[Sixstrings]

He says the U.S. must not 'go off without the European community.

Harry Reid: Get Europe on board before punishing Russia

The United States should hold off on punishing Russia until the European community is on board with a specific response to the growing crisis in Ukraine, the Senate’s top Democrat said Monday.

In an interview, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Congress should let the situation play out for “a while” before trying to impose any new sanctions on Russia, which is dispatching military forces into Crimea — forcing the West to scramble for a response.

“The most important thing is for us – the United States – to make sure that we don’t go off without the European community,” Reid said Monday in the Capitol. “We have to work with them. Their interests are really paramount if we are going to do sanctions of some kind. We have to have them on board with us.”

Tennessee Sen. Bob Corker, the top Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee, said over the weekend that Congress should “consider targeted sanctions against Russian persons and entities that undermine the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.”
Added Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.):

“I would fly the NATO flag as strongly as I could around Putin. I would suspend his membership in the G-8, be the G-7. The G-20 would become the G-19 at least for a year. And every day he stays in the Ukraine, I would add to it.”
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/harry-reid-russia-ukraine-europe-104185.html

Weak, weak, weak, they won't even do sanctions.

[Plantagenet]

Don't worry ---- Obama still has a pen and a phone.

If Obama wants sanctions, he'll just set them up with his pen and phone, bypassing Congress entirely.

[Sixstrings]

Don't worry ---- Obama still has a pen and a phone.

If Obama wants sanctions, he'll just set them up with his pen and phone, bypassing Congress entirely.

Apparently, there won't be any serious sanctions at all. Congress would support it. But Germans and Brits and other euros won't -- they don't want their economies hurt.

All that Russian money in London. And Germany's trade with Russia.

Ergo, Harry Reid blocks sanctions -- I wonder whose payroll he's on? Anyhow, this has all come full circle back to "it's a globalist NWO." So which way does that go, in the future, will human rights and democracy matter anymore or will it be globalist tyranny and dictatorship.

[Plantagenet]

Apparently, there won't be any serious sanctions at all. Congress would support it. But Germans and Brits and other euros won't -- they don't want their economies hurt.

All that Russian money in London. And Germany's trade with Russia.

Yup. Things already seem to be settling down.

It will take Russia a few years to digest Crimea, and then the Russian bear will again be on the prowl for new land to invade and steal. The National Bolsheviks may want Russia to expand faster, but Putin is basically carrying out their program of Russian expansionism at his own pace.

[Tanada]

Apparently, there won't be any serious sanctions at all. Congress would support it. But Germans and Brits and other euros won't -- they don't want their economies hurt.

All that Russian money in London. And Germany's trade with Russia.

Yup. Things already seem to be settling down.

It will take Russia a few years to digest Crimea, and then the Russian bear will again be on the prowl for new land to invade and steal. The National Bolsheviks may want Russia to expand faster, but Putin is basically carrying out their program of Russian expansionism at his own pace.

I don't think he sees it as expansionism, more like reclaiming territory that was historically part of Russia in his lifetime.

[Plantagenet]

I don't think he sees it as expansionism, more like reclaiming territory that was historically part of Russia in his lifetime.

Exactly right. So the question remains…what other former parts of the USSR will be next to be "reclaimed"? Is Crimea enough to appease Putin? Or maybe his success in taking over the Crimea will embolden him to reclaim other lost territories?

Also note that Crimea has not been Russian territory since time immemorial--- It only recently became part of Russia --- it has a long independent history. It was even part of Lithuania once. It was a Moslem caliphate up into the 18th century when Russia conquered it. The Tartars are the remnants of the former Islamic population that once ruled Crimea.


Map of USSR showing the borders of Russia and many lost territories of the USSR. Today Putin is "reclaiming" the Crimea…which country or region will he decide to "reclaim" a few years from now?

[Sixstrings]

I don't think he sees it as expansionism, more like reclaiming territory that was historically part of Russia in his lifetime.

Some Russians may see it that way (26%, according to Radon), but I sure hope you don't agree.

US is historically a part of Britain too. Wouldn't give them the right to take us back, after our revolution.

Seriously here.. Poles and Ukrainians and other east euros, they do NOT want back with Russia and it's been long time since the USSR and they were all miserable with Russia back then anyway.

These are independent nations now, they are very different now, there's no going back and it will never be right and there will never be an excuse for Russia to drag these nations back by force into a new Russian Empire -- they do not want it, they've been free a long time, Ukraine just got its freedom and it doesn't want to be with Russia.

If anything, east Europeans are more staunch and solid allies for the US than west europe. All Germans can think about is selling BMW's in Russia. East Euros know what freedom means and how important it is. Poland has really stepped up in all of this and shown leadership.

[Keith_McClary]

[Sixstrings]

ha, well Dems sure seem to be running interference for him.

