[Plantagenet]

Its the 50th anniversary of the JFK assassination in Dallas on November 22, 1963. There is a plethora of TV specials, new books, new revelations, etc. about JFK to mark this 50th anniversary.

PBS just broadcast an excellent NOVA report on the assassination, showing new forensics work on the shooting itself and on the autopsy. The new work based on modern techniques seemed to confirm the original Arlen Spector single-shooter hypothesis and 2-bullet hypothesis. Did anybody else see this show?

Any thoughts on the anniversary of this important historic event?


JFK Cold Case---a NOVA report on PBS.

[kiwichick]

impossible to be one person ; the bullets had totally different effects

[Plantagenet]

NOVA, the excellent science show on PBS, was pretty convincing it could be one shooter. They test-fired the kind of rifle found in the book depository, shooting the bullets through various gels and filming the bullet with super-high speed cameras. The bullets were remarkably stable on impact, travelling easily through the gel. They characteristically would start to yaw when the left a gel.

This exactly matches the trajectory of the first bullet----through Kennedy and into Connolly, with the hole in Connolly's suit jacket exactly matching the shape of the bullet when it had yawed into an almost vertical asimuth before striking him.

It was a perfect match.

[Pops]

That was a good show, especially the ballistics. Also the 3D scanner that plotted Dealey Plaza down to 1/4" (!) in 3d space was awesome. Although it showed that the shot from the grassy knoll was possible, the simple explanation that the way JFK jerked back and to the left was a result of nerves firing and the big back muscles spasming sealed it for me.

[Plantagenet]

FRONTLINE, the PBS investigative journalism show, is going to broadcast a two-hour investigative piece on Oswald this week. Here in Alaska its going to be on tonight. FRONTLINE is a hard-hitting investigative show---they go after everybody. Anyone interested in the JFK story should definitely try to catch the FRONTLINE show this week, and should also seek out and watch the NOVA show on JFK called "Cold Case JFK".

PBS FRONTLINE: Who was Lee Harvey Oswald?

[Newfie]

While the specifics elude me, what I recall is that the three shots were fired very, very quickly. The likelyhood of hitting a small moving target at that range and speed is astonishingly small.

My Dad was pretty darn conservative, not at all a conspiracy theorist. Just not in him. He was also the best shot I have ever seen.

He called BS, but it really stuck in his throat.

That is what sealed it for me.

..........................

A bit more, poking around I found that the MAXIMUM possible interval was 11.2 seconds for the three shots, given the first one missed. It takes 2.3 seconds (cited elsewhere) to work the action on Oswalds rifle. The interval between individual shots, was 4.9 to 6.3 seconds, with the longer interval between the first and second shot. So, shot 1 to 2 he had 4 seconds MAX to aim and fire, and 2 to 3 he had MAX 2.6 seconds to aim and fire. This is a bolt action rifle, so operating the action disturbs your whole aiming process pretty significantly. Not to mention that Oswald must have had a class A case of Buck Fever.

While one can concoct all kinds of exotic behavior about the bullet, the behavior of the shooter is more observable and more in question. So, for me, to discuss the bullet trajectory, you first need to accept a miracle, just to get to that point.

2¢


http://hnn.us/article/35445

Buried deep in the supplementary volumes to the Warren Report is a reference to what the Commission staff labeled “Position A.” (26) It was defined as a moment that did not appear on the Zapruder film, but represented the “first point at which a person in the sixth floor window of the Book Building . . . could have gotten a shot at the president[‘s back] after the car had rounded the corner.” (27)According to our calculations, Oswald realized what the Warren Commission labeled "Position A," and squeezed off his first shot, just as the horizontal traffic pole fleetingly obscured the president's body at 1.4 seconds prior to Z 133. (28) A first shot at this juncture means that Oswald fired three shots in an elapsed time of approximately 11.2 seconds, with intervals of around 6.3 seconds and 4.9 seconds between the shots. (29) The Warren Commission might be faulted here, but only for failing to pursue an early insight to its logical conclusion, and neglecting to mention “Position A” in its final report. (30) - See more at: http://hnn.us/article/35445#sthash.smrQqvBN.dpuf

[Plantagenet]

three shots were fired very, very quickly. The likelyhood of hitting a small moving target at that range and speed is astonishingly small.

