[onlooker]

I am just posting this because it truly intrigues me how all of us here on this site are dealing with the rather unpleasant set of circumstances we find ourselves in collectively. I for one am not fearful of death though the thought of extreme pain is unsettling. In the more encompassing view, I am in a way glad if their was a widespread culling of the population as I see needless suffering and deprivation among many people on this planet. I do hold out hope but not for our own remediation but rather assistance from other-worldly beings. Finally, I have a deep conviction in a Supreme Being who is benevolent as such I can see the positive in most matters. So I am wondering how others are dealing with the naked truth of our predicament?

[Newfie]

Confirmed atheist. I can't see why any intelligent off world species would intervene in this mess. I'm scared of pain, and death.

I'm trying to live my life in a pleasant way. My preps result in an enjoyable enterprise that I want to do more of. I try to imagine myself as an intelligent off worlder, so as to gain some perspective. But it can be a challange to not let the bastards get you down. Especially knowing we are all part of the bastards, self included. It helps to be able to hold inconsistencies in your mind. Ibon has a lot to offer along these lines.

[Ibon]

Let's take two of your statements and see where that leads us.

I am in a way glad if their was a widespread culling of the population as I see needless suffering and deprivation among many people on this planet.

I have a deep conviction in a Supreme Being who is benevolent as such I can see the positive in most matters.

Can we make the Overshoot Predator the basis for a new spirituality? That has been a question I raised since I started the thread worshipping-the-overshoot-predator-t68063.html

[onlooker]

I am going right now Ibon to review your initial posts on that thread. thanks for the reply.

[Ibon]

Confirmed atheist. I can't see why any intelligent off world species would intervene in this mess. I'm scared of pain, and death.

If we move away from the big daddy in the sky monotheism for just a moment and turn toward a religiosity that sees our biosphere and natural ecosystems representing something holy and to be revered, would you align yourself with this? Knowing you a little I am also referring to that sense of wonder out on your boat when the wind, clouds, waves and light seem to awaken something of the divine within?

I don't want to single you out Newfie I am just curious to what degree a sense of spirituality can be cultivated to those of us who are quite deeply embedded in the sciences and knowing about human overshoot.

Related question, beyond capitalism and the laws of biology that dictate that an organism will exceed his carrying capacity when confronted with a surplus, do you think that the materialistic way we relate to our biosphere and fellow flora and fauna represent ultimately another source of our predicament?

[onlooker]

Wonderful post Ibon, also thanks Newfie for the reply. Well I can say that the term is familiar as an author named William Catton wrote two books relating to the theme of Overshoot. I hope that humanity would worship the Overshoot Predator as their is no other way to live within a limited closed system that the Earth provides us. Certainly, materialism as an Ethics is not sustainable. To understand nature we have to understand limits. I am not a biologist but certainly nature seems to be a finely tuned systems of check and balances. Predator and Prey, interdependence etc. We will either emerge from this bottleneck (see Catton) with a much more farsighted wisdom about LIMITS or we will succumb to the Overshoot Predator

[Ibon]

We will either emerge from this bottleneck (see Catton) with a much more farsighted wisdom about LIMITS or we will succumb to the Overshoot Predator

The Overshoot Predator is necessary to change us from a rogue parasite to a self regulating species. To have that farsighted wisdom regarding limits requires a cultural change. That is where the worship part comes in. Of course The Overshoot Predator alone is not worshiped, but as part of the reverence to our natural world he has a seat close to the head of the table.

[MonteQuest]

Related question, beyond capitalism and the laws of biology that dictate that an organism will exceed his carrying capacity when confronted with a surplus, do you think that the materialistic way we relate to our biosphere and fellow flora and fauna represent ultimately another source of our predicament?

For me, of course it does. Hardin wrote eloquently about it in the Tragedy of the Commons, whereby "individuals acting independently and rationally according to each one's self-interest, behave contrary to the whole group's long-term best interests by depleting some common resource."

Of course, there has been many instances where this was not the case, but those are cases of primitive cultures practicing hunter-gatherer methods that required husbandry of the available resources for survival.

Divorcing ourselves from Nature has been a lot of our undoing.

[Quinny]

Was Pol Pot an overshoot predator?

[Newfie]

ALL HAIL ZARDOZ!

[Subjectivist]

ALL HAIL ZARDOZ!

He used to be one of my favorite posters around here, whatever happened to him anyhow!

[Newfie]

Belief in a supreme being is not a requisite for being a religion. Actually, in the USA, it is the IRS that defines what is and is not a religion.

Ethical Humanism is a non-theistic religion, you can believe in any or no supreme being. That said most are agnostics or atheists. It believes that our fate rests with our own actions. If you believe prayer will bring intervention by a supreme being, you are in the wrong church. If you don't you may find a home in Ethical Humanism.

I have a history there and find the philosophy compatible. I think there are problems in execution due to the demographic. Far to many adherents are metropolitan types without sufficient ties to nature, although you would be hard pressed to convince them of that. They just don't have the exposure to the natural wold. Many are cliff dwellers having spent their entire lives in apts. and condos. Thus, IMHO, they tend to be removed from nature.

Nothing wrong with the general philosophy, it's expression is colored by the culture.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_movement

http://aeu.org

[Newfie]

ALL HAIL ZARDOZ!

He used to be one of my favorite posters around here, whatever happened to him anyhow!

Sean Connery was here?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zardoz

(Don't know, so many come and go)

[MonteQuest]

I am just posting this because it truly intrigues me how all of us here on this site are dealing with the rather unpleasant set of circumstances we find ourselves in collectively.

