[SeaGypsy]

Yah, agree. He represents the 21st century conman, selling snake oil.

Most people want to believe in 'sustainability', as in technofix which will allow a version of the status quo to continue- Musk exploits this desire extremely successfully. His 'solutions' do nothing to address fundamental issues, but almost nobody is paying any attention to these, so his platform remains.

[SeaGypsy]

The OP isn't going to happen. Not like Trump will never be President not going to happen, but really, not, gunna.

[Newfie]

Newfie, I don't mean to be too dismissive but isn't Futrex a modified monorail? Has that transportation alternative ever really succeeded? Except at the Disney parking lot? (I have to admit that when I went to the site link, my horrible sarcastic brain stem read "System 21 ® Moonbeam Technology" lol)

PStarr
Sorry I didn’t respond way back. Yes Futrex was a monorail. Monorail systems are very successful in limited applications such as airport people movers. Futrex was trying to broaden their appeal to a broader ridership.

[Newfie]

I just came across this article on a new hyperloop application. I read the whole article but damned if I know what it’s about. Lots of puff. Maybe Branson needs money to pay for rebuilding his BVI complex whipped out by Maria.

http://gcaptain.com/dp-world-virgin-hyp ... eliveries/

DP World and Virgin Hyperloop One have partnered to create new global company seeking to revolutionize global freight transportation using the futuristic hyperloop technology.

The new company, called DP World Cargospeed, was announced this week during a ceremony aboard the Queen Elizabeth 2 floating hotel in Dubai.

[lpetrich]

They Hyperloop is nothing more than the latest version of something that has proposed every now and then for some decades: the vactrain.

The Very High Speed Transit System | RAND (1972)
Trans-Planetary Subway Systems: A Burgeoning Capability | RAND (1978)

It would be very exacting in reliability with not much opportunity for fail-safety. Each tunnel bore would have to be kept evacuated along its entire length. It would be difficult to go around a stalled vehicle. Etc.

I've seen a proposal for elevated tubes for Hyperloop lines, but that will provoke a lot of outrage from NIMBY's, I'm sure.

The under-construction California high-speed-rail system, which he slams, is technologically much more conservative, but it will not require spending billions of dollars on blue-sky R&D, and it will be much like systems elsewhere in the world that have had a remarkably good record of safety and reliability.

[Newfie]

The “vac” system was the very first subway technology in NYC back in the late 1800’s.

It would work better in NYC, no earthquakes and less subsidence.

IM oft stated HO high speed rail is a subsidy for the upper middle class, it does nothing for the lower classes or CC. While I agree with your “billions for blue sky R&D” statement I think the system under construction is huge waste of money. It too will waste untold millions to solve a non-existent problem.

But it’s the way human animals are, not terribly bright.

[Outcast_Searcher]

It would be very exacting in reliability with not much opportunity for fail-safety. Each tunnel bore would have to be kept evacuated along its entire length. It would be difficult to go around a stalled vehicle. Etc.

And that's the big "common sense" problem I see with hyperloop or "The Boring company" or any similar ideas being proposed for these tiny tunnels to move one vehicle (car or train or whatever) through at a time.

What happens when something goes wrong? The high speeds imply disaster for any kind of crash. The tiny size implies no good way to deal with mechanical problems if something breaks down, even if it doesn't get stuck.

Adding all the needed overhead to deal with such issues, and have the repair/EVAC, etc. teams ready would imply LOTS of additional expense.

I have to wonder whether Chicago has even thought all this through very carefully, since it supposedly now will have a contract with the city to supply train tunnel(s) real soon now.

https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-b ... t-chicago/

Maybe they'll be digging much bigger tunnels and it's all a moot point, but I wonder what Chicago will be accepting from Musk in its pursuit of a cheap solution.

[Newfie]

I can’t get past the paywall even though I supposedly have free remaining reads. Looking elsewhere I see its not “hyperloop” but just “loop.” I did find a Bloomsbury article in this fiasco.

Just for a start, looking at the team players, I see no company with any Civil infrastructure construction experience. I went to the Boring Co. Web site and its 100% marketing with not a single reference to experience, past jobs, the professional staff, capital resources, etc, etc.

Apparently Musk is not proposing the hyperloop technology, whatever that is, but a non-vacuums line using linear induction motors. Perhaps he is intending to support the “pods” using air jets. Not sure.

