[DesuMaiden]

I am agnostic. I believe that it is possible that some higher power exists, but I have no reason to believe that it exists. I don't believe in monotheism (i.e. Islam and Christianity) because it is more than OBVIOUS they are man-made doctrines. It is more than obvious that the Koran and Bible are not divinely-inspired. The Koran and Bible are literally full of contradictions and errors that makes it more than obvious that they are not divinely-inspired. To believe that Islam, Christianity or whatever religion is divinely-inspired is pretty foolish I must say because it is more than obvious they are all man-made.

I admit I can't prove that there is no god, but I have no reason to believe that an all-power god would actually give a shit about whether I worship him or not.

Also I don't believe in an after-life, because there is no evidence that an afterlife exists. Maybe reincarnation might be true, but I have no reason to believe in a heaven or hell. It is absurd to believe that one can receive infinite reward for finite good deeds. Conversely, it is absurd to believe that one can receive infinite punishment for finite sins.

I think believing in Christianity and Islam is dangerous and unhealthy because they assume that mankind can just dominate the earth and do whatever the **** he pleases to it. Well it is obvious that if you destroy the earth by over-exploiting its natural resources, you will go extinct too. Mankind was never designed by a "god" to dominate nature because the god of Christianity and Islam is imaginary. Mankind can only survive if he lives in harmony with nature and remains in balance with nature. Rather than destroying nature for his own selffish pleasures. Mankind was also not designed to become fruitful and plentiful and overpopulate the Earth because by overpopulating the Earth, you will eventually end up destroying yourself too. That's becoming more and more clear too. It is typically religious idiots who deny in overpopulation and don't believe in birth control because they believe in their bullshit religious book's doctrine of "be fruitful and multiply" which was mentioned in the Genesis.

My beliefs would be considered heretical in some countries, but I strongly believe Islam and Christianity are just a bunch of **** bullshit. Anyone who believes in it should seriously get their head's checked.

[SeaGypsy]

You can't call islam & Christianity bullshit w/o calling Judaism bullshit, & while at it you may as we'll put up every other doctrine conceived throughout history. Maybe go and read Timothy Leary's "Politics of Ecstasy", pretty good for someone struggling with the paradox of "inventing your own religion & making sure it grows every day".

[DesuMaiden]

You can't call islam & Christianity bullshit w/o calling Judaism bullshit, & while at it you may as we'll put up every other doctrine conceived throughout history. Maybe go and read Timothy Leary's "Politics of Ecstasy", pretty good for someone struggling with the paradox of "inventing your own religion & making sure it grows every day".

I mean there could be a god out there, but there is no way in hell a truly omnipotent being would be as incompetent as the god described in the Bible and Koran lol.

[Sixstrings]

I'm basically an atheist that can't quite shake his core Christianity, so I suppose that makes me a Christian.

I can't say I'm an agnostic either.

I don't read the Bible and have only prayed a few times. I figure God is a bit busy to worry about my little problems throughout the day, so why bother him.

I like Zen buddhism a lot and used to have a shelf full of zen books. And I like the dalai lama, and Theravada buddhism and the original buddha. I used to have a book that compared the sayings and teaching of Buddha to things Christ said, and you'd be surprised how many are the same.

Overall, I think Buddhism is the best religion of the lot. Quantum mechanics and string theory actually line up with buddhist thinking.

I think people get too wound up in tiny little issues and obsess on things that Christ never even talked about, in his ministry. Yet they ignore what he did talk so much about.

I like Pope Francis a lot, there's a good man. I like the Dalai Lama.

I think people have a simplistic understanding of "heaven" and "hell." They aren't meant as literal places. "Hell" is just separation from God.

I think people miss a lot of good messages about Christianity, by being so wound up in literalism.

I like those gnostic Christians, that the council of nicea banned.

I'm not catholic, but I like midnight mass on christmas eve.

I accept evolution as self-evident fact, and find it fascinating.

I don't believe in "intelligent deisgn" -- but I wonder about what Aristotle wondered about, who or what that "unmoved mover" is. how can something just be a cycle, no beginning? And even if there were a "God" then what created "God?"

The universe is so darn interesting, there is clearly some kind of system going on here, it's almost as if we are individual cells wondering what it all means -- cells that have no idea they are part of organs, and then a body and a larger organism.

