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The Real Reason For The Drop?

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 12:10:26

The Real (and Troubling) Reason Behind Lower Oil Prices
Rana Foroohar @RanaForoohar March 10, 2015
It isn't supply and demand, as most people believe

I am obsessed with how the top tier of finance has undermined, rather than fueled, the real economy. In part, that’s because of I’m writing a book about the topic, but also because so many market stories I come across seem to support this notion. The other day, I had lunch with Ruchir Sharma, head of emerging markets for Morgan Stanley Investment Management and chief of macroeconomics for the bank, who posited a fascinating idea: the major fall in oil prices since this summer may be about a shift in trading, rather than a change in the fundamental supply and demand equation. Oil, he says, is now a financial asset as much as a commodity.

The conventional wisdom about the fall in oil prices has been that it’s a result of both slower demand in China, which is in the midst of a slowdown and debt crisis, but also the increase in US shale production and the unwillingness of the Saudis to stop pumping so much oil. The Saudis often cut production in periods of slowing demand, but this time around they have not. This is in part because they are quite happy to put pressure on the Iranians, their sectarian rivals who need a much higher oil price to meet their budgets, as well as the Russians, who likewise are on the wrong side of the sectarian conflict in the Middle East via their support for the Syrian regime.

Sharma rightly points out, though, that supply and demand haven’t changed enough to create a 50% plunge in prices. Meanwhile, the price decline began not on the news of slower Chinese growth or Saudi announcements about supply, but last summer when the Fed announced that it planned to stop its quantitative easing program. Sharma and many others believe this program fueled a run up in asset buying in both emerging markets and commodities markets. “Easy money had kept oil prices artificially high for much longer than fundamentals warranted, as Chinese demand and oil supply had started to turn back in 2011, and oil prices have now merely returned to their long-term average,” says Sharma. “The end of the Fed’s quantitative easing has finally pricked the oil bubble.”

If this is the case, the fact that hot money could have such an effect on such a crucial everyday resource is worrisome. And the fact that the Fed’s QE, which was designed to buoy the real economy, has instead had the unintended and perverse effect of inflating asset prices is particularly disturbing. I think that regulatory attention on the financialization of the commodities markets will undoubtedly grow; for more on how it all works, check out this New York Times story on Goldman’s control of the aluminum markets. Amazing stuff.

http://time.com/3737506/low-oil-prices-reason/

Why Finance Is Still a Problem
Rana Foroohar @RanaForoohar March 9, 2015

Warren Buffett warned investors that bankers were still up to their old tricks in his recent investor letter. Vanguard founder Jack Bogle is writing about how high fee mutual funds are ripping off investors and endangering retirement security. And Fed Chair Janet Yellen is touting new, tougher capital rules for “Too Big to Fail” banks. Despite the recovery and strong jobs numbers last week, the re-regulation of the financial sector isn’t yet finished. But a deeper worry, and one that’s taking center stage amongst academics, is the fact that finance has yet to be re-moored to the real economy. That may be dampening the recovery for many.

A growing slew of research, including several just-published papers, has found that over a multi-decade period, the rise of finance is associated with lower capital investment in the real economy, greater inequality, and the demise of more productive industries. Brandeis International Business School professor Stephen G. Cecchetti and Enisse Kharroubi, a senior economist at the BIS, recently published a paper entitled “Why Does Financial Sector Growth Crowd Out Real Economic Growth?”

The answer: because finance looks for quick growth rather than long-term rewards. And because finance wants to invest in industries like real estate and construction where there are tangible assets to be collateralized, rather than intangible assets like the ideas and intellectual property that typically power more productive sectors like, say, technology, pharmaceuticals, or advanced manufacturing. What’s more, the disproportionate pay of bankers (they still make about three times what their similarly well-educated colleagues in other sectors do, even post crisis) continues to lure talent away from areas that create more and better jobs for the population as a whole. “When I was at MIT many years ago,” says Cecchetti, “everyone wanted to work in cold fusion or recombinant DNA. By the 1990s, nobody wanted to do that.” Solution? “I think we should take some proportion of the smartest people in the room and make sure they don’t go into finance,” says Cecchetti, only half joking.

