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"Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

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"Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 18 Mar 2014, 23:49:08

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Vancouver (AFP) - Former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden emerged from his Russian exile Tuesday in the form of a remotely-controlled robot to promise more sensational revelations about US spying programs.

The fugitive's face appeared on a screen as he maneuvered the wheeled android around a stage at the TED gathering, addressing an audience in Vancouver without ever leaving his secret hideaway.

"There are absolutely more revelations to come," he said. "Some of the most important reporting to be done is yet to come."


...

When Anderson posed the question to the TED audience -- known for famous, innovative, and influential attendees -- the idea that Snowden was a force for good met with applause.

- Hero or traitor? -

"Hero patriot or traitor; I would say I am an American citizen just like anyone else," Snowden said.

"What really matters here is the kind of government we want; the kind of Internet we want."
http://news.yahoo.com/robot-snowden-promises-more-us-spying-revelations-200246526.html;_ylt=AwrBEiSfqihTkQMAvUzQtDMD


He's starting to cross over into "traitor" territory, at this point.

I agree with him on the spying and internet issues, but, the whole point of these views IS SO WE DON'T BECOME LIKE PUTIN'S RUSSIA, and yet there he is, *in Russia.* How does that make any sense.

Given what Russia is doing lately, it's just not cool anymore, a Snowden over there releasing more and more "revelations."

One can assume that Russian intel has everything Snowden took out with him -- including sensitive natl security info. It could be Russian intel manipulating Snowden, at this point -- why else is he talking about "more revelations" to come??? I thought the deal was that he said what he had to say, and then was going to stop leaking, and the US gov would leave him alone.

The whole thing lacks moral force, at this point, because he's over there in Russia and certainly can never say anything about Putin, now can he?
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 19 Mar 2014, 00:26:39

pstarr wrote:Edward Snowden was in Russia before Russia become America's latest distraction. What would you expect Snowden to do now? Come back here and face charges for sedition? Perhaps he might don a balaclava, tease us with a miniskirt join pussy riot, and make bad music?


I know. At the time, I even said on this forum that an antagonistic Russia could be good overall, to keep the Western superpower in check. We need that counterbalance.

But just short of war.

Now, I don't know.. everything Russia is doing.. all the tapes they've released on youtube, of US diplomats, it's just all a big Russian game of chess on us and I think Snowden is now a pawn. That's my gut reaction. Russian intel is controlling him at this point.

The thing is, at first Putin was responsible and gave him asylum on the condition he didn't leak anymore (that's what I remember reading from news articles at the time). So now, here Snowden is, leaking some more. That means Putin is behind it, because they had told him not to do it. Am I wrong?

And also, at this point with things heating up between the US and Russia, the "traitor" part here is if Snowden has turned over any classified info that could put all Americans in danger.
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 19 Mar 2014, 02:37:49

If you paid any attention to what Snowden released, you would find that if anyone is a traitor it's the USG.
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Pops » Wed 19 Mar 2014, 08:03:25

Barring some big scary event, I'm thinking we'll be seeing another "Church Commission" soon.

If Dianne Feinstein, long time D defender of the NSA and allowing every kind of civil rights intrusion (except when she's the target) decides the gig is up, then watch out.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 19 Mar 2014, 12:39:40

SeaGypsy wrote:If you paid any attention to what Snowden released, you would find that if anyone is a traitor it's the USG.


I'm just saying.. that Putin's moves lately make not sympathetic anymore about Snowden being over there, still spouting off. If Russia turns aggressive on us, I don't care about them knowing the NSA and spying revelations, but the concern is whatever else Snowden took to them.

At the end of the day, the NSA would never scare us with ICBM crap. The whole concern on the spying issue is that it *could* lead to totalitarianism, the slippery slope, but if there's already totalitarianism out there rattling sabres and ICBMs then that's a more pressing concern.

For goodness sake, Putin said "I wish I could get away with that" (the NSA spying). Russian intel does the same and worse, they just don't have the tech the US does.

SG, I'm an American and patriot first. This is where the Left loses me -- no American goes to Iran or North Korea and takes intel with them and gets my sympathy, and now Russia is getting close to the same category. Again, the concern is what other intel he took with him, to what could be a nation hostile to the US.

Russian TV programs about their cobalt perimeter system "dead hand" doomsday device worry me more than the NSA thing.

Just my opinion and I have a right to it, I don't see how any American could go to a hostile regime and turn this intel over.

(I'll make the point a 3rd time -- Snowden's NSA revelations were a public service, but now it looks likely that Putin is just using him, so that's where the Left loses me on this. The concern here is nobody knows what info Snowden took with him, and has turned over, now to be used by Putin. Putin had at first told Snowden not to leak anymore, now Snowden is starting it up again, my gut says the Russians are using him now so that makes it all a different story at this point.)
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Pops » Wed 19 Mar 2014, 13:03:52

Sixstrings wrote:Russian TV programs about their cobalt perimeter system "dead hand" doomsday device worry me more than the NSA thing.

