[Keith_McClary]

Up to 1,000 people were forced from their homes in Lac-Mégantic, about 250 kilometres east of Montreal.
...
Flames and billowing smoke could be seen several hours after the derailment, which involved a 73-car train carrying crude oil.
...
Worried residents looked on behind the perimeters amid fears some of their friends and loved ones may have died in bars and in their homes after the derailment, which occurred shortly after 1 a.m.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013 ... _flee.html

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/lac-megant ... -1.1356274

[John_A]

I wonder if the pipeline protesters will now wake up and realize that a new pipeline running outside of cities and populated areas which, upon rupture, dumps some oil on the ground which can easily be cleaned up, is quite different than 100,000's of barrels a day running through population centers where it does, upon occasion (trains being less safe than oil pipelines), spill all over where the bipeds actually live and then explode because of the abundance of ignition sources?

Nah, doubt it.

[ROCKMAN]

Much too early to put on our tinfoil hats and talk conspiracy theories. But if you read the details it appears that it may not have been an accident IF you take the railroad’s stories about their failsafe systems as true. We’ll see when more facts come out but it doesn’t sound like it was high speed derailment since the loco was powered up at the time. A slow moving train traveling thanks to only to gravity on a slight grade explodes spontaneously? Hmmm.

[John_A]

So maybe the Canadians themselves blew the thing up to force oil into pipelines, putting pressure on the Obama administration to do what they know they are going to do anyway (even if it happens right before he leaves office)?

Canadians have always struck me as generally less radical than their southern neighbors, but it is possible I suppose. Now the Canadian Prime Minister can go to Obama and tell him, "Look Dude! Our citizens are dying to get oil out that America is demanding, let us put this stuff through a pipe out in the country already where it won't be killing our citizens because of your hypocrisy on this issue!"

[ROCKMAN]

Hell, John. If you’re gonna start it I jump in with the wackos too. Maybe it was done by greenies trying to highlight the dangers of moving oil by any method. Ohh…ohh…even better: it was done by someone in the Obama administration so they could blame it on data leaked by Snowden to some terrorist group. If only the Justice Dept been allowed to listen to all those Canadian phone calls this tragedy could have been prevented.LOL

[John_A]

Hell, John. If you’re gonna start it I jump in with the wackos too. Maybe it was done by greenies trying to highlight the dangers of moving oil by any method. Ohh…ohh…even better: it was done by someone in the Obama administration so they could blame it on data leaked by Snowden to some terrorist group.

This is good! So now that Snowden looks like he might head to Boliva, it gives us the perfect opportunity to invade to steal all of their lithium resources! Oil is so 20th century, he who controls the lithium, controls the manufacturing of batteries for the cars of the 21st century!

[ROCKMAN]

A few more details conflicting with some earlier reports. Witnesses did see the train moving at a high speed and some cars derailed. No mention of the locomotive which earlier reports indicated had decoupled before the crash . One known fatality and searching for more. The train was parked uphill from the town but no elevation/grade mention. Train company still sàys breaks were properly set

[John_A]

A few more details conflicting with some earlier reports. Witnesses did see the train moving at a high speed and some cars derailed. No mention of the locomotive which earlier reports indicated had decoupled before the crash . One known fatality and searching for more. The train was parked uphill from the town but no elevation/grade mention. Train company still sàys breaks were properly set

They are claiming 80 people missing right now.

[Keith_McClary]

A joke? Our Canadian brothers to the north have just died because our President is playing political games and denying them a safe method to transport their oil to world markets.

No. Just stop.

This was not Canadian oil going to export markets. Does John_A know where Quebec is or where Canadian oil production comes from? No.

[John_A]

A joke? Our Canadian brothers to the north have just died because our President is playing political games and denying them a safe method to transport their oil to world markets.

No. Just stop.

Why? Because I am saying the same things that the Guardian is? You might discount me saying it, but I am not the only one who knows that the President just managed to get Canadians killed to win political points with campaign contributors (Buffet) and eco-fascists.

Montreal, Maine & Atlantic owns 510 miles of track in Maine and Vermont and in Quebec and New Brunswick. The debate over shipping oil by rail is becoming increasingly topical, as President Barack Obama decides whether to approve TransCanada Corp's proposed Keystone XL pipeline from the oil sands of Alberta to the Texas Coast.

Backers of Keystone XL – a project which environmentalists strongly oppose – say transporting oil by pipeline is safer than using rail cars. There have been a number of high-profile derailments of trains carrying petroleum products in Canada recently, including one in Calgary, Alberta, last week, when a flood-damaged bridge sagged toward the still-swollen Bow River. The derailed rail cars were removed without spilling their cargo.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... n-oil-fire

[John_A]

A joke? Our Canadian brothers to the north have just died because our President is playing political games and denying them a safe method to transport their oil to world markets.

No. Just stop.

This was not Canadian oil going to export markets. Does John_A know where Quebec is or where Canadian oil production comes from? No.

It wasn't Quebec oil and I didn't say it was. And it was headed for a refinery. And the company which owns the line is named Montreal, MAINE, and Atlantic Railway. And this railway delivers oil to East Coast USA refineries as well as Canadian ones. The oil was as likely headed to Canada as it was the US, and for those not up on their geography, the US isn't Canadian and constitutes an export market for Canada. Except maybe not all that oil was Canadian, some are reporting it is from North Dakota as well.