Part of the problem with the rise of finance is that it encourages the culture of shareholder value over all else. That means CEOs focus more on buoying stock prices rather than making the best long-term decisions. The effects can be seen in the fact that since the 1980s, share buybacks and dividend payments have increased in direct proportion to a decrease in productive capital investment, according to a recent Roosevelt Institute paper entitled “Disgorge the Cash: The Disconnect Between Corporate Borrowing and Investment.”

What’s more, says JW Mason, a Roosevelt fellow who authored the paper, the low interest rates that have prevailed particularly since the 2008 crisis have sped up the trend as firms actually borrow money at lower rates to do more buybacks, rather than invest in the real economy. (The later is, by the way, what the Fed’s easy money policy was intended to encourage.) In fact, business investment dropped 20 % since 2008, as almost all borrowing went back to investors in the form of such payments. “It may be that we need to move to a more active control of investments to make sure that useful projects get funded,” says Mason, who says a kind of “World Bank for the US” might be one answer.

All this dovetails with the country’s inequality problem, which is an issue that will be big in the 2016 election cycle. As Wallace Turbeville, a Demos fellow who has done yet another influential paper on financialization points out, both the Republican and Democratic positions on inequality are lacking. Conservatives believe in bootstrapping, and liberals in redistribution of wealth. But if the very structure of our capitalism is designed to reward mainly elites (something Thomas Piketty’s best seller Capital in the 21st Century pointed out so well last year), then no amount of redistribution or hard work can fix the problem.

We need to fix the structure of capitalism itself and, in particular, figure out a way to make it work better for the masses. Turbeville has some of his own ideas about how to do this, including incentivizing long-term share ownership over high-speed trading, and limiting the use of derivatives. I hope that the economic debate in the primary season will be filled with many more.

http://time.com/3736713/american-finance-problem/

So that is all interesting in the BAU scheme, but what about the "transition" scenario? How do you convince people to look at the long term profit rather than the short term proft?
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby GHung » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 13:36:39

"....but what about the "transition" scenario?"

Meaning, how do we fix this, and the global culture of gaming every system we rely upon? I'm convinced that the international systems of trade, finance,, all of it; unfixable. The only way out, the only scientific solution, is a total reset; the Big (all-inclusive) Crash that restores true value to goods and labor. Price-of-everything rediscovery. This process is underway, but where it''ll lead and what forms it will take remain to be seen. As I've said, 21st century capitaliam is the snake that eats its tail. This human experiment is failing in a spectacular way.

It's not like we weren't warned: wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony, all fully manifested in our current culture, the days of reckoning are upon us, and the Four Horsemen are grooming their steeds for a long hard ride..
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Revi » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 14:08:11

The real reason for the drop is that it's too expensive for this economy. We can't pay over $80 a barrel any more, and next year it will be less until by 2020 it's less than $20 and it's game over. There might be some times when the price is higher than it's supposed to be, but not for long. We aren't going to be able to use oil soon.

I think they say that oil is no good unless it is at over 10-1 EROEI, since it takes that just to exist nowadays.

We are rapidly dropping close to that number. Then it gets interesting.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 14:38:17

Revi wrote:and next year it will be less until by 2020 it's less than $20 and it's game over. There might .

B.S.

$20 oil means virtually zero oil production.