One shot did miss completely. The Zapruder film show two shots hitting, consistent with the medical forensics as redone to modern standards in the NOVA investigation on "Cold Case: JFK" airing on PBS this week.

------------------------

[Newfie]

Yes, agreed. That doesn't alter my point.

I did find some info that says the rifle could have been fired fast enough and that expert marksmen were able to duplicate hitting a STATIONARY target 42% of the time. The odds become much worse if you throw out the first bullet. And worse once again if you make the target move, not only in the vehicle, but he was moving his head around after the first shot. And it WAS the PRESIDENT and this was an act of virtually assured self destruction on Oswald's behalf. So I expect he had some internal conflicts going on to distract his marksmanship.

So, is it theoretically possible? Yes. Is it likely? No.

But this is like arguing religion. You either believe or you don't. This is my belief. I respect you have a different one.

[Pops]

Another point made was the sound recording of the motorcycle cops radio transmission, is that if the round is hypersonic, there will be 2 sounds heard, the shockwave of the bullet breaking the sound barrier as it passs the observer arrives first, assisted by the bullet travelling at whatever it's velocity, and the separate blastwave sound from the powder exploding that arrives at the speed of sound: KA-Pow! That could be the explanation for the apparent closely spaced shots.

Here is an interesting theory, Oswald fired the first shot, the one that missed, before Zapruder began filming, which might eliminate the question about fast cycling time.

I have no idea either way, I've seen some of the other documentaries and this NOVA was the best.

[kiwichick]

one bullet went straight though and on to gov. connellly

the other exploded in jfk's brain

that bullet was designed to explode

oswald tested poorly in army marksmen tests

the exploding bullet entered from a much lower trajectory

[kiwichick]

jfk's back problem's may have inhibited his movements

[Plantagenet]

one bullet went straight though and on to gov. connellly

the other exploded in jfk's brain

that bullet was designed to explode

The NOVA show suggested that the second bullet entered JFK's skull from the back, consistent with a shot fired by Oswald from the book depository, and exited out the front, so the "explosion" is actually the exit wound. A bullet found in the car is thought to be from this shot---it is not an exploding bullet---it is the same kind as was used by the unusual gun Oswald was using.

This is consistent with modern medical forensics, which can use the pattern of the skull fracture to determine which way the bullet was traveling. NOVA engaged an medical expert to re-examine the autopsy data, and he found that the pattern of the skull fractures could only be produced by a bullet entering from the rear.

This bullet is a non-exploding type. In fact, it is the unusual ammunition used in Oswald's gun---same as the bullet found with Conolly.

--------
Hey...I'm not expert on this. Like Pops, I was just really impressed with the NOVA special.

The PBS FRONTLINE special report on Lee Harvey Oswald will be shown tonight.

[Newfie]

I think you meant to say " usual" as opposed to "unusual"?

By "exploding bullet" I take that to mean a "hollow point" which is a hunting round. The tip of the bullet has a dimple and the bullet is designed to "mushroom" so that it's cross sectional area increases as it meets resistance.

These bullets are outlawed by convention for "usual" military use. The military are limited to using bullets that don't expand that way because they have a "full metal jacket". We don't want to kill, just wound and maim.

Hollow points are what hunters use, who want to kill and retrieve game, not wound it so it wanders off.

I don't write 'em, I just read 'em!

[Plantagenet]

NOVA said the gun that Oswald used was so uncommon and unusual that the FBI didn't even have it in its gun database in 1963. The ammunition it used is also apparently unusual---whereas most rifle bullets have pointy tips to penetrate, the Oswald rifle used ammo that was elongate and cylindrical with a stubby rounded tip, like a 22 round but fully metal jacketed. The elongated shape of the bullet meant it had more surface area in contact with the barrel. When it left the gun it flew very straight. It seemed convincing to me.