In either case, if the XL was doing its job, instead of being a political football, the usual number of Canadians would be alive in that town today, rather than fewer. Lets all give a good round of applause for the American political system, making darn sure that others pay the price for our addiction to using oil and our ability to make others take the risk of moving it around so our President can be darn sure to get the board seat he wants upon leaving the office he has decided is but a stepping stone to the real bucks in the revolving door world of business and government.

[Plantagenet]

The takeaway message is that trains filled with oil are dangerous, just like pipelines filled with oil.

Environmentalists who oppose the Keystone XL Pipeline by saying its safer to transport oil by train are just as full of BS as oil company execs who promote the Keystone XL Pipeline by saying its safer to transport oil by pipeline.

Both methods have risks. Whether transporting oil by train or pipeline, there is a risk of oil spills and catastrophes.

[John_A]

Whether transporting oil by train or pipeline, there is a risk of oil spills and catastrophes.

Absolutely. So the obvious question then is...how many large volume oil pipelines run through populated areas versus railroads? Given equal probability of failure per barrel of oil moved per mile, and an equal probabiliy of failure across all parts of the system of transport, the one with the higher probability of causing death and chaos to bipeds is the one going through populated areas.

I've got two railyards within two miles of my house. Zero oil pipelines. In part because it is easier, and safer, to put those things outside of cities and towns, and while cities and towns will certainly upon occasion grow up around and over top them, the railways are nearly by design supposed to go through populated areas.

[Plantagenet]

Whether transporting oil by train or pipeline, there is a risk of oil spills and catastrophes.

Absolutely. So the obvious question then is...how many large volume oil pipelines run through populated areas versus railroads? Given equal probability of failure per barrel of oil moved per mile, and an equal probabiliy of failure across all parts of the system of transport, the one with the higher probability of causing death and chaos to bipeds is the one going through populated areas.

You are trying to use logic. The Keystone Pipeline decision isn't about logic, or jobs, or US energy policy, or longterm infrastructure upgrades, or the safety of oil pipelines vs. oil trains. If it was, then the pipeline would have been approved long ago.

The important issue for Obama is how many votes from environmentalists will Obama and the D's lose if Obama OKs the Keystone Pipeline? How much will donations from Hollywood go down if its approved? How unhappy will unions be if the pipeline is permanently blocked? etc. etc.

[John_A]

Oil leak from rail:



Oil leak from pipe:



One has plenty of ignition sources and bipeds around...the other does not.

The reason why we get fire and flames and dead people instead of a mess to clean up?

[dorlomin]

Oil leak from rail:

Oil leak from pipe:

One has plenty of ignition sources and bipeds around...the other does not.

The reason why we get fire and flames and dead people instead of a mess to clean up?

So troll, you in favor of leaving it in the ground?

[Lore]

Har... har... Trying to argue between the lesser of two evils.

[ROCKMAN]

pstarr – But the CR’s do have a love/hate relationship with petroleum geologists: we find the oil God created specifically for their use but we also believe in evolution. But the vast majority of us are white males so they make allowances. LOL

[ROCKMAN]

OK boys. As much as I dislike jumping into the debates of others some facts as I see them. President Obama could sign permits for a dozen pipelines crossing the border and a lot of oil would continue being railed to the east coast...and elsewhere. Economic advantage is driving that dynamic.

And a very picky point but just to be sure everyone understands the dynamics. The POTUS isn’t holding back a permit for the Keystone Pipeline. The Keystone Pipeline has moved hundreds of millions of bbls of Canadian oil sands production (COSP) across the border to US refineries for a number of years. Just as the other 5 existing pipelines between Canada and the US has been moving oil and products. In some cases for decades.

And while folks are arguing what the POTUS will do about the cross border permit for the Keystone XL Pipeline (an new p/l …not the existing Keystone P/L), Enbridge is beginning a new p/l plan to move 600k to 800k bopd of COSP via a border crossing p/l into Wisconsin. That section of the line is already in place thanks to having received the fed permit during 2008…during the first term of President Obama.

And once again when/if the POTUS signs the border crossing section of the Keystone XL P/L it won’t be moving additional oil for the most part but oil that is already crossing the border by rail and truck. There is a huge oil terminal on the Canadian side that receives the COSP via p/l. That oil is transported across the border and delivered to a number of terminals on the US side where much of it is put into other p/l systems. This is why Canada was able to export more oil to the US in 2012 than ever before in history. And as far as the lack of permit hindering COSP development it appears that 2013 will break the 2012 record by 10 -12%.

Hopefully for the last time I’ll need to explain that the hindrance to developing the COSP was the bottle neck at Cushing, OK. A bottle neck that has been relieved by several hundred thousand bopd thanks to the reversal of the Seaway P/L and will be alleviated a total of 800,000 bopd when the new p/l being built along the SPL right of way is completed in a couple of years. And all this accomplished without the need for fed permits. It was approved by all the states involved. Just as the 98% of the Keystone XL P/L has been approved by the states it will pass through. If the POTUS never signs the KXLP/L permit oil will simply move across the border via truck/rail for those few tens of miles and delivered to terminals on the US side which will pump the oil into the completed sections of the KXLP/L.

Folks can argue about the politics of this situation all they want. But politics will have little to no bearing on the export of COSP. It hasn’t so far and I see no reason to expect it to in the future especially as we stumble further down the PO trail.

As you sit there tonight debating the lack of permit and rail vs. p/l transport more oil is moving across the Canadian border than ever before and more and more oil is being transported by rail. None of the chatter will change that reality IMHO.