.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 15:18:03

Revi wrote:The real reason for the drop is that it's too expensive for this economy. We can't pay over $80 a barrel any more, and next year it will be less until by 2020 it's less than $20 and it's game over. There might be some times when the price is higher than it's supposed to be, but not for long. We aren't going to be able to use oil soon.
Wait, are you are saying long term the world economy can't handle more than $20 oil? As in, no one can afford to buy it? That comes out to about $1 gallon for gasoline. You think this is the maximum level the world economy can afford to spend on oil long term?
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 16:55:16

Going to have to disagree with just about everything Revi said. Unlike the price crash in 2008 that was primarily a demand side collapse, this time around the price collapse is mainly because of oversupply, a glut of oil. Like what happened in the 80s. Also, the world economy can handle gasoline price of much more than $1 a gallon. Hell, milk goes for $4 a gallon. I think we can afford to spend more than a dollar a gallon on gas. Finally, oil is still "good" even if it's EROEI drops below 10. Decisions to produce oil are not based on the EROEI of the oil production process but on economic factors, is it profitable. If it is profitable to take high EROEI but low energy density natural gas and use it to produce low EROEI but high energy density tar sands, it will be done.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 16:57:39

Revi wrote:The real reason for the drop is that it's too expensive for this economy. We can't pay over $80 a barrel any more, and next year it will be less until by 2020 it's less than $20 and it's game over. There might be some times when the price is higher than it's supposed to be, but not for long. We aren't going to be able to use oil soon.

Repeating that we're all economically doomed and can't afford oil real soon now year after year seems to be what the doom crowd on this site love to do. But why bother? Each year, except I'll give you summer of 2008 over $120 a barrel when folks ACTUALLY changed their behavior and did things like switch to cheaper cars as an exception, this forecast is proven wrong, again and again.

As the chart below shows (using April 2015 futures prices), crude tumbled from roughly $100 in July to below $50 now. The idea that this happened because people suddenly couldn't afford it at the $100ish average price we'd seen for about 4 years before that, even as the US economy is returning to full capacity (given the aging work force demographic), makes no sense. And globally, the economy is doing OK, just not great. Even at 7%ish growth, for example, that's still a lot of growth out of China. The whole third world is roughly in that camp, on average.

http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/crude-oil ... meframe=1y

Look -- wishing something were so doesn't make it so. The US economy seems to already be getting a boost from $50 oil. So at $20 oil, we can't afford it? REALLY? Even when a Prius C at $18,000ish new will get 50+ mpg city, and with gasoline at roughly $1.00 or less for a consumer feeling pinched about gasoline? Seriously, you seem to be asserting that oil is less affordable WHEN it is clearly more affordable than it's been since the 2008-9 crash. I'm all ears if you can present meaningful DATA for why that should be so.

Since you (and your peers with similar statements) provide NO evidence for this, but simply state the economy is "bad" despite all the objective evidence that it is improving, why should we take this any more seriously than the predictions that complete industrial collapse (as always) is just around the corner? (And please don't cite zerohedge and their ilk's opinion as "data").

Microeconomics says that prices of widely available commodities are driven by supply and demand. As messed up as economics is (the dismal science), basic microeconomics has plenty of evidence on its side.

So why is the obvious popular mainstream theory that recent growth in US production, with Canadian Tar Sands production giving a minor assist -- and likely stressing the available storage for crude oil by about June of this year, not a far better explanation for $50ish oil prices currently?

If anything, I'm concerned we might have a short term crash in the price of oil as US storage capacity reaches its limits vs. all the supply coming in, and longs panic. This is currently forecast for roughly June of this year.

(If that happens and oil really does get to, say, $20 or below, I'll be happily buying depressed oil stocks, energy MLP's, etc. as the energy markets panic -- since I can wait patiently for fundamental supply/demand forces on price to reassert themselves, whether it takes a year or a decade).

http://www.energyandcapital.com/article ... plode/4772
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 17:02:48

kublikhan wrote:Going to have to disagree with just about everything Revi said. Unlike the price crash in 2008 that was primarily a demand side collapse, this time around the price collapse is mainly because of oversupply, a glut of oil. Like what happened in the 80s. Also, the world economy can handle gasoline price of much more than $1 a gallon. Hell, milk goes for $4 a gallon. I think we can afford to spend more than a dollar a gallon on gas. Finally, oil is still "good" even if it's EROEI drops below 10. Decisions to produce oil are not based on the EROEI of the oil production process but on economic factors, is it profitable. If it is profitable to take high EROEI but low energy density natural gas and use it to produce low EROEI but high energy density tar sands, it will be done.