See, that's the problem, a majority are more worried about some remote chance of armageddon than the real possibility that the government is grossly violating our civil rights simply because they can.

And Why is that? Because we take those protections for granted. You often hear about "coddling criminals" from people who believe, actually believe, "I haven't done anything wrong, I'm innocent, I'd never be falsely accused, So what do I care, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out."

I think they are fundamentally incapable of grasping the idea that civil rights protections are not for the guilty, they're for the innocent. It's the reason I think civil rights are the highest form of civilization, the hardest to protect and will be the first to go.

People will trade those protections away in a heartbeat to be able to feel a little more secure to go about the business of buying stuff and posting on facebook.


ETA: Not directed at you personally Six, more at the security at all costs mindset.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 19 Mar 2014, 15:24:11

Pops wrote:See, that's the problem, a majority are more worried about some remote chance of armageddon than the real possibility that the government is grossly violating our civil rights simply because they can.

And Why is that? Because we take those protections for granted. You often hear about "coddling criminals" from people who believe, actually believe, "I haven't done anything wrong, I'm innocent, I'd never be falsely accused, So what do I care, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out."

I think they are fundamentally incapable of grasping the idea that civil rights protections are not for the guilty, they're for the innocent. It's the reason I think civil rights are the highest form of civilization, the hardest to protect and will be the first to go.

People will trade those protections away in a heartbeat to be able to feel a little more secure to go about the business of buying stuff and posting on facebook.


I agree with you so much, and as usual you express what I'd like to be able to say, but you do it so much better Pops. And without pushing anyone's buttons.

I'm still that old Republican at heart, though.. Snowden in Russia was cool at first, now it just ain't so cool to me. I can't help it, it's like a Jane Fonda going to 'nam and all that. If we have an adversary, if that's what Russia is becoming and actively screwing with the US, then it is not cool you don't go and aid and abed the other side like that.

I fully recognize that tyranny can get ushered in, to supposedly fight tyranny (or a threat). We saw a lot of progression to police state post 9/11, after all.

And in WWII we did some bad things, like internment camps for Japanese Americans (they weren't concentration camps, but still).

It's a bit of a tossup.. if we're in Cold War, if there are real threats, then I don't know Pops.

All I'm saying is I can't cheer Snowden on anymore, it really is an issue that he may have handed over to Russia who knows what, other than the "public service" spying revelations. There really is a line between patriot and traitor. I guess that line is if Snowden becomes Russia's pawn, and most importantly, whatever else he handed over to them.

I'm still on your side with this, I just can't cheer Snowden on anymore. He had previously said that he wasn't going to leak anymore. And Putin gave him asylum on condition that he wouldn't. And now it looks like he's ready to start it up, again -- so wtf is that about, if there were more in his little thumb drive the world needed to know THEN WHY DIDN'T HE LEAK IT already. It's a game at this point.

(I'm not arguing with you either Pops, and never would.)
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Pops » Wed 19 Mar 2014, 15:48:55

I don't know what he might or might not have released and how much it might have hurt individuals or "Methods & Procedures" but when the gov has decided it can sweep whatever rights under the carpet because they think it is expedient and that they have an excuse to toss the constitution and just keep right on doing it indefinitely, that is wrong and someone needs to stand up. When you make omelets you break eggs.

Don't get me wrong, I got a tear watching the Medal of Honor ceremony the other day and the Anthem can choke me up. I also have 3 kids who are career military (Son, SIL, DIL) - one still deployed in fact, and I'd not want to see them put in danger by a leaker.

But . . . I'd expect them to disregard unlawful or unconstitutional orders and to speak out rather than go along with whatever Jack-Bower-esque, Orwellian plot that undermines the 4th amendment or any other part - the oath is to the constitution, not their superior, the director of the NSA or even the POTUS.
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 19 Mar 2014, 16:37:56

Sixstrings wrote: Snowden in Russia was cool at first, now it just ain't so cool to me. I can't help it, it's like a Jane Fonda going to 'nam and all that. If we have an adversary, if that's what Russia is becoming and actively screwing with the US, then it is not cool you don't go and aid and abet the other side like that.


When Snowden went to Russia the folks in DC still thought Putin was their great friend. You can hardly blame Snowden for Crimea when even the US government didn't foresee it.

Sixstrings wrote: I can't cheer Snowden on anymore, it really is an issue that he may have handed over to Russia who knows what


All the more reason for all the scope of the US spying program to be curtailed. All the Obama administration did by spying on Merkel and other US allies was to alienate them. All the Obama administration did by infiltrating spying into Cisco gear and Facebook was to make Cisco and Facebook and other US companies a much harder sell in foreign countries.