Things don't usually surprise me but this one does, and it's just enlightening. The dynamics involved. I mean -- wtf do Democrats care about Germans selling BMWs in Russia and the oligarch flat market in London / Russian money in the City (the British wall street)?



What the heck is it to American Democrats??? Republicans are for doing serious sanctions, but apparently not Democrats. So what gives? My best assumption: DC Dems are beholden to hedge funds or somebody / big Euro money.

Putin is winning *big*, all around, with the old West alliance split because Germans and Brits can't stand to lose one nickel over Russian trade and Russian money coming in.

Seriously, this one surprises me. I thought liberals were on board because of all the human rights issues -- that's why I get so worked up about Russia, I'm in the middle, I see the brass knuckel geopolitics of it AND the human rights concern me. But here it is, showdown with Putin and where are liberals? *Nowhere*, they are AWOL, they can't even do any sanctions for crying out loud.

[Tanada]

ha, well Dems sure seem to be running interference for him.

Things don't usually surprise me but this one does, and it's just enlightening. The dynamics involved. I mean -- wtf do Democrats care about Germans selling BMWs in Russia and the oligarch flat market in London / Russian money in the City (their wall street)?



What the heck is it to American Democrats??? Republicans are for doing serious sanctions, but apparently not Democrats. So what gives? My best assumption: DC Dems are beholden to hedge funds or somebody / big Euro money.

Putin is winning *big*, all around, with the old West alliance split because Germans and Brits can't stand to lose one nickel over Russian trade and Russian money coming in.

It is all about the Russian trade indeed, without the Russian supplied oil and natural gas the barely living EU economy goes back into the ICU. If Putin cuts them off for too long they die because there are no other suppliers able to make up the difference in the world market. It looks to me like they got this message loud and clear, even if it was a quiet hint during an unpublicized back room conversation between low level staff members of the governments involved. The EU messes with Russia and they lose their economy.

[Sixstrings]

It is all about the Russian trade indeed, without the Russian supplied oil and natural gas the barely living EU economy goes back into the ICU. If Putin cuts them off for too long they die because there are no other suppliers able to make up the difference in the world market. It looks to me like they got this message loud and clear, even if it was a quiet hint during an unpublicized back room conversation between low level staff members of the governments involved. The EU messes with Russia and they lose their economy.

I agree, but just to add: we're talking war and peace here. And the future of Europe, getting bullied by Putin. And that *there must be* some strategic response to the unilateral Crimean invasion. And this matters to the US because of what weakness signals to Iran, and China, and North Korea.

Liberals say any NATO exercises or sabre-rattling is off the table, liberals said tough sanctions instead. Now liberals say we can't do the sanctions either.

There will have to be some suffering and sacrifice out of this, if not boots on the ground then that means economic. And I'm not so sure Russia trade would be anything catastrophic, and I'm not even saying total all-out economic war -- my issue here is that liberals have now abandoned even a few *tough* sanctions.

People just don't believe in anything anymore, and, Europe is controlled by banksters. That British member of parliament was photographed with a document saying all kinds of things like "oh noes, don't shut Russian money out of London's Financial District."

[Subjectivist]

It is all about the Russian trade indeed, without the Russian supplied oil and natural gas the barely living EU economy goes back into the ICU. If Putin cuts them off for too long they die because there are no other suppliers able to make up the difference in the world market. It looks to me like they got this message loud and clear, even if it was a quiet hint during an unpublicized back room conversation between low level staff members of the governments involved. The EU messes with Russia and they lose their economy.

I agree, but just to add: we're talking war and peace here. And the future of Europe, getting bullied by Putin. And that *there must be* some strategic response to the unilateral Crimean invasion.

Liberals say any NATO exercises or sabre-rattling is off the table, liberals said tough sanctions instead. Now liberals say we can't do the sanctions either.

There will have to be some suffering and sacrifice out of this, if not boots on the ground then that means economic. And I'm not so sure Russia trade would be anything catastrophic, and I'm not even saying total all-out economic war -- my issue here is that liberals have now abandoned even a few *tough* sanctions.

People just don't believe in anything anymore, and, Europe is controlled by banksters. That British member of parliament was photographed with a document saying all kinds of things like "oh noes, don't shut Russian money out of London's Financial District."

You ask if its really that bad. The EU gets over 25% of thei natural gas directly from Russia. How long they can anger Russia is directly proportional to how much storage they have and what price they are willing to pay Russia in the future. I get the distinct impression that Mr. Putin does not forget and forgive threats from those who need him more than he needs them. If you are able to prove yourself an equal he will respct you, but if you are a needy greedy customer, not so much respect.

[Sixstrings]

You ask if its really that bad. The EU gets over 25% of thei natural gas directly from Russia. How long they can anger Russia is directly proportional to how much storage they have and what price they are willing to pay Russia in the future. I get the distinct impression that Mr. Putin does not forget and forgive threats from those who need him more than he needs them. If you are able to prove yourself an equal he will respct you, but if you are a needy greedy customer, not so much respect.