NOVA: JFK cold case

The metal jacket supposedly minimized the damage the bullet sustained (i.e. the magic bullet) but the bottom wasn't jacketed, allowing bits of lead to be pushed out the bottom only after it had rotated and then slammed sideways into Connolly's bones....consistent with discovery of lead bits found in Connolly but none in JFK.

[KaiserJeep]

I was in 7th grade 4th Period (Study Hall in the Library) when we were all called into the Gymnasium and told that the President had been shot. I would not learn of the conspiracy theories until years afterwards.

[Newfie]

Are you sure that's what they said? If so I think it pretty much discredits the report.

It was a standard Italian military rifle, made during WWII, firing standard ammo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Ke ... tion_rifle

And

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcano

I'm no weapons expert, but what you are describing is far from unusual. It may be that the FBI did not have that exact variant in their database, but many, many thousands of rifles were made with that exact action, and millions of rounds of that exact ammunition.

That round was developed in 1890 with rifles being in production from 1891 till 1945. Oswald used one made in 1945, probably not the best quality piece. Apparently the damn things jammed all the time. Oh, and that ammo was not so good either.

Oswald's rifle had a 4 power scope, exceptionally common.

Listen to the conversation between JFK and Hoover a couple of days after the assassination. Hoover is so completely full of it in do many ways. But, none the less, his base story still sticks. And cigarette smoking is harmless.

(Google. Lbj Hoover tapes ... Sorry, I don't know how to get the URL to stick)

Like I said before, I respect that you have a different belief. Not arguing. I'm just trying to clarify some rather obvious misstatements. You are accurately reporting what you heard, then that report is really suspect. There is the possibility I'm missing something, but I don't think so.

Also, can't watch the TV show, don't have TV.

[Plantagenet]

Jim Lehrer (of MacNeil-Lehrer fame on PBS) claims that as a cub reporter in Dallas he asked the secret service whether they were going to leave the protective cover on Kennedy's car before the motorcade. Gosh you are right said the agent the weather is great here. He then called downtown, and said the weather is good all along the route....lets take the cover off.

The rest is history.

[Plantagenet]

The ballistics experts who debunked the conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination just appeared on NPR "Science Friday". They discuss their findings again, including the properties of the bullets fired by Oswald.

NPR Science Friday bit on JFK ballistics tests

Science...its pretty good.

[rockdoc123]

reading a newspaper today that went to great lengths to point out how unstable Oswald was.
The general thought was that two things started the conspiracy theories one was Robert Kennedy who made several accusations...first against La Cosa Nostra, then against Cuba and the other was that people have a hard time believing that someone as dumb as Oswald (he had no escape plan) could take down someone as important as Kennedy.
Given all the hype around the "magic bullet" it seems to me that no matter what kind of good forensic/ballistic explanation you get there is ample room for the conspiracy theories to thrive and given that many people have a healthy distrust of the US gov't as a whole these theories just get more fuel.
It's too much good theatre. The press loves it, the general public love a good mystery....it will not go away in our life time.

That all being said, being old enough to remember reading the newspaper and watching the news (on our old black and white TV with the rabbit ears you had to keep adjusting) I realize how much this one incident changed all of our lives. There are a number of those incidents I believe: JFK assassination, Martin Luther King assassination, the Munich Olympics, 911, each of which changed the way we all viewed the world.

[Loki]

Having been born in the 1970s I'm not terribly interested in JFK conspiracy theories. Too much like 911 troof, only more irrelevant. We have much larger fish to fry.

I tried to watch Oliver Stone's JFK the other day. Turned it off 20 minutes into it. The coverage on NPR has been a little heavy, but not entirely uninteresting. My ears perked up when they mentioned the John Birch Society, the Tea Party of the 1960s, and their "Wanted for Treason" poster. Remarkably similar to current Tea Party agitprop:




Conspiracy theories and partisanship aside, the social chaos of the 1960s does give some insight into what things may be like in the not so distant future. Political violence has been at a remarkably low level in the US in recent decades, but I have a feeling that may not be permanent.