NO), two substances thought to be playing a key role in the energy balance of air above our planet’s surface.


http://principia-scientific.org/support ... 4.facebook
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby shortonoil » Mon 22 Apr 2013, 10:27:39

In 1997 NASA also said that the high night time temperatures being recorded (the main constituent of global warming) were produced because of the ejecta of high flying commercial aircraft. Nobody listened to that either!

With oil prices around $100/b planes can't afford to fly as high as they did, and there is not as many of them flying. Night time temperatures have dropped. Surprise, surprise!!
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby Revi » Mon 22 Apr 2013, 20:42:55

The hottest year on record was last year. Global warming did not stop in 1998. It is actually accelerating. We are going to hit 2 degrees centigrade by the middle of the century and more by the end of it.

I used to worry that we would run out of oil. Now I worry that we won't.
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 23 Apr 2013, 08:27:29

Then why did it snow here once again lastnight - current temp is 29 F

This is the 23 of Apirl.........

I do not live in the Mountains, I do not live on the Canadian boarder.

I'm calling this 'global warming' a fake along with the theory we evolved from apes - nonsense.
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 23 Apr 2013, 15:08:21

2012 Global Temperatures 10th Highest on Record

According to NOAA, 2012 was the 10th warmest year on record:

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/news/2012-glob ... est-record
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby shortonoil » Tue 23 Apr 2013, 15:33:34

Revi said:

I used to worry that we would run out of oil. Now I worry that we won't


Conservative estimates place the OOIP of the world's reserve at 4300 Gb (USGS 5%). We have extracted about 1400 Gb. We are not running out of oil. What we are running out of oil that is affordable. That is, oil that can provide enough energy to the end consumer to support the economic activity that is required to procure it.

Chances are that you will see that day in your life time! It is not very far away.
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby Revi » Tue 23 Apr 2013, 22:02:27

Okay, I guess 2012 was only the hottest year ever in the United States.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01 ... treme?lite
Anyway we are getting hotter still. 2010 and 2005 are tied for the warmest global temps.
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories201 ... stats.html
Maybe once we run out of oil to burn we'll stop increasing global temps, but there's all that coal we can still burn.
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 24 Apr 2013, 07:29:12

Well thank God at least the Arctic isn't melting. :-D
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby americandream » Thu 25 Apr 2013, 06:09:11

A very confused article. On the one hand it recognises the problems inherent in capitalism, but on the other it calls for some more benign variant of capital.

Capital is agnostic and driven solely by the impulse to accumulate (labour surplus value). Irrespective of how one regulates the social economy, the underlying impulse (the driver of this particular cultural form) always compels social relations towards the maximisation of accumulation (which translates into all the problems you detail.)

The only resolution is the complete removal of accumulation (not modernity which can function within a socialised order), the utilisation of modernity for the needs of humankind and the evolution of a closed loop state.
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby shortonoil » Thu 25 Apr 2013, 14:01:53

Well thank God at least the Arctic isn't melting.


The Arctic also melted out about a thousand years ago. When Lief Ericson showed up there in 986 AD the hills of Greenland where covered in pasture. That's why he called it "Greenland" rather than "Whiteland"; which would be better term for it nowadays. Of course, in about a hundred years, it turned cold again and the ones that didn't starve to death, or freeze headed back to Iceland.

Then there is Antarctica! When it begins to to melt (which it hasn't for the last 100 million years) we should take notice. Recent satellite photos show that it is in the same condition as it was in 1960. Global warming is an activity I would rather leave to others. Understanding the real state of the world's oil reserves can give you plenty enough to worry about all on it own.
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We Can Beat Climate Change Without Economic Collapse

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 22 Oct 2013, 21:18:05

These Five Stats Prove We Can Beat Climate Change Without Economic Collapse

Carbon dioxide emissions fell nearly 4 percent last year. That's the biggest decline in global warming-feeding pollution in three years, and the biggest since 1990 that wasn't brought on by a major economic collapse. Emissions fell even further in 2009, after all, but that was mostly because the financial meltdown was such a strain on the economy—folks consciously drove less, used less electricity, and bought fewer products.

But in 2012, emissions fell while gross domestic product grew at a rate well above 2 percent. It was the least amount of energy the nation had used since 1994—and yet it didn't hinder economic growth at all. How is this possible? The answer demonstrates that overcoming our pollution probably won't derail the economy and send us back to the stone age, as certain blowhard politicians like to claim. And there are five simple stats that make the case ironclad.

First: 3.8 percent. That's how much emissions fell last year, according to the Energy Information Administration.

That's largely because energy consumption fell 2.4 percent in 2012—but US GDP rose 2.8 percent. And that's the big one; the conservative punditocracy is always saying that if we abandon cheap dirty fuels, if we use less juice, the economy will suffer. But nope. These gains in efficiency—many of which are coming from the stricter emissions standards the Obama adminstration implemented on the auto industry—are actually saving consumers money, which they can feed into the economy elsewhere.

Meanwhile, coal, which has long been the backbone of our power generation, is fading out. Last year, only 37 percent of our energy came from coal. That's still a lot. But it's nothing compared to the 52 percent it comprised in 1994.

It's a similar principle. Natural gas is cleaner-burning and cheaper than coal (though there's still a big fracking problem or two deal with there) and making the switch is simple economic sense for many utilities.

But beyond that even, Al Jazeera points out that there may be a "cultural shift" behind the falling numbers, too—more people moving to cities, buying more efficient vehicles, living less consumptive lives. After all, the drop in energy consumption and economic gains combined means there was a 5.1 percent decline in energy use per dollar of GDP in 2012.


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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby ralfy » Wed 23 Oct 2013, 06:21:06

The article refers to the U.S., which means the argument given is based on the assumption that most countries are like the U.S., i.e., they consumed fossil fuels extensively to industrialize and develop a middle class lifestyle for decades, and are now winding down.

But BRIC and emerging markets are just starting, which means in order to reach the standards of living of the OECD countries they will have to consume significant amounts of fossil fuels first.

Given that, what will likely happen is that a lot of oil and gas will be consumed and will decline as the effects of peak oil kick in. Other sources of energy will then be used to attempt to maintain or increase living standards, but that won't be possible. With that, economic crises will continue, together with the effects of peak oil, global warming, and even environmental damage.
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 23 Oct 2013, 09:05:23

ralfy - In the last 10 years coal consumption in China, India, Asia and Africa has increased 90% and is currently following a very strong increasing trend. Globally coal consumption has increased 30% in the last 10 years and is currently following an increasing trend. Globally oil consumption has increased 10% in the last 10 years and is currently following an increasing trend. Globally NG consumption has increased by 30% in the last 10 years and is currently following an increasing trend.

Truly amazing that anyone could speculate about a decrease in the production of GHG anytime soon.
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Re: Burn our planet or face financial meltdown.

Unread postby dcoyne78 » Wed 23 Oct 2013, 11:43:31

Hi Rockman,

I am sure you are aware that increasing an increasing trend now does not guarantee an increasing trend forever. Maybe you disagree? An increase in oil consumption of 10 % over 10 years is pretty anemic. Using the BP Statistical Review (2013) consumption of tonnes of oil, the yearly rate of increase from 1965 to 1979 was 5.2 %, from 1982 to 2012 the rate was about 1.3 %. At some point people will realize that global warming is a real threat and at that point, the US and Australia may slap a hefty tax on coal and the BRICs that are increasing their use of coal may reverse course, eventually natural gas will become more expensive which will also encourage more wind, solar, and nuclear power.

I agree with your main point which is that none of this will happen very soon.

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