The West should never bow to threats or bullying. Berlin was supplied with an airlift in the '60s. If we are in fact that dependent on a Russia with an uncertain future, then perhaps we shouldn't be so dependent. Or at minimum, alternatives need to be in the pipeline, and NATO needs a plan to address this very contingency.

If we do not.. if the West is at Putin's mercy.. then we can be bullied same as Ukraine. If not Putin, then the next Russian dictator, which we have no idea who that would be or if Russia will ever tack back to regular euro type democracy.

But anyhow I think there's progress being made in negotiations, we'll see.

Along the lines of what you just said Subj, "why sanctions won't ever happen:"

Siemens CEO Explains Why Russian Sanctions Will Never Happen

With the UK rapidly backing away from sanctions against the Russians (and the Russians suggesting the confiscation of US and EU assets should sanctions occur), it appears President Obama is becoming increasingly isolated in his calls for sanctions. As the CEO of Siemens - Germany's massive industrial conglomerate explains Russian natural gas provides “lifeblood” to western Europe and there is substantial “dependency.”

Siemens CEO Explains Why Russian Sanctions Will Never Happen

Via WSJ,

The head of German industrial conglomerate Siemens AG said he doesn’t expect European governments will press hard for sanctions against Russia in response to the Kremlin’s authorization to potentially deploy troops into Ukraine.

Siemens President and Chief Executive Joe Kaeser was asked about the situation in Ukraine during an appearance at the IHS CERAWeek energy conference in Houston, Texas. He said it was important to remember that Russian natural gas provides “lifeblood” to western Europe and there is substantial “dependency.”

“Maybe the American people or the government or whoever raises their eyebrows can say how could the Europeans be so moderate on the debate over sanctions. Guess what? You don’t want to sanction anyone you depend on,” Mr. Kaeser said.

...
Mr. Kaeser went on to say the U.S. is in a better position to consider economic sanctions against Russia because of its recent surge in oil and gas production.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-05/siemens-ceo-explains-why-russian-sanctions-will-never-happen

Hm, well gee, I guess this is why Ronald Reagan was against those pipelines.

If this globalism winds up keeping world peace then I suppose it works out for the best, but if it just chains the West to Putin like we're all a Belarus or Ukraine -- with Russia free to do whatever it wants to do and invade anywhere -- then that sucks.

[Sixstrings]

Was just googling some background on Reagan and Russian pipelines and came up with this (old article, not current news):

CIA plot led to huge blast in Siberian gas pipeline

A CIA operation to sabotage Soviet industry by duping Moscow into stealing booby-trapped software was spectacularly successful when it triggered a huge explosion in a Siberian gas pipeline, it emerged yesterday.

Thomas Reed, a former US Air Force secretary who was in Ronald Reagan's National Security Council, discloses what he called just one example of the CIA's "cold-eyed economic warfare" against Moscow in a memoir to be published next month.

Leaked extracts in yesterday's Washington Post describe how the operation caused "the most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space" in the summer of 1982.

Mr Reed writes that the software "was programmed to reset pump speeds and valve settings to produce pressures far beyond those acceptable to pipeline joints and welds".

The CIA learned of Soviet ambitions to steal the software via a French KGB source, Col Vladimir Vetrov, codenamed Farewell. His job was to evaluate the intelligence collected by a shadowy arm of the KGB set up a network of industrial spies to steal technology from the West.

The breakthrough came when Vetrov told the CIA of a specific "shopping list" of software technology that Moscow was seeking to update its pipeline as it sought to export natural gas to Western Europe.

Washington was keen to block the deal and, after securing President Reagan's approval in January 1982, the CIA tricked the Soviet Union into acquiring software with built-in flaws.

"In order to disrupt the Soviet gas supply, its hard currency earnings from the West, and the internal Russian economy, the pipeline software that was to run the pumps, turbines and valves was programmed to go haywire after a decent interval, to reset pump speeds and valve settings to produce pressures far beyond those acceptable to pipeline joints and welds," Mr Reed writes.

The project exceeded the CIA's wildest dreams. There were no casualties in the explosion, but it was so dramatic that the first reports are said to have stirred alarm in Washington.

The initial reports led to fears that the Soviets had launched a missile from a place where rockets were not known to be based, or even had detonated "a small nuclear device", Mr Reed writes in his book.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1455559/CIA-plot-led-to-huge-blast-in-Siberian-gas-pipeline.html

[Plantagenet]

If this globalism winds up keeping world peace then I suppose it works out for the best, but if it just chains the West to Putin like we're all a Belarus or Ukraine -- with Russia free to do whatever it wants to do and invade anywhere -- then that sucks.

There's an old saying---he who gots the gold makes the rules.

In todays world he who gots oil and NG makes the rules, and Putin gots the oil and NG that the EU depends upon.

We're just lucky in the US that frakking came along so we're not as dependent on imports as we used to be.