Good points EXCEPT there is plenty of evidence the 2008-2009 oil price crash was a fear-response to a crashing global economy. People were fearing the possibility of a true depression, and bailing out of industrial (and related financial) assets of all kinds.

Except for sites like this, the world tends to see the banking rout due to the housing bubble and the ensuing carnage to the world's financial assets and confidence as was what caused this -- NOT $140ish oil for a few weeks in the summer of 2008.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 18:13:32

pstarr wrote:Revi is right on.

Pretty funny P, you say Revi is right then turn around and say the opposite of what he said. If there is only 17mmb/d of production the price will definitely be more than $20.

and desu wonders why no one takes us seriously.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Pops » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 20:27:09

OK so after all that, how about back to the question at hand:
...supply and demand haven’t changed enough to create a 50% plunge in prices. Meanwhile, the price decline began not on the news of slower Chinese growth or Saudi announcements about supply, but last summer when the Fed announced that it planned to stop its quantitative easing program.

I've kinda said this in places but get mostly - "waaal, the futures markets always meets the spot market in the end so speculators 'n bankers simply can't affect the price" or some such.

Or are we beyond any observation or analysis of actual events and just gonna ride our hobby horses into the sunset?
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 20:36:32

I think the answer depends extremely much on how elastic the demand is. Inelastic demand I think leads to big, powerful entities able to play more middle-men games and set prices more and for longer periods. I'll have to think about it.

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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 21:04:49

Of course there's the reality of how a bbl of oil is priced: there is a buyer and a seller. The buyer says he'll pay $X/bbl. The seller either takes that price or doesn't sell the oil. The buyer, a refinery, only makes a profit by selling its products above a certain price. If the refiner projects a certain price at which the consumers will buy a sufficient volume of product he won't pay more then that price.

The KSA can shut some of their wells in but if the refiners still don't see the consumers paying a sufficient price then they still won't pay more the $X. If losing some KSA production causes more competition amongst consumers SOME OF THEM could start bidding the price up. But the consumers who couldn't afford more than $X/bbl still aren't going to pay more. Thus we're back to the AFFORDABILITY factor. There will always be a finite amount of oil that is affordable at each price level. At the current price the world appears to be able to afford a lot of oil so the refiners are willing to pay around $50/bbl. At $100/bbl the refiners estimated a too small amount of AFFORDABLE oil would be available for them to process. Remember in addition to the profit per bbl a refinery makes, they are equally (if not more so) focused on volume. IOW they would be willing to accept a lower profit per bbl if it means a higher sales volume and thus a higher revenue stream.

But the bottom line remains the same: how ever they come up with the number no refiner pays a dollar more per bbl for oil then what they project as profitable for them. Oil produces can only control the volume they produce...not the price.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby ralfy » Wed 11 Mar 2015, 22:08:00

About oil prices being "artificially high," the catch is production cost.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Kristen » Thu 12 Mar 2015, 02:24:02

The worst thing that is happening to humanity (in the United States) at this moment is handling the grief associated with unrealistic expectations. We have two contradictory viewpoints; the first is that we are exceptionalist country and because of that exceptionalism we deserve certain material goods. The honest truth, is that we really live in a plutocracy, which is contradictory to the self assuming goal that you can do anything if you believe in it. But not achieving your goal, you're left with is a shame that burns inside you like a fire and Hades. The mainstream media drills in your head that it it's your fault.

Add this to the fact that as an aging population, or society was built for the young and you have quite the cluster fuck.

I personally, am offended by our leadership's avoidance learning, it has to stop. The sooner we look out for everyone and as a team start building a better future, the better the outcome.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 12 Mar 2015, 06:14:16

Kristen wrote:
I personally, am offended by our leadership's avoidance learning, it has to stop. The sooner we look out for everyone and as a team start building a better future, the better the outcome.


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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 12 Mar 2015, 06:20:44

GHung wrote: This process is underway, but where it''ll lead and what forms it will take remain to be seen. As I've said, 21st century capitaliam is the snake that eats its tail. This human experiment is failing in a spectacular way..


