[dohboi]

As many of you know, and other can learn by viewing the links below, Kevin Anderson and others have pointed out that we need to reduce our GW impacts by at least 10% a year starting now (or actually a couple years ago) to have even a slight chance of averting 2 degrees increase in global temperatures, which of course is far too high anyway.

With this in mind, my daughter and I have decided to move from our current vegetarianism (which she was much more consistent in than I) to becoming (mostly) vegan.

I thought we should have a thread where people talk about what they may be willing to do at whatever level that would have some possibility of having an effect on the livability of the planet going forward.

If people who are eager to pour cold water over the whole idea wouldn't mind waiting a bit for those of us who do plan to do something have a chance to say so, that would be appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RInrvSjW90U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... umLH9kOpOI

[onlooker]

Dohboi, you would have asked this same question 5 years ago and my answer would have been whatever I can within my budget, wherewithal and opportunity. Now at this point I say nothing. The reason is simple I first do not believe we can ourselves - humanity no longer control global warming. Second and more importantly, I believe short of ET coming down to assist us, nothing can prevent our doom in terms of die-off. So a reasonable conclusion is that it is better that this die-off occur sooner rather then later, so that we humans can stop our relentless assault on the Earth and allow some measure of habitability to endure so that whatever humans persist can restart some measure of society and community. Finally, what I or my girlfriend do or do not will ultimately have little impact on the course of events. That is my honest answer

[dohboi]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, onlooker.

"Within my budget"

Why do you think living lighter on the earth requires a big budget? Probably because 'green' has become a commodity like everything else, to be sold to the highest bidder. But that of course is a gross distortion. Probably working to live even better within your means will be the best thing for you and for the world.

[Kylon]

The world at this point is doomed from a global warming perspective.


Furthermore, even if you reduce your consumption, someone else will increase theirs.


The only long term solution, is for those who have the means, intelligence and the will, to build some sort of "seed" for humanity and life to restablish itself after humanity destroys the biosphere.

When people run out of oil, they are going to turn to the trees, the plants, the forest, the plains, the oceans and to every living thing that occupies this world, and use it as a food/fuel source.

When they run out of that...

Well it's not pleasant to think about.

The best solution individuals can think of is to figure out how to build a state after collapse. How to build civilization after depopulation. How to rebuild the biosphere after the planet as been wasted. Then act accordingly to build a seed, an Ark, if you will, containing knowledge, technology, infrastructure/capital, and a library of plants and a zoo of animals to rebuild and repopulate the world. This should be combined with a large number of specialist in all fields related to the various areas required for survival and development of civilization.

I think some parts of the world will still be habitable, possibly Siberia, Northern Canada, possibly Antartica, Alaska and Scandinavia.


That's my opinion.

[AndyA]

Well at least burning trees is environmentally friendly. 100 million Bison used to live sustainably on the great plains, plus about a billion or so birds, I think we can grow enough meat to eat without destroying the planet if we want to.

I'm going to plant a few more trees to offset my pollution, that's about it for now.

[careinke]

I am going to add more animals to my systems. Trying to build sustainable systems without animals in it is extremely hard. Nature does not really work very well without animals, besides they taste great.

[dohboi]

Kylon, yes, the world we inherited we have now broken in fundamental ways.
--The oceans are acidifying faster than at any time in the last 200 million years or more.
--The Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets are in terminal collapse--nothing will now stop them from melting completely into the see, drowning most coastal cities and provinces.
--Arctic sea ice is also in rapid terminal decline, likely to be gone in years to (at most) a very few decades.
--This will destabilize subsea permafrost and clathrates as well as upending global climate regimes.
--Permafrost is becoming permamelt; along with clathrates and carbon loss from other soils and flora, this represents a set of major carbon feedbacks which will further lock in future CO2 rise.
--Two degrees C is now pretty well locked in from what we have already emitted. (We are probably nearly there already, but we are being temporarily shielded from it by aerosols from dirty coal plants.)
--Four is almost certainly on the way, and that is not likely to be a stable state; instead, we will tip into a hot-house world from there.
--Life on the planet, already in the sixth great mass extinction, will probably be driven further toward a Great Dying to rival the very worst mass extinctions since the planet evolved complex life.
...

Yes, I know all these things. We have broken the world.

But we can now decide whether to use that as an excuse to break it even faster and further, to pulverize it quickly into smithereens; or to give it a chance to be less than ultimately pulverized, and to give any unknown unknown negative feedback that might be lurking in the wings a chance to modify our outrages on the planet.

The excuse that "if I don't do it, somebody else will" is quite a lame one.