The whole mass spying program is wrong-headed and unconstitutional and there is no law authorizing the government to spy on everybody and everything. The mass spying program should be shut down---it has damaged the US much more than it has helped. It would be much smarter and much more efficient to focus on our efforts on al Qaida and Russia and their agents, rather than spying on every single person in the US, Germany and heaven knows where else. Maybe then we'd have a chance of being alerted in advance when something like the Russian invasion of Crimea is about to happen. :roll:
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 19 Mar 2014, 17:40:52

Snowden is well spoken and clearly sees himself as a patriotic American who was outraged by the unconstitutional secret spying going on. Check it out---his TED talk is pretty interesting.

Snowden's TED talk

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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 20 Mar 2014, 16:18:34

Plantagenet wrote:Snowden is well spoken and clearly sees himself as a patriotic American who was outraged by the unconstitutional secret spying going on. Check it out---his TED talk is pretty interesting.


Well, everyone take note, me and Plant do not always agree and that's okay. People can disagree without badgering each other to prove the other "wrong." People can respect each others' honest view.

If Russia rattles sabres then I go back to my Republican roots, I can't help it. At the end of the day I can handle my own "domestic policy" but I can't handle the world and that's what we're supposed to have a president doing.

Snowden did a public service and was a patriot for that, but just think.. he's an American too.. how can he become the pawn of a hostile regime and feel good about that, in his stomach? I sure couldn't, but I guess folks are different.

If there were at least some kind of definite assurance that he isn't handing over unrelated intel, if it's just the spying things, then okay. But I wonder.

EDIT: To expound on the moral question here some more..

Ok, Snowden had a choice. He could have leaked the spying things but not the other unrelated stuff (assuming he took everything he could). And then he could have done his time in federal prison.

Now nobody wants to spend life in prison and I get that, and also it's true the US gov blocked him from fleeing to any other nation besides Russia.

Now, I had no problem about this at all, until recently and new developments from Putin. Things have changed now.

Here's the moral breakdown: if Snowden is a patriot, then a patriot would rather sit in jail than *hurt his country* by aiding and abedding a dangerous foe (not saying Russia is that, quite yet, but we don't know at this point).

What if he had gone to North Korea? That would be clearly a traitor, no? A patriot would take the prison time and release the intel back home rather than become a North Korean pawn and give them who knows what info, right???
Last edited by Sixstrings on Thu 20 Mar 2014, 16:39:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 20 Mar 2014, 16:39:18

Sixstrings wrote:Snowden did a public service and was a patriot for that, but just think.. he's an American too.. how can he become the pawn of a hostile regime and feel good about that, in his stomach? I sure couldn't, but I guess folks are different.

If there were at least some kind of definite assurance that he isn't handing over unrelated intel, if it's just the spying things, then okay. But I wonder.


How would we ever have learned about the extent of unconstitutional spying on US citizens by the Obama administration if Snowden hadn't decided to be a whistleblower?

IMHO, I hope when President Clinton takes office n 2017 she gives Snowden a pardon. :idea:
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 20 Mar 2014, 16:45:32

Plantagenet wrote:How would we ever have learned about the extent of unconstitutional spying on US citizens by the Obama administration if Snowden hadn't decided to be a whistleblower?

IMHO, I hope when President Clinton takes office n 2017 she gives Snowden a pardon. :idea:


I just addressed that in my edit.. it's just a moral question.. you don't aid and abed "the enemy" no matter what your issue is (and I hate to say Russia is that quite yet, but we don't know).

If it comes down to that choice, then a patriot should do his time in jail or go on the run, but you don't put your country in even more danger to supposedly save it. He could have released that info here in the states and gone to trial. It really all comes down to whether we've got a hostile situation with Russia, and what Snowden gave them.

I agree with you the US should have cut a deal with him already -- get him out of Russia, couple years prison time and that would be fair.

Months ago, I would have said I hoped for a pardon for him too Plant, but I don't know now. Why didn't Snowden leak EVERYTHING that was relevant right away. Why is the leaking going to start up again, apparently part of the Russian chess game now????

He said he wasn't going to leak anymore, Putin gave him asylum on that condition too, now apparently Putin has changed his mind and Snowden has too. So does that mean Russian intel is now using him? And now I really do wonder, what all did Snowden take with him? Spying scandal stuff, okay, but is it any other critical secrets / aid to Russia?
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 20 Mar 2014, 16:57:58

Sixstrings wrote:. it's just a moral question.. you don't aid and abed "the enemy" no matter what your issue is (and I hate to say Russia is that quite yet, but we don't know).


Russia just started Cold War II but a year ago Russia supposedly was our friend. The Obama Administration believed they had "resert" things so Russia was our friend.