Linear induction motors have been used in traditional transit I.e. the JFK airlink. So this is starting to sound like a pretty traditional approach. Someone said something about letting cars use the tunnel. Sound totally incongruous.

If someone of his fans can find anything substantive about this proposal I’d love to hear it. I’ve done a little work on transit at Ohare.

Then there is this

Although cost estimates for the project are not yet known, the RFQ (Request for Qualifications) stipulates that the O'Hare Express Service will be funded solely by project-specific revenues (like fares or advertising) and financed entirely by the concessionaire," Mayor Emanuel's office said in a statement.

"There will be no taxpayer funding for the project."

[Newfie]

Ah ha, more info here. A pretty traditional system in many ways. 4 support wheels, 4 guide wheels. That leaves out the vacuum concept.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.teslar ... unnel/amp/

[Newfie]

Oh good grief!

The economic feasibility of Boring's project relies on Musk's confidence that it can build tunnels at least 14 times faster than previous efforts, which a company official acknowledged the company must still prove.

And while the concept of a self-driving tram or vehicle is not new, the particular model Boring envisions -- based on a modified Tesla Model X car chassis -- still has to be built on a large scale.

https://www.enr.com/external_headlines/ ... _caption=1

[Cog]

After looking at other boring projects, they are almost never on time or on budget. Difficulties abound. 14X faster is simply not going to happen. Anyone remember the Big Dig project in Boston?

[Newfie]

Chicago has NO skin in the game, it’s 100% on Musk.

You really need to read the full ENR article. They imply they are going to run the boring machines on Tesla batteries and the “sleds” as well.

My bet is they can’t build the airport terminal for $1 billion.

I worked on the bid to replace the OHare people mover fleet that is nearing completion. That also changed out the control technology, updated the maintenance building, and added a bit of infrastructure (all civil work in a selarate contract.) That very much smaller project, 3 miles, with NO civil infrastructure was something over $300 million. And was very much scaled down from the origional project which was $500 million, that OHare could not afford.

https://www.railwayage.com/news/parsons ... -contract/

[Cog]

The amount of battery power you would need to cut a 14 foot diameter tunnel through rock would be enormous. How do you rescue people when one of these electric trams break down? Access ports to the surface? You also have to ventilate tunnels to make sure there is breathable air. Not to even mention the requirement to keep the inevitable water out of there. We are talking about a 18 mile long tunnel from O'Hare to downtown Chicago.

I'm all for technology and breaking through engineering barriers but this doesn't sound the least bit possible.

[Newfie]

It’s possible, but expensive.

There are well recognized safety standards. Blue light stations every so many feet with access to the surface for evacuation. Lights in the tunnels. Steerable ventalation to provide passengers with fresh air when there is a fire. Control systems so they don’t run into one another, know when to start and stop. Keep safe breaking distance. Communications so you can push a panic button and talk to someone. The vehicles need all kinds of onboard sensors to report the vehicle health so that they can be retired from service is there is a problem. Things like low tire pressure. Dewatering pumps. It goes on and on.

Probably the cheapest thing to do is to bore a third tunnel to be used for utilities and evacuation and maintenance access. That what they did for the Chunnel.

Now this thing is supposed to run about 120mph on the guideway. That requires a very finely controlled contact surface. The surface will wear, it needs to be maintained. At OHare the Steel guideway surface is grooved for traction, but the rubber tires will wear off the surface. These guys are talking about Steel guide wheels. How do you maintain this system if there are only 2 tubes? You can run single track in maintenance areas without switching.

Where is their vehicle maintenance and storage yard to be located? How are you going to recharge these critters? It all gets quite complicated quite quick.

[lpetrich]

So it looks like The Boring Company has not done that much. It has acquired a TBM and built a test tunnel, but not much more.

As to how TBM's are powered, as far as I can tell, they are powered electrically, with long cables.

As to what to run in that Chicago tunnel, I have a suspicion that that tunnel's designers might eventually discover that existing kinds of urban-rail vehicles are the cheapest and most convenient to run in it. But there are examples of the sort of system that they seem to have in mind: a guided busway or O-bahn. In it, buses have extra wheels for following the busway curbs or guide rails. But not many such busways have been built.

As to skates for carrying cars, there is no way to get cars into them and out of them very fast. There is also the problem of merging them in with skates already in motion. It seems much easier to build a subway-train sort of system.