I do encourage you to plants seeds for survival, but that does not necessarily require a lifestyle that is grossly out of touch with the actual limits of the carrying capacity of the planet. And future generations, if there are any, will not likely thank you wildly for leaving clues for survival on a planet you did nothing to at least slow down the annihilation of.

[dohboi]

On the animals thing--I did not say that everyone has to do it my way.

If you can find a way to live on bison and other sustainably raised livestock and poultry, more power to you. But there is simply no way at this point that most of the 7 billion people in the world can live on a high meat diet, however sustainably grown, and still have a viable planet.

If you do choose to go the meat/dairy route, you should be even more thankful to me for leaving more for you!

Andy, thank for planning to plant some trees. It's generally a good thing to do anyway. But if you are at a latitude that regularly gets snow, it will likely add to net local warming due to albedo shift in winter.

So, just curious--for those that accept my list, is there no one who, faced with these multiple global catastrophes, is willing to even consider making some lifestyle or other change that they think, if widely adopted, might, just might, lessen the fury of the calamities that are already starting to rain down upon our heads and that will make the world a living (and dying) hell for generations now and soon to be alive?

Or have you all managed to rationalize your way out of taking even a smidgen of responsibility?

[careinke]

So, just curious--for those that accept my list, is there no one who, faced with these multiple global catastrophes, is willing to even consider making some lifestyle or other change that they think, if widely adopted, might, just might, lessen the fury of the calamities that are already starting to rain down upon our heads and that will make the world a living (and dying) hell for generations now and soon to be alive?

Or have you all managed to rationalize your way out of taking even a smidgen of responsibility?

I think you may have misconstrued my comments. Just as animals require plants, plants also require animals to survive in a sustainable way. In a natural system you can't have one without the other. That is the way nature is designed.

Now, if you are just talking industrial meat and egg production, I'm with you all the way. Those practices are environmentally disastrous in the not so long run. Plus product is nutritionally deficient because the animals are not being fed correctly (hint cows are not supposed to eat grains).

Now let me ask you, are you eating commercial grains, corn, or soy? By any measure all of those are more environmentally damaging than grass fed beef. Industrial agriculture destroys an inch and a half of topsoil per year, kills the soil that is left, pollutes rivers, and creates large dead zones in the ocean. Not to mention the huge amounts of fossil fuel use with all it's negative consequences.

I and my family have made lots of changes in our lifestyle to lesson our impacts on the environment and prepare for the coming hard times.

We continually try and reduce waste leaving the property by turning any organic waste into soil or heat, and repurposing most inorganic objects. 99% of my garbage is now plastic packaging. We continually work to eliminate even that.

WE use no chemical fertilizers, herbicides, fungicides, insecticides etc (which after six years or so has greatly increased the health and productivity of our land).

We buy mostly used commodities including vehicles and most clothes.

I also enjoy pulling stuff out of the "waste stream" and either repair it for further use, or repurpose it into something else useful.

We barter and trade with others of a like mind for goods and services. Actually it's more of a gift economy. We give most of our surplus to friends and family, and they do the same with us.

I've got most of our extended family gardening to various degrees, plus subscribing to CSA's for fresh local food.

We are making a food forest so future generations will have; food, water, building and textile materials, medicine, and wildlife available to them.

I have also certified one other permaculturist, introduced permaculture to our fruit club, and am working in the community to promote permaculture ethics in the local community.

Still lots more to do, but I think it's a pretty good start.

[PeakOiler]

My 92-mile per working day (5-day work week) round trip commute comes to an end in July!

I'll be retiring from my job!

That will certainly decrease my energy use, even driving a hybrid Honda Insight that still gets over 50 mpg.

I can hardly wait!

[onlooker]

Careinke , if everyone lived like you starting now, maybe we could forestall calamity, alas though I do not see that as feasible. People either do not know how, cannot or simply do not wish to. My praise to you Careinke.

[dohboi]

Thanks for the clarifications, careinke. (Of course, it is technically possible to have animals in the system and not eat them, or do so only rarely.)

Best wishes for the new year. And now, I mostly don't eat commercially grown, poison intensive grain and legumes.

PO, yes, many of us are facing other personal limits that will keep us well ahead of the needed 10% decline for a few years at least.

[onlooker]

Also, since this is New Year plans, my plan is to wish everyone here a happy New Year with lot's of peace in the coming year. I have enjoyed my time here very much and I appreciate the way this website monitors and controls the posts. Best wishes to all

[PeakOiler]

I just finished updating my spreadsheets for gasoline use for the vehicles and electricity for the house. I spent $1,443.99 for 541 gallons of gasoline and $1255.20 for 9,885 kW-hr of electricity in 2014.

