[rollin]

Have you ever wondered why there is no general response to major looming predicaments despite a hard-won deep knowledge of them? Has society and it's actions stopped making sense to you? Here are some of my thoughts on the subject, hopefully it will stimulate some of your thoughts and responses.

Money is losing it's effectiveness to accomplish "gains" in the world. People, all the way up through high level professions, are being driven harder and losing their effectiveness. Land and people are being misused. We have taken prime farmland and covered it with industrial parks, malls, houses, businesses. We educate people for 12 or more years, high level educations, and give them jobs that could be done with a three or four year education.

Money, society and civilization is becoming less and less effective. Major problems are ignored and pushed down the road, even as they get worse. Minor problems are sometimes dealt with but even these are done poorly and not done in context with the greater good or larger picture. Huge amounts of knowledge is being ignored or flagrantly crippled. Much energy, resources and time is being wasted by misdirection and poor leadership. We are wasting talent on creating the next great fad and little boxes that talk to each other, instead of dealing with reality. Global attempts to deal with major problems end up with little positive result or misdirected actions.

The result will not just be riots and uprisings, but a total hollowing out of our abilities to cope with the real world. A world of hollow societies and empty ineffective reactions, if they react at all.

If you look carefully, all those wonderful machines do not prevent poor decisions and poor judgment. The scary part is that obvious problems are not even being recognized by people or governments, it's like giant blind spots are forming in the collective mind.

I sometimes wonder if the predicaments we are in merely point out these systemic delusional states and blind-spots. That they are not the cause but the tell. That we were already on a path of ineffectiveness and inability when some people discovered the obvious true ramifications of our actions and directions. That would explain our general lack of response to critical predicaments. Maybe this toxic world we created has had a deeper effect than we can now fathom. Maybe we are (in general) just sick from our own creations and have become very muddle headed and incapable.

If what I surmise from observation and logic is true, then societies will move to a lower state of effectiveness. Creativity and individuality will be supplanted by bureaucracy. Leadership will become thug-like and follow simple self-interest. Short-term thinking and action will prevail over long term thinking and action. The ability to respond to large scale threats will be minimal. Only simple threats (real or delusional) will be the only scope of action. The individual will be suppressed over the group. Decisions will make no sense in a larger context.
A true world of keep it stupidly simple. Keep doing the same thing over and over and over. Where we can at best merely repeat history and at worst make no sense at all.

[AndyA]

I think the world makes sense if you stop thinking humans are rational and self aware. We are what we are, and what you see is what you get. Just monkeys acting out our instincts. This is who we are. We evolved from monkeys and are headed for overshoot and collapse. With a degraded resource base for good measure.
The world seems muddleheaded if you think humans are rational.
I am so smart. S.M.R.T.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uwbIBqz3NQ

[rollin]

Yes Andy, that does seem to be the common myth being swept around, that humans have no real control over themselves or are incapable of responding to known threats. Sure there is a range of cognitive ability and one can choose people or cartoon characters that "prove" the point.

However, that flies in the face of history, where people, governments and groups have responded to known threats. It also does not take into account that the current dangerous route we are on was started long before the knowledge that it was a dangerous route. The puzzling part that is happening now is the sheer lack of alarm and response to what could amount to total annihilation.

As far as your monkey analogy, it doesn't hold a teaspoonful of water. When have monkeys not responded to a known threat? They oftentimes instantly group, screeching at the threat and either move away quickly or attack it. You do not want to be part of a monkey attack, they are vicious. The term "monkey on your back" is not benign. It's one of the nastiest attacks and most persistent one's you can endure. So if we have monkey characteristics, everyone will be reacting quickly once the danger is perceived.


We may be experiencing a Black Swan event that has killed our ability to respond.

[Strummer]

However, that flies in the face of history, where people, governments and groups have responded to known threats.

Yes, but only reactively, not pre-emptively. It's not enough for the threat to be known, it has to be directly experienced by a majority of the population. The few exceptions are those threats where the solution actually reinforces the status quo. An example being the ozone hole crisis, where we acted pre-emptively, but we only did that because it allowed us to throw away stuff and sell even more replacement stuff and make tons of money, thereby reinforcing the consumer economy.

[Don35]

Read "The Collapse of Complex Societies" by Joseph Tainter. He talks about past societies that grew in complexity, became unsustainable, and collapsed. Interesting book. "The Fourth Turning" Howe and Strauss is good too. About the cycles of western civ history.

