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THE Economic Collapse Thread Pt 2 (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

THE Economic Collapse Thread Pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 04:56:27

It would do us all well to remember where we were at at the time of the last Presidential election.

The Spectacular, Sudden Crash of the Global Economy
Worldwide, industrial production has ground to a halt. Goods are stacking up, but nobody's buying; the Washington Post reports that "the world is suddenly awash in almost everything: flat-panel televisions, bulldozers, Barbie dolls, strip malls, Burberry stores." A Hong Kong-based shipping broker told The Telegraph that his firm had "seen trade activity fall off a cliff. Asia-Europe is an unmit­igated disaster." The Economist noted that one can now ship a container from China to Europe for free -- you only need to pick up the fuel and handling costs -- but half-empty freighters are the norm along the world's busiest shipping routes. Global airfreight dropped by almost a quarter in December alone; Giovanni Bisignani, who heads a shipping industry trade group, called the "free fall" in global cargo "unprecedented and shocking."

And while Americans have every reason to be terrified about their own econopocalypse, the New York Times noted that everything is relative:

In the fourth quarter of last year, the American economy shrank at a 3.8 percent annual rate, the worst such performance in a quarter-century. They are envious in Japan, where this week the comparable figure came in at negative 12.7 percent — three times as bad.

Industrial production in the United States is falling at the fastest rate in three decades. But the 10 percent year-over-year plunge reported this week for January looks good in comparison to the declines in countries like Germany, off almost 13 percent in its most recently reported month, and South Korea, down about 21 percent.

Chinese manufacturing declined in each of the last five months; according to the Financial Times, "More than 20 [million] rural migrant workers in China have lost their jobs and returned to their home villages or towns as a result of the global economic crisis." The UN estimates that the downturn could claim 50 million jobs worldwide, prompting Dennis Blair, the U.S. National Intelligence Director, to warn Congress that, "instability caused by the global economic crisis had become the biggest security threat facing the United States, outpacing terrorism."

link

'This is the worst recession for over 100 years'
Britain is facing its worst financial crisis for more than a century, surpassing even the Great Depression of the 1930s, one of Gordon Brown's most senior ministers and confidants has admitted. In an extraordinary admission about the severity of the economic downturn, Ed Balls even predicted that its effects would still be felt 15 years from now. The Schools Secretary's comments carry added weight because he is a former chief economic adviser to the Treasury and regarded as one of the Prime Ministers's closest allies.

Mr Balls said yesterday: "The reality is that this is becoming the most serious global recession for, I'm sure, over 100 years, as it will turn out." He warned that events worldwide were moving at a "speed, pace and ferocity which none of us have seen before" and banks were losing cash on a "scale that nobody believed possible". The minister stunned his audience at a Labour conference in Yorkshire by forecasting that times could be tougher than in the depression of the 1930s, when male unemployment in some cities reached 70 per cent.

link

World trade grinds to a halt as letters of credit vanish
Lack of trade finance is having a disastrous effect on shipping. In a report issued on Friday, Maersk Broker, a subsidiary of the Danish shipping group, blamed logjams in the banking system for the slump in the dry bulk cargo market: “Banks’ refusal to offer letters of credit has resulted in very few fresh cargoes reaching the market, which is adding to the owners’ woes.” A collapse in the trade of raw materials such as grain and iron ore, after years of frantic activity, is causing havoc. The Baltic Exchange Dry Index, which measures the price of voyages and the cost of chartering vessels, has plummeted. Rates for the largest transporters, known as Capesize, peaked in May at $230,000 a day. It is estimated that the daily cost of running the ships, including depreciation, is about $15,000 but at the end of last week, rates had fallen to $5,982 a day.

link

Europe scrambles to avert 'game over'
European leaders raced against the clock on Sunday to clinch a rescue strategy for banks battered by the worst financial crisis since the 1930s, under intense pressure to throw them a lifeline before world markets reopen. At a summit in Paris, the focus fixed firmly on how much state money governments could mobilise to buy into banks if needed, and if they would also underwrite lending between banks, paralysed for now by fear and distrust.

"If market confidence is not restored this weekend, it's game over," said Marco Annunziata, chief economist for UniCredit, an Italian bank which is among many whose shares have been hurt in panic-stricken stock markets. The American Standard & Poor's 500 index tumbled more than 18 percent last week, its worst weekly fall on record. European stocks plunged 22 percent and Tokyo's Nikkei crashed 24 percent.