Following a total reset what entity could act as the arbiter of greed that all would capitulate to and accept moving forward?
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby GoghGoner » Thu 12 Mar 2015, 07:51:54

There are three bands in oil prices. Speculators move the price <$10 in the band that is set by supply/demand of oil. The most important band is the overall commodity price band which oil has not broken from in the past 30 years.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Pops » Thu 12 Mar 2015, 09:13:42

Thanks Dino, demand is very inelastic in the short run. Which is why I always question these large moves. Obviously oil is important and the fear of shortage has a high price tag, but 50%?

--
Goner, this pdf is all goofed up with equations making it hard to understand (LOL) but on ppg 10 is a chart of the oil supercycle as the authors devine it. It shows a top in the '20s, a dip then little top in the '60s, dip for the '70's then off to the races thru 2012, they make a specific point that:

A strikingly rising long-run trend is a unique characteristic of real oil prices in comparison to all the other commodity price trends, which are predominantly downward...

Super-cycles in oil prices shown in the lower part of Fig. 3 are not as strongly marked in the earlier
years as they are during the latter part of the sample, and their amplitude has increased in recent periods. The rise of electrification and the automobile industry since the late nineteenth century is reflected in a strong upward trend real in real oil prices, which ended in the 1920s, rather than in a super-cycle, which was rather moderate. The second super-cycle in oil prices is a fairly small one from 1947 to 1973 that resembles the post-war super-cycle in other commodities, but its expansion phase begins much later. This is followed by a very intense super-cycle marked initially by the oil price shocks of the 1970s. The final super-cycle is still going on being fueled by rising demand from newly emerging industrial centers and also by the increasing dominance of index traders in financialized commodity futures markets (Pollin and Heintz, 2011).

That last bit was a surprise because I wasn't looking for evidence of the speculator argument but just checking your facts on supercycles.

--
-- But back to financialization, here is the deal from Charles Smith
The Oil-Drenched Black Swan, Part 2: The Financialization of Oil (December 2, 2014)

Like home mortgages, oil has been viewed as a "safe" asset. The financialization of the oil sector has followed a slightly different script but the results are the same:

A weak foundation of collateral is supporting a mountain of leveraged, high-risk debt and derivatives. Oil in the ground has been treated as collateral for trillions of dollars in junk bonds, loans and derivatives of all this new debt.

The 35% decline in the price of oil has reduced the underlying collateral supporting all this debt by 35%. Loans that were deemed low-risk when oil was $100/barrel are no longer low-risk with oil below $70/barrel (dead-cat bounces notwithstanding).

Financialization is always based on the presumption that risk can be cancelled out by hedging bets made with counterparties. This sounds appealing, but as I have noted many times, risk cannot be disappeared, it can only be masked or transferred to others.

The Oil-Drenched Black Swan, Part 1, Part Tres, Part The Four: Oil Head Fake.



[R]isk cannot be disappeared = Ghung: 'total reset; ...Price-of-everything rediscovery.'

--
CHSmith again on Rummy's "unknowns" -
Psychoanalytic philosopher Slavoj Žižek noted that there is a fourth category, the unknown known: what we know that we intentionally refuse to acknowledge that we know.

I think this is an ontological (intrinsic) source of risk: we know our activities and choices are piling up risk, but we refuse to acknowledge this because we do not want to deal with the consequences of all that risk accumulating.

.
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Re: The Real Reason For The Drop?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Thu 12 Mar 2015, 10:34:09

Pops wrote:
Revi wrote:and next year it will be less until by 2020 it's less than $20 and it's game over. There might .

B.S.

$20 oil means virtually zero oil production.

.


I am with you 100 percent on this one Pops, IMO the only way we will be seeing $20/bbl oil is if the economy is so bad nobody can afford more, which would cause an extreme supply limit.

Well I suppose they could try setting price controls, but again that would lead to extreme production limits and supply shortfalls.
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