[sunweb]

We are not programmed to react to the tiger that might be in the tree tomorrow. Excesses (drinking, smoking, resource use) only changes if at all when we hit bottom. On top of that:
There are five natural factors that determine and will continue to determine our history and future.
* All life reproduces to the maximum their environment allows(population density).
* All life will use all the resources in its environment to promote its present living (population pressure).
* Much of life manifest an us against them protectionism (even plants release poisons to the soil to protect their territory. This is the convergence of territoriality (which is manifest by all life) and the need to belong for this dependently social animal called human.
* We are immersed in an environment of our own making and our "brilliance" threatens us with unintended consequences (whether agriculture or nuclear power).
* Groups larger than the small group of 30 to 200 people, which is the social environment in which we evolved for a million years, creates power-over and inequality.
These five factors are a natural part of life and being human. For more detailed exposition:

http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2011/05/we-are-here.html

[ROCKMAN]

S – “It's not enough for the threat to be known, it has to be directly experienced by a majority of the population.”. Well said IMHO. People are responding logically to the current situations. But they are doing it from a point of self-interest. They may see problems developing down the road but their actions are primarily focused on their situation today. And they will follow whatever path they can to maintain, if not improve, their condition. The “greatest generation” didn’t save the rest of the world out of some altruistic sentiment. The US was relatively content to see Germany and Japan roll over their neighbors without the need for our intervention. But when our interests came under direct threat we reacted. I see no difference in the country’s attitude with respect to the energy and climate problems we’re facing.

[rollin]

S – “It's not enough for the threat to be known, it has to be directly experienced by a majority of the population.”. Well said IMHO. People are responding logically to the current situations. But they are doing it from a point of self-interest. They may see problems developing down the road but their actions are primarily focused on their situation today. And they will follow whatever path they can to maintain, if not improve, their condition. The “greatest generation” didn’t save the rest of the world out of some altruistic sentiment. The US was relatively content to see Germany and Japan roll over their neighbors without the need for our intervention. But when our interests came under direct threat we reacted. I see no difference in the country’s attitude with respect to the energy and climate problems we’re facing.

Exactly, they see the problems down the road but do not respond. Exactly what I am saying. Yes we used to respond to the tiger in the tree the next day. Having studied martial arts under Indonesians, they carried weapons to take care of just that event. Why do we post guards and scouts, because of future events we do not know about specifically but that can occur.
Thanks for your responses so far, but they only seem to show to me the cloud that has settled over the general population where even the astute selectively remember and chose an easy answer over investigating what is happening right now that does not fit with past reality.
Look at the details of your life, you buy health insurance, brush your teeth, wash your hands, wear seat belts and try to avoid bad future possibilities every day. All of these are being aware and proactive of future threats that may or may not happen. The military exists, even when no real threat is imminent. We don't disband the military when the war ends and wait for the next event.
The WHO and CDC exist because of potential threats.
Do you drive on the wrong side of the road around curves because you don't see a car coming now? We are not a reactive species, we very much can visualize the future and act accordingly.

And weren't we already attacking Japan economically and Germany through Great Britain?

So why when millions are now experiencing horrible effects from pollution, climate change, economic disaster, fuel and food shortages, do we not really respond when we know most of the causes and the cures? The general population is suffering now, why no general response.

[Strummer]

Yes we used to respond to the tiger in the tree the next day. Having studied martial arts under Indonesians, they carried weapons to take care of just that event. Why do we post guards and scouts, because of future events we do not know about specifically but that can occur.

That's what Jared Diamond calls 'constructive paranoia", but again, it wasn't pre-emptive, it was reactive, based on past experiences. They carried weapons because many of their neighbours and relatives were killed or maimed by tigers, and those events are still either in the living memory or have been passed on through generations as traditions or customs. The same goes for the guards and the WHO and the CDC which were established to prevent epidemics that occured in the not-so-distant past.

[Paulo1]

re: "So why when millions are now experiencing horrible effects from pollution, climate change, economic disaster, fuel and food shortages, do we not really respond when we know most of the causes and the cures? The general population is suffering now, why no general response."

'Where does one start?' 'Easier to change the channel'.'It's always been that way.' These are a few of the responses I have heard. Remember the movie "Erin Brokovich"? Look how much effort and investigation/bluffing it took to reign in PGE? That was just one decrepit looking sad sack town. Hinkley? How about this old favourite? "Give em more food, and they just have more kids". I have heard this one since the 70's and sadly enough there is a little bit of 7.2 billion truths in that little gem....and yes, I am one of them.

I think people actually have no idea what to do or who to become involved with. A simple example: Our BC Govt imposed a private model on our Provincial ferry system. It was ideaology based in that private must be a better way to run the service. The rates have increased astronomically in recent years to cover increased borrowing costs because the operation is now at arms length from ther Govt. Private CEOs had a free reign to change its scope, structure, and mandate. Costs further increased. My brother lives on a Gulf Island and sees first hand what this has done to his community and others just like it. I live on Vancouver Island and never even think of going to the mainland for any reason when in years past we used to once in awhile. Said brother is organizing a protest to take place in Victoria. He is just one of the organizers. He has spent the last 6 weeks working non-stop trying to take care of the details and make it effective and worthwhile. This is just for shitty ferry service. What would it take to help out the Sudan, stop lobbyist control of Govt., reduce drug costs for the ill, help out South Sudan, stop the drone strikes....global warming? Corrupt bankers? Where would you even start?