My house does not use any natural gas (directly). No fuel oil, LPG, or propane is used for heating, either. (I do have a couple propane tanks for my bbq grill). So the energy expenses given above will essentially be the denominators in the percent calculations at about this time next year.

With my commute coming to an end roughly half-way through the year, I expect at least a 48-49% reduction in my fuel use.

[Paulo1]

Peak Oiler,

re: commute and fuel ussage

I used to commute by bicycle for many years and for the last 6 years had a fifty mile (each way) commute when we moved to the boonies. We used a Yaris which got very good mileage. I retired almost 2 years ago and found a couple of wrinkles in FF reduction. Sick parents, and excuse the wrinkle reference, sometimes requires many trips to town to deal with crises, etc. This is on top of our own sched. Issues that arise never seems to coincide with a shopping day or a dentist appointment.

Our fuel bill is around 30% of what it once was.....sometimes 10% depending on 'isues'. We used to spend $300/month working, and now spend between $60-$120....depending on issues.

One other point, when you live in the boonies you don't 'chase'. A trip to town involves being organized and getting everything you need to get. My friends in town, who you would think used much less fuel than I did when they I commuted, actually spent more due to 'chasing'. Need those hinges, why just scoot down to the hardware store. Out of milk? You get the point.

Enjoy your retirement. I found it hard to adjust at first, but it is quite wonderful when you settle into it. When you formally work all time is directed by circumstances and schedules. When you retire your time is directed by choice. It is quite wonderful. I try and be productive working around our place for 3-4 hours per day. The rest of the time is what I choose to do.

Lately, I have been thinning trees and creating primo elk habitat. When the salmon return I will fish. We garden, etc.

[Paulo1]

excuse the typos/grammar. I have the cold from hell and need more caffeine. I liked TOD edit function that PO.com doesn't have.

[PeakOiler]

Thanks for the encouraging words, Paulo. I know it will be a "sea-change" in my lifestyle. I have a lot of home-improvement projects I will have time to take care of finally. I want to replace windows, insulate the attic walls and floor better, improve my rainwater catchment system, among other things, such as expanding my garden and having more time for gardening efforts, etc.

I'll be 57 March 2nd.

[dohboi]

Thanks for the insights, PO and Paulo. You guys are the greatest.

I'm 57, too, but only semi-retired.

Best wishes for the new year.

[dinopello]

Now, if you are just talking industrial meat and egg production, I'm with you all the way. Those practices are environmentally disastrous in the not so long run. Plus product is nutritionally deficient because the animals are not being fed correctly (hint cows are not supposed to eat grains).

It's just depressing to read about as well. This from today's financial news: More room for chickens means costlier eggs

The new year is expected to bring rising chicken egg prices across the U.S. as California starts requiring farmers to house hens in cages with enough space to move around and stretch their wings.

To comply, farmers have to put fewer hens into each cage or invest in revamped henhouses, passing along the expense to consumers shopping at grocery stores.

Jim Dean, president and CEO of Centrum Valley Farms in Iowa and Ohio, said one of his buildings that holds 1.5 million hens is now about half full to meet California's standards, and another building may have to be completely overhauled.

I'm sure this government imposed regulation will have unintended effects. To cut costs, the industrial egg people will cheapen up in other ways or find loopholes or whatever. It just seems sickening to me that a building will hold 1.5 million animals. I always buy cage-free or whatever the most humanely sounding thing is but I don't really know how those animals were treated. You pretty much have to buy from a farm you have visited to actually know what you are supporting.

I guess there is some small glimmer of hope but it is still hard to confirm.

Starbucks in December said it will eliminate the sale of eggs from caged hens, he said, following the lead of Burger King and Whole Foods.

Then there's the counter arguments

Ken Klippen of the National Association of Egg Farmers said California's egg law, in addition to driving up the cost at the grocery store and putting pressure on egg supplies, will result in more injuries to chickens because housing them in larger pens means they are more likely to run, breaking a leg or wing.

"You're not going to help the chicken," he said. "You're not helping consumers."

[PeakOiler]

Raising chickens is something Ludi, Redstategreen, and Shanymara (and others) encouraged me to try. Perhaps next year I'll have time to build a few chicken tractors…

We'll see. After reading the above post, I have more reason to try it.

After all, chickens do take care of a lot of bugs, (e.g. grasshoppers), things I don't like around my plants. And I like eggs.