The Paris meeting was hastily arranged by Sarkozy on the heels of a G7 summit of rich nations in Washington that offered no concrete, collective action.

link

$700 billion wiped off U.S. stock market in single session
The U.S. stock market has suffered a $700 billion paper loss in a single session, as measured by the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000 Composite Index, which tracks the stocks of 5,000 U.S.-based companies.

Tuesday's losses were the equivalent of the Bush administration's bailout package to rescue the country's financial system, approved by Congress last week.

This month's total loss is around $2.2 trillion.

The Dow Jones industrial average dropped 508.39 points, or 5.1%, to close at 9,447.11. It has now lost more than 1,400 points over the past five sessions, or nearly 13% of its total value.

The point decline is the largest five-day drop ever.

link

Europe falls into the abyss
We face extreme danger. Unless there is immediate intervention on every front by all the major powers acting in concert, we risk a disintegration of global finance within days. Nobody will be spared, unless they own gold bars.

Chancellor Angela Merkel has been forced to pull her head out of the sand, guaranteeing all German savings, a day after she rebuked Ireland for doing much the same thing. Reality intrudes.

During the past week, we have tipped over the edge, into the middle of the abyss. Systemic collapse is in full train. The Netherlands has just rushed through a second, more sweeping nationalisation of Fortis. Ireland and Greece have had to rescue all their banks. Iceland is facing an Argentine denouement.

The US commercial paper market is closed. It shrank $95bn last week, and has lost $208bn in three weeks. The interbank lending market has seized up. There are almost no bids. It is a ghost market. Healthy companies cannot roll over debt. Some will have to sack staff today to stave off default.

As the unflappable Warren Buffett puts it, the credit freeze is “sucking blood” out of the economy. “In my adult lifetime, I don’t think I’ve ever seen people as fearful,” he said.

link

The Bush Administration did not hand off some run-of-the-mill recession as the Republicans would now like to rewrite history to say.

The entire world was crashing due to the actions, or lack there of, of the Bush Administration. It's only a miracle that has allowed us to still be here posting.

We were totally screwed. If some Republican tries to tell you their party represents fiscal responsibility, laugh in their face, then punch them in the mouth.
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." - Patrick Henry

The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby americandream » Wed 29 Sep 2010, 06:31:10

Oh, I agree this was a nasty one cid, but not THE shakeup that will see capitalism hit the buffers. When that arrives, there will be no quarter given. Capitalism's true ferocity will be unleashed with a rage that will take us all by surprise.

The three recent occasions we witnessed this was with Saddam who threatened to set a bad precedent in the energy sector, bin Laden who got a little too uppity and threatened America's role as the bank vault of the world's wealthy and of course Afghanistan where the capitalist West unleashed it's latent fury when confronted by a pretender to its throne, the Soviets, by setting barbaric primitivism in the form of Wahhabist Islam, loose.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Revi » Thu 30 Sep 2010, 22:18:49

The nasty reality on the ground in a place like Maine is that there are very few jobs, you can't just work in the woods any more and most people are one rent or mortgage check away from homelessness.

The economic collapse isn't over here. We are hanging on, but just barely.

The price of gold and silver has gone up about 10% in the past 2 weeks. If it holds that is going to ripple into goods that most people buy. That means everybody just got a 10% pay cut.
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby patience » Sat 02 Oct 2010, 11:34:07

The only thing holding our area together right now is the multitude of govt. handouts--UE, SS, and all the rest. As someone said, UE benefits are the new soup kitchens. As those things run out, or are diluted by printed money, things will keep getting tighter for us. Lots of people on the edge now.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sat 02 Oct 2010, 15:46:51

The Bush boys did not hand over any old recession, but it should be remembered that the Dems fought long and hard to sit in the cat bird seat. They won. They won with the promise of hope and change. There is very little change left and the hope has long since evaporated. This is Obama’s depression. Make no bones about it. It became his depression when the Dems won power.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 02 Oct 2010, 15:57:33

Cloud9 wrote:the hope has long since evaporated.



Not for some folks, I guess...

"Liberal coalition rallies in Washington for jobs, education"

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/10/02/ ... cnn_latest
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sat 02 Oct 2010, 16:53:02

Nice crowd. Not as big a Louis Farakan's million man march and a tad bit smaller than the Beck crowd but nice crowd none the less. In truth a continuation of the same will not fix this mess. So I would be more than happy for the left to win this time around as well. If they do, we are still going to run into a wall. When we do, whoever is in power will get painted. Any political victory at this point may be pyrhic.