One option is to 'starve the beast'. Protest? Easier to work for cash or barter and take care of one's own problems. Move off the Island, sometimes.

I don't know about you folks but when those horrible abused dog commercials come on the t.v. (narrated by Sarah Mc.) I quickly turn the channel and hug my Jack Russell. I assume others have a similar reaction. Call me muddleheaded, but some days I just want to smile, be a father and husband, and 'not go there'.

I also spend what I have in time and energy working with PO options/projects and trying to set up my family for what I believe is unfolding. Many of these issues are also symptoms of energy decline.

regards....Paulo

[KaiserJeep]

The various resources becoming depleted and the environment becoming polluted and the quality of life becoming generally poorer are NOT problems. They are the symptoms of the only real problem that we have, which is that there are too many monkeys in this tree.

Too many monkeys is absolutely NOT ever going to be perceived as a problem by any significant number of monkeys. It has never happened in the entire History of the tree from it's very beginning as a sapling. It is an evolutionary blind spot. The fastest growing parts of the monkey tribe live on crowded branches called cities and the monkeys draw comfort and feel safe because they are surrounded by other monkeys just as likely to be chosen by a predator as themselves. It is a basic survival strategy, don't appear to be the tastiest monkey in sight.

The tree has more monkeys than it can support. Their wastes are falling on and sickening the monkeys on the lower branches. The monkey tribe moves higher in the tree all the time, and the monkeys are restless because there are fewer and fewer fruits of the tree to consume.

Some monkeys are asking themselves: "What is wrong with this tree?"

But TOO MANY MONKEYS will never be the answer.

[yellowcanoe]

Some monkeys are asking themselves: "What is wrong with this tree?"

But TOO MANY MONKEYS will never be the answer.

Indeed. The cornucopian view would be that we should try to increase the monkey population as much as possible as this increases the chances of a super smart monkey being born who can solve all of our problems!

[Lore]

Some monkeys are asking themselves: "What is wrong with this tree?"

But TOO MANY MONKEYS will never be the answer.

That's because there is an elite group of 1% monkeys at the top of the tree that thinks the air is just fine.

[ROCKMAN]

Lore - And there's the problem in a nut shell: the air is just fine for that 1%. And so is the water, food, etc. TPTB, whether corporate leaders or politicians, do not have to deal directly with most of those problems. The corporates just have to keep the board of directors happy. And the politicians only have to convince the voters that they are the best choice to vote for.

[AndyA]

Rollin, the world makes perfect sense from my point of view, and it obviously doesn't from yours. If you believe the world should make sense, then I don't see any other way to make it so. It's not just about pollution, non rational behaviour dominates every facet of society.
It's a bit of irony, but I'll quote Ayn Rand "Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." Of course her response was to blame the government for everything that contradicted her theories.

[Lore]

Some monkeys are asking themselves: "What is wrong with this tree?"

But TOO MANY MONKEYS will never be the answer.

That's because there is an elite group of 1% monkeys at the top of the tree that thinks the air is just fine.

KJ is one of those 'realists' with the wealth and privilege to 'see things as they are.' Unlike us dupes who have to rely on hope and dreams.

KJ could be just one of those monkeys on the lower branches passing up the bananas to the top? Their reward for getting crapped on by these guys is that they get to stay in the tree. Meanwhile, they're so busy with this banana shuffle that they fail to realize just how sick the tree has become.

[ROCKMAN]

Lore - "KJ could be just one of those monkeys on the lower branches passing up the bananas to the top? " Hey...watch it gal. I resemble that remark.

BTW: the trick is don't look up with your mouth open when you pass the nanas along.

[Newfie]

I doubt anyone will change anyone's mind on this.

FWIW, it doesn't make sense to me that humanity is hugely more intelligent than our nearest relatives. I think we have a couple of little tricks that make it seem that way, coupled with our point of view.

But maybe that explains our problem. We evolved in a monkey world, and much of our response mechanism is geared for a monkey existence.

But our "tricks" have changed our world, or have allowed us to change our world in ways for which we have not evolved appropriate responses.

We are a bit like a kid with a hot new car. Yeah, we can stomp on the accelerator and are thrilled with the rush.

But we are not sufficiently mature, in aggregate, to control all that power and modulate the brakes, and anticipate the consequences of our actions.