[Ibon]

It seems to be a ubiquitous aspect of all human cultures to create a religious narrative to explain the dilemma of being a sentient mortal. We probably have more atheists and agnostics today than at any other time but I doubt seriously than we could eliminate religious beliefs from modern human cultures.
I also don't think a world full of atheists would be necessarily good for the planet. We do require a spiritual framework and narrative for protecting our planet and our place in it.

Our best hope is that consequences of overshoot instill religious tabus about breeding and consuming beyond carrying capacity. For such tabus and commandments to be adapted requires that the consequences of overshoot produce the severe biblical famines, disease and floods that will frame these new commandments. To expect humans to adapt religious principals of sustainability without these events seems delusional.

[Newfie]

Atheist.

Most common religion today in the USA is Consummerism derived from
Capitalism. Think Adam Smith and the Invisible Hand.

[Timo]

I'm a realist.

There's a scientific explanation for everything. We obviously don't have answers for everything, but that lapse in time to answer those questions is not justification for belief in a mythical being that caused a mystery to be as-yet unexplained. Faith serves a purpose to provide inner strength to people who need something else to fill the gaps in the unexplained mysteries of life. I see nothing wrong with people having faith in whatever fairy they believe in. My problem stems from a few of these people wanting to declare their faith as the law for everyone. If no organize religion existed to day, and suddenly someone invented Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or Pastafarianism, the entire world would laugh at them for being delusional. Religions develop from people's vulnerabilities. If faith fills a void in someones psyche, so be it, but don't codify your personal fantasies to make me suffer from your delusions. Laws for everyone should be based on reality, not faith-based fantasy.

[Ibon]

If faith fills a void in someones psyche, so be it, but don't codify your personal fantasies to make me suffer from your delusions. Laws for everyone should be based on reality, not faith-based fantasy.

I agree with your post. To think about this further, how will reality based events become codified in new religions or in modifying existing ones? Since religion is really about the conundrum of our mortal existence, and since the consequences of overshoot are actually existential in nature, as in creating life threatening events, one can then conclude that adapting tabus and commandments to prevent this from continuing or happening again may not be that far fetched.

The more that faith can be based on reality the better. There may be a silver lining in the consequences coming our way in the 21st century in how this might mold religious thought.

[Timo]

Ibon, i remember some years back learning that India legally recognizes several hundred different religions, and every single day of the year is a religious holiday for at least one of those religions. To answer your query on how we accommodate religions and government in the future, i have no effing clue. My father was a minister. He's not a minister any longer because he's seen the reality of organized religion. Religion is a very profitable business, and biblical teachings are much less important than increasing the size of the herd. Religions are also used as the basis for wars, and death and destruction. I live my life completely without any religion, and i'm one of the most ethically-based people i know, and that includes my father. I follow much of what the Bible says, not because it is the word of some mythical deity, but because i honestly believe several of its directives are the best way forward for humanity, as a whole. I could probably also say the same thing about much of what's in the Koran. I haven't studied Budhism much, but i also have a whole lot of respect for the Dalai Lama.

One thing i would like to try, though, is to find my spirit guide by drinking that cactus tea down in the Arizona desert. I doubt it would enlighten me in any way, but it could be kind of fun. Or not.

[Henriksson]

Everybody has idiosyncrasies, some are religious, some masturbate to garden gnomes. It's OK to have those thoughts, but it's not something one discusses in polite company.

Most common religion today in the USA is Consummerism derived from
Capitalism. Think Adam Smith and the Invisible Hand.

^On the list of irrational beliefs causing harm, I wouldn't rate religion all that high.

[fjciv]

I always like to start from the earliest use of the word that I'm looking at. If possible.
for example: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back
the beginning
if it gets changed i try to find out when and why and by who
and that helps me to form useful questions
as far as sharing my thoughts
you have to look at where i have been and the foundations i use to get an understanding of the words i use
so i have a developing view a lot of the time

after you have read this
you don"t have to ask me what my opinion is
do you?

[aldente]

Got my hand on a Koran last week the first time and I was stunningly surprised about the fact that it does not differ from all the "enchilada" that the jews hold (the Tora is the old testament in the first place - I never knew that) - and when you read the first couple "Suras" in the Koran - it is even more of the same -
Abraham - Moses- Jesus, his mother Mary etc - no wonder theses are all called the "Abrahamic" religions.

Now there is a tank manufacturer somewhere in the US that produces Abraham (Abram in short) tanks - can someone do some research please?!

A religious tank???

Fact is - the Western World is drowning in depression - most every individual is affected by this virus (shall we call it that - any other suggestions))

Without depression no tanks!

Conclusion: We all are depressed in this world.