You can hardly blame Snowden for not figuring out something that even the folks in the White House got wrong.
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 20 Mar 2014, 17:10:16

Treason against the United States, as defined in Article III Section 3 of the Constitution:

To avoid the abuses of the English law (including executions by Henry VIII of those who criticized his repeated marriages), treason was specifically defined in the United States Constitution, the only crime so defined. Article III Section 3 delineates treason as follows:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#Federal


Assuming Russia DOES become an actively hostile government screwing with the United States on multiple levels, then one could say what Snowden is doing at this point is giving "aid and comfort" to that government. If Russian intel is controlling him now, then Snowden has become an aid to them. That's treason, according to the Constitution.
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 20 Mar 2014, 17:24:59

Plantagenet wrote:Russia just started Cold War II but a year ago Russia supposedly was our friend. The Obama Administration believed they had "resert" things so Russia was our friend.

You can hardly blame Snowden for not figuring out something that even the folks in the White House got wrong.


I don't really know what's going on, I'm just connecting the dots.

Putin had told him not to leak anymore, that was the condition of the asylum.

Therefore,

Logically if he is going to leak again then Putin must have now approved that. Next, it's not a far logical leap to assume Russian intel is just controlling him.

If I were in this situation -- I'd go on the run in Russia and get out before I'd aid and abed the other side in a brewing conflict.

But that's just me. Maybe I'm different. If that's what's going on, could he have at least let a US diplomat know about it? That the Russians are going to use him??? If so, our gov should have just given him immunity and / or a year in prison. Anyone can do a year -- he did break an oath, we can't have everyone leaking EVERYTHING just to publicize one important issue and apparently Snowden took a lot with him other than the specific spying stuff.

I'm still glad Snowden did what he did, it's just that I cannot cheer him on now if it has all become a game of Russian chess and its another tool used against my country.

P.S. ASSUMING Snowden has gone Tokyo Rose, and assuming he's controlled by Russian intel, then all I'm saying is to just remember that fact is all.

But it doesn't detract from this issue in general. We can have our debate about it over here, in Congress and amongst ourselves, as Snowden continues to leak -- but view him askance and I for one won't be applauding him -- and we can only hope he hasn't handed over anything that really matters for national security.

At the end of the day, it's not the NSA that could ICBM you.

And this whole debate on this spying is the slippery slope, nobody has actually used tapes from it of someone cheating on their taxes to convict them in court. Putin's Russia is not the savior here, of our democracy.
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 23 Mar 2014, 08:04:25

Hm, yup I called it right, look what Snowden releases now:



Now just think, what are the odds of that, why this juicy bit about China at this particular point in time?

Could it be that Russian intel is using Snowden at this point, and this is right out of the KGB playbook to divide allies and to agitate the Chinese against the US? Come to think of it, was Russia using him all along and sowing discord between allies and all that trouble caused with the Germans and the US?

I still care about this issue in general but this is just irking me, WHAT IS SNOWDEN HOLDING ONTO that Putin will cleverly USE AS HE SEES FIT against the US in a new cold war? This is JUST LIKE those tapes of US diplomats getting released at just the right time.

Don't you guys see that? That maybe you agree with him, but honestly here, if he was just a concerned citizen and patriot, he could have released everything at once but now it's a drip-drip that just happens to benefit Putin at just the right moments.

If Snowden is playing Tokyo Rose to benefit Putin then that's crossed the line don't you think?
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 23 Mar 2014, 09:26:15

Are you an idiot? A whistleblower is neither responsible for the sins of his master or the consequences of them being revealed. Do a little reading on whistleblower protection legislation, policies and procedures. Ignoramous might be more apt.
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Re: "Robot" Snowden promises more US spying revelations

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 23 Mar 2014, 15:45:08

SeaGypsy wrote:Are you an idiot? A whistleblower is neither responsible for the sins of his master or the consequences of them being revealed. Do a little reading on whistleblower protection legislation, policies and procedures. Ignoramous might be more apt.


I strains credulity to think that this is coincidental -- that Snowden, in hiding under Russian protection, all on his own without Russian intel direction just happens to pick to pick this bit about China at this point in time.

I doubt it's coincidental that what Snowden leaks seems to be helpful to Russia, leaked at just the right time. We'll see how it develops and how he handles further leaks and if his topics of interest continue to mesh with Russian intel aims. That's not a whistleblower SG, that's a spy.

We're all free to have our opinions, and it's just mine that if Snowden is working with Russian intel against the US it ought to sicken him to his stomach as much or more than this NSA issue. I don't get it, I don't see how any American could do it, but whatever that just me.

If it were about the whistleblowing, THEN WHY HELP A FOREIGN INTEL, why become a TOOL of an adversarial regime -- a whistleblower is supposed to be responsible. You don't go do something else that's just as wrong and that's somehow okay because you're "whistleblowing."
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