Trust me, here in central Florida, the hope is gone.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 02 Oct 2010, 16:55:38

Cloud9 wrote: So I would be more than happy for the left to win this time around as well.


"This time around as well"? The left did not win last time. The moderate won.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sat 02 Oct 2010, 16:58:38

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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 02 Oct 2010, 17:06:13

'The national recession “hammered the economy and engulfed every state,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Analytics Inc. in West Chester, Pennsylvania. “We’re light years away from gaining jobs.” '

I guess that's why the Repugnicans and some Demorats think it's so important to continue to ship jobs overseas and protect corporate profits.

gop-5-democrats-want-to-ship-more-jobs-overseas-t59667.html
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sat 02 Oct 2010, 17:15:15

I guess left to right depends on where you are standing. Seems pretty left to me.The current administration is fairly tight with the banking cartel. Then again, it is nationalizing almost every standing business in sight. The Supreme Court nominations seem pretty lefty to me. I don’t know. Maybe with things like homeland security and the wars, we should forget about left and right all together and just consider both parties totalitarian.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 02 Oct 2010, 20:52:30

Politicians are appreciation whores. They want to be loved. They will do anything to get that love. Very few ever do the "right" thing and most are punished if they do.

Obama can not lead the heard where the heard does not want to go. Mostly politicians just rush to get in front of the heard and then scramble to stay there and not get trampled.

So don't blame Obama, or even Bush for that matter. We elected them and gave them their mandate.

Frankly, although I much more approve of Obama or Clinton I would rather have seen McCain win last time. Then the Republicans could have dealt with this mess with Obama and Clinton running the Senate. Then they would have had a chance at coming out of this mess with a better mandate.

Obama really messed up with his "Hope" campaign. He could not deliver and now there will be a backlash.

But ultimately it is you and I who are to blame for the mess we are in.

Thanks Cid for this thread.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 02 Oct 2010, 21:03:09

Newfie wrote:Politicians are appreciation whores. They want to be loved. They will do anything to get that love. Very few ever do the "right" thing and most are punished if they do.



I think a lot of people don't appreciate how accurate you are here. Obama even more than W perhaps wants to be liked, at least that's how he seems to act with his capitulation to the right. Or maybe he isn't actually capitulating so much as showing his true colors as a semi-rightish moderate. He gives little indication of being willing to be hated like for instance Roosevelt was.

I don't think we would have done well with McCain as Prez, I think we might well be in a war with Iran or an outright (rather than covert) war with Pakistan. I honestly don't see how that would have helped anything.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Cloud9 » Sun 03 Oct 2010, 08:46:45

Both candidates rushed in to vote on the bank bail out bill. Clearly there is not a dimes worth of difference between the two candidates. The Federal Reserve and the international banking cartel it represents has bought both parties.

McCain would not have been any more or less willing to get us into a war with Iran. The reason we are not in a war with Iran has to do more with capabilities than politics. The Russians are tight with the Iranian nuclear program. Any attack would more than likely kill Russian advisors. Putin is already doing a fair amount of saber rattling. Such an event would stoke the flames under the Russian build up. Everybody is eying the oil patch. World war is once again a possibility.

This next election cycle is going to produce an even more dysfunctional congress. Fear is driving the debate. Unfunded entitlement program was just a phrase. Intellectually it was understood, but for half a century there was no manifestation of it. Social Security sent out its checks every month, entitlement programs expanded and multiplied. All was well in the Magic Kingdom.

Now federal agencies are laying off workers. States are borrowing money to fund operating costs. Pension funds are on the verge of bankruptcy. The state is starting to be perceived by the general populace as a parasite rather than a benefactor.

The glue that has kept these fifty states together is the currency. Even that is now under attack. The spike in gold and silver prices is proof positive that many feel the currency is in jeopardy. If the currency goes all bets are off.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 03 Oct 2010, 10:04:52

Not that McCain would have been a better president but we would have had more balance in government with less hyperbole. Then you would have seen Obama or someone come out in '12 with a true mandate.

I am afraid that the '10 election cycle will create a real log jam with nothing getting done which will last through until the '16 cycle. Then we could get some kind of real nut case movement that will support a more totalitarian government.
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Re: Refresher: The Economic Collapse

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 03 Oct 2010, 10:33:09

Newfie wrote:I am afraid that the '10 election cycle will create a real log jam with nothing getting done



That is the stated goal of the GOP, to make sure nothing gets done.

http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz- ... r-midterms
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