The few lucky ones that still have the ability to operate "somewhat normal" are considered free-

The rest is subject to the secondary - or even tertiary catchwebs that "religion" is. - catchwebs !

[MonteQuest]

Faith is believing what you know ain't so." -Mark Twain?

Read Letters from the Earth by Twain.

This is a strange place, and extraordinary place, and interesting. There is nothing resembling it at home. The people are all insane, the other animals are all insane, the earth is insane, Nature itself is insane. Man is a marvelous curiosity. When he is at his very very best he is a sort of low grade nickel-plated angel; at is worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm. Yet he blandly and in all sincerity calls himself the "noblest work of God." This is the truth I am telling you. And this is not a new idea with him, he has talked it through all the ages, and believed it. Believed it, and found nobody among all his race to laugh at it.

Moreover -- if I may put another strain upon you -- he thinks he is the Creator's pet. He believes the Creator is proud of him; he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes, and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to Him, and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea? Fills his prayers with crude and bald and florid flatteries of Him, and thinks He sits and purrs over these extravagancies and enjoys them. He prays for help, and favor, and protection, every day; and does it with hopefulness and confidence, too, although no prayer of his has ever been answered. The daily affront, the daily defeat, do not discourage him, he goes on praying just the same. There is something almost fine about this perseverance. I must put one more strain upon you: he thinks he is going to heaven!

He has salaried teachers who tell him that. They also tell him there is a hell, of everlasting fire, and that he will go to it if he doesn't keep the Commandments. What are Commandments? They are a curiosity. I will tell you about them by and by.

[Sixstrings]

It seems to be a ubiquitous aspect of all human cultures to create a religious narrative to explain the dilemma of being a sentient mortal.

Yep, you're right, that's what started it to begin with.

We know for sure that spirituality and religion is a product of evolution, and it is apparently conducive to the species' survival (or was, when it first evolved).

Some of the oldest homo sapien graves have evidence for spirituality and belief in an afterlife, with tools and charms and clothes packed into the grave, as if the deceased will need them in some other place.

I think what started it is just sentience -- no other animal is as sentient and self-aware as we are, so imagine those early homo sapiens with their new big brains and then they see their family members just dying and they realize they will too one day.

Imagine how depressing that sh*t is. And immobilizing. You can't survive if you're depressed that you're gonna die one day, right? So, ergo, it's conducive to survival to get your mind off that sh*t and just believe in an afterlife. Natural selection does not care if heaven is real or not, it only cares that you don't sit around depressed about death and you get out there and survive long enough to have offspring.

We probably have more atheists and agnostics today than at any other time but I doubt seriously than we could eliminate religious beliefs from modern human cultures.

The problem we have now is just that we're stuck with this simplistic old fashioned christianity from pre-science eras and people can't get past Noah's Ark and creationist sillyness and so they discount it all.

People secretly thing it's like believing in santa claus or the easter bunny.

We probably need an evolved christianity to fit modern times, more akin to the ancient gnostic christians, and lose the focus on a "god" that is some guy in the sky that intervenes in your life.

Something more like buddhism, that kind of religion would better serve modern people.

By the way -- I do believe in a sixth sense though, and all that. There's something more to religion than just sentient apes needing to believe in an afterlife. Every ancient culture has its shamen, and spiritual world.

There are some people that have some kind of higher intuition / esp, and these are the priests and shamen in a tribe.

And if you want to get mystical -- quantum mechanics and string theory are about as far out and msytical as it gets. It matches up with buddhism, how all things are one and connected. If you break an atom up to its smaller parts and put them at opposite sides of the universe, and poke one part, the other parts would vibrate in resonance.

So how cool is that. There really is some larger framework connecting everything, that we do not understand as yet.

Lastly, at the end of the day, just the "golden rule" message from christianity and judaism is a good thing, and buddhism is very focused on that. Right living. Doing the right thing. Treating the other as you would yourself. These are all good for society. People really can get "wicked" with how they live their lives. I don't like bible thumpers, but there's a limit you know?

Atheists can have morality too, but the problem there is that there is no one philosophy they are all agreeing on, necessarily. It is helpful to have some kind of moral foundation that everyone agrees on, whether that is christianity or buddhist, etc.

The buddha taught very common sense useful things, like how anything in excess is bad, everything in moderation, and how to detach when you need to, how to accept things in life and accept impermanence, and that others are not different from you and to have compassion. That's all really good stuff. The best of christianity teaches the same values, too.