Myself, this predicament is not new. I have had a sense about since I was a child. In 1972, after reading Limits to Growth, I could finally put my finger on the "disturbance within the force." I became involved with many environmental groups over the years, and finally became a National Park Ranger to be on the front lines of defense of our most pristine wilderness areas.

My passion for these efforts still exists, but any optimism I once had, has given way to realism.

There is no technofix. Become debt free, isolated from the masses, and strive to be as self-sufficient as you can.

Be happy, see the world, and may the best man win.

[Subjectivist]

ALL HAIL ZARDOZ!

He used to be one of my favorite posters around here, whatever happened to him anyhow!

Sean Connery was here?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zardoz

(Don't know, so many come and go)

search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=Zardoz&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

zardoz-u4364.html

[Newfie]

Ibon,

Ethical Humanisim differs from other forms of Humanisim in that it finds a way to retain the spiritual and ritualistic part of religion while rejecting the supernatural. Thus you have a bunch of agnostics and athesits who get together to celebrate the traditional holidays, just with different names...spring equinox for Easter, solstice for Christmas. We do weddings, memorial services, and "naming" ceremonies in lieu of Christening.

I suspect the OP. Would put them into apoplectic shock. Smart folks but only slightly more able to accept our fate than any other group of similar demographic. I would say their image of my persona is "doomy loony." I've given some talks there, hard to get traction even there.

[Ibon]

It is a quiet time of year here at Mount Totumas, we don't get many tourists. I am alone at the moment and I am gazing out a window with an uninterrupted view of unbroken forest into La Amistad National Park that is 600,000 hectares in total (about 1.5 million acres). A little wind, otherwise silent. Not many have this privilege. I know that. Wilderness dwarfs man here above 1900m in this little corner of the world. Why do I mention this?

Newfie mentioned his cliff dwelling urban friends. The fate of the vast majority of humans living in urban areas and globally this trend continues at an ever accelerated pace.

There is a profound stillness that happens when you are in nature and away from the interference of human landscapes. There is not enough of these spaces remaining to re acquaint humans with what this stillness and silence is really all about. The immensity of the heavens at night provide the same sense of silent awe at how divine our universe is and yet sadly artificial lighting in urban areas does not allow urban dwellers this reminder.

Human urban landscapes have created their own human habitat and culture. Add to this the digital media that is creating a whole other layer of abstraction from nature to the point that many young people are tethered to their digital landscapes while moving fully within human artificial landscapes.

If you have ever been in the room during a birth of a child or if you have ever been in a room as a loved one has died there is something remarkable about these moments. The stillness and silence that descends at birth and death is exactly the same as the stillness and silence you find in wilderness. This stillness is what happens when you drop into existence. Most of us no longer understand this and we fill our time with endless man made distractions.

The consequences that will come at an accelerated pace will have the same impact on us as when you are in wilderness or when you witness birth and death. Once The Big Squeeze starts to unravel all of this complexity and noise there is going to open the first cracks once again of this stillness. For those of us who remain to see this. There will be an even more profound stillness for those who get squeezed out ( a little black humor).

We are nearing the end game of this onslaught on our planet, on our fellow flora and fauna. Like the way the moon waxes and wanes and tides go in and out, there is going to be very soon a reversal and a shift. Nature is going to start to reclaim her territory faster than we are going to be able to degrade her. Thanks to The Overshoot Predator.

When this starts the immense stillness and silence that is inherent in wilderness will start to intrude once again onto the human psyche. Mother Earth will show us that this complex industrial civilization was all along this very thin veneer that existed in a very narrow world of distractions and shallowness. All along wilderness and Mother Earth was all around us but we allowed ourselves the hypnosis of technology and allowed ourselves to be satisfied as narcissistic self contained individuals.

How to confront our situation Onlooker asks in this thread? For me I already have one foot in the door anticipating these upcoming consequences and I feel a profound sense of relief that humans are reaching the end of the road of their parasitic relationship with our planet.

Montequest mentioned as a young man he got an insight about "this disturbance within the force". I can't speak for him and I welcome him to elaborate if he likes but for me this was also a very clear perception. A psychologist might say that this is just a projection, that this disturbance you say is out there is just inside yourself as you try to process the environmental degradation you are seeing.

I disagree with Mr. psychologist. This is not a projection. This is a very tangible and real phenomenon.

When the tipping point does really start and this juggernaut of consuming our planet passes its peak, this disturbance is going to abate and collectively we are going to feel it. We are going to witness cracks opening that are going to break our hypnosis.

We do project a dark future based on this place here and now where we are still plundering at full speed.

I would offer this perspective. Perhaps the darkest place is where we now stand, deeply distracted and having lost contact with an immense and glorious stillness and silence that is inherent when one is in nature, in the field of existence, in the room of birth and death, in the wind that moves the tree tops.

[Ibon]

Ibon, the Overshoot Predator looks like the Indian Goddess Kali?

Like Kali The Overshoot Predator is Fire in a mature Jack Pine boreal forest. She burns but her fire is needed to start a new generation

------------------------

Jack Pine often forms pure stands on sandy or rocky soil. It is fire-adapted to stand-replacing fires, with the cones remaining closed for many years, until a forest fire kills the mature trees and opens the cones, reseeding the burnt ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_pine

[Ibon]

Was Pol Pot an overshoot predator?

Pol Pot was a minnow in comparison.