[ralfy]

The most dominant religions are secular ones, especially capitalism. Those together with realpolitik likely influence policies concerning resource use, population, etc.

[Ibon]

Atheists can have morality too, but the problem there is that there is no one philosophy they are all agreeing on, necessarily. It is helpful to have some kind of moral foundation that everyone agrees on, whether that is christianity or buddhist, etc.

Good post Six. There may not be a unifying philosophy at this time that binds atheists and the religious but I suspect the consequences of overshoot are going to be powerful catalysts that will draw the human race into a tight squeeze that will challenge what we believe. Since these consequences are going to be witnessed by all of mankind they will have a unifying power. It is easy to conclude that these consequences will bring out greed and war and even cannibalism. It is harder to conclude that these very constraints could unify us. I am betting that the outcome will be a messy combination of both and that we will have a more unified philosophy that will put mother earth at the center. She is going to demand this with her consequences.

I say this not from religious sentiments but from the empirical evidence I see of this curious attribute humans have toward cultural adaptation. I think we will be culturally molded by the consequences of overshoot in ways that will make the surviving culture unrecognizable. That is if we don't go extinct. All species do one day and humans are no exception. Nobody knows.

[Keith_McClary]

Most common religion today in the USA is Consummerism derived from
Capitalism. Think Adam Smith and the Invisible Hand.

Techno-Cornucopianism. The Tech Gods will provide ever increasing Manna. Probably derived from earlier religions:
"An edible substance that, according to the Bible and the Quran, God provided for the Israelites during their travels in the desert."

And the Tech Gods don't even require prayer or sacrifice.

As a natural food substance, manna would produce waste products; but in classical rabbinical literature, as a supernatural substance, it was held that manna produced no waste, resulting in no defecation among the Israelites until several decades later, when the manna had ceased to fall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna#Use_and_function

[Plantagenet]

It seems to be a ubiquitous aspect of all human cultures to create a religious narrative to explain the dilemma of being a sentient mortal.

Yup.

Its pretty hard to find an atheistic society or culture. Even Marxist-Leninist communism, which tried to kill all religious thought, found that it couldn't stamp out religion. Four generations of Russian lived in an officially atheistic society, and yet many people still intrinsically believed in some kind of god.

Where does this religious feeling come from? Freud used the term "oceanic feeling" to describe the religious impulse that people seem to have. AND Freud had a psychoanalytic reason why people have these religious feelings. Basically, religion is the subconscious desire to suck at mommy's breast:

"Freud argues that the "oceanic feeling" ... is the preserved "primitive ego-feeling" from infancy. The primitive ego-feeling precedes the creation of the ego and exists up until the mother ceases breastfeeding. Prior to this, the infant is regularly breastfed in response to its crying and has no concept that the breast does not belong to it. Therefore, the infant has no concept of a "self" or, rather, considers the breast to be part of itself. Freud argues that those experiencing an oceanic feeling as an adult are actually experiencing a preserved primitive ego-feeling. The ego, in contrast, comes into existence when the breast is taken away, and involves the infant's recognition that it is separate from the mother's breast, and therefore, that other persons exist. Freud argues that it would not necessarily contradict psychoanalytical theory for this primary ego-feeling to coexist along with the ego in some people. The main argument for this is that psychoanalytical theory holds that all thoughts are preserved in a conservation of psychic energy. Therefore, the "oceanic feeling" described as a oneness with the world or a limitlessness is simply a description of the feeling the infant has before it learns there are other persons in the world."

----from Wikipedia "Oceanic Feeling"


The origin of all religious feelings

[Ibon]

Where does this religious feeling come from? Freud used the term "oceanic feeling" to describe the religious impulse that people seem to have. AND Freud had a psychoanalytic reason why people have these religious feelings. Basically, religion is the subconscious desire to suck at mommy's breast:

Plant, this attempt to understand the religious impulse analytically with logic and reason is fine up to a point. But reason and logic and psychoanalysis have a hard time explaining love, reverence, a sense of wonder, the deep integrated feeling you get in wilderness, etc. etc.

There is a lot we still do not know. And I do believe that reason and logic can only take you so far in understanding some of the mysteries that remain unexplained. I don't think solving these mysteries lies in science developing instruments to measure them.

[Timo]

There is a lot we still do not know. And I do believe that reason and logic can only take you so far in understanding some of the mysteries that remain unexplained. I don't think solving these mysteries lies in science developing instruments to measure them.

Is solving these mysteries even necessary? If so, why?