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Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 07:46:46

I was an oldest child, and very curious. My Mother dealt with this curiosity by finding me tasks that kept me occupied. Such as one afternoon when I was six years of age, when she handed me a long wooden spoon, stood me on a small wooden step, cautioned me to avoid burning my hands by not touching the huge cast iron pot, and officially charged me with the responsibility of stirring the aromatic pot of brown beans, ham hocks, fresh garden vegetables, molasses, and spices whenever the pot started to bubble up. This gave her considerable respite lasting all afternoon, she was even able to have coffee and conversation with two of her neighborhood friends, who while they were visiting made sure to praise my efforts at "cooking dinner".

Well, it's 4:46 AM, my wife has been cranky (as is normal for a CPA approaching peak tax season), I have been doing all the cooking for at least two weeks, and I am feeling quite wide awake and introspective. And unfortunately for the rest of you, in the mood for challenging the status quo. Therefore, here is Lord Matthew Ridley's opinion editorial from the Wall Street Journal on "Pi day" (aka 3/14/15):
Fossil Fuels Will Save the World (Really)
There are problems with oil, gas and coal, but their benefits for people—and the planet—are beyond dispute

Image
Workers tend to a well head during a hydraulic fracturing operation outside Rifle, Colo., on March 29, 2013. Increased production has driven down oil prices. PHOTO: ASSOCIATED PRESS
By MATT RIDLEY

The environmental movement has advanced three arguments in recent years for giving up fossil fuels: (1) that we will soon run out of them anyway; (2) that alternative sources of energy will price them out of the marketplace; and (3) that we cannot afford the climate consequences of burning them.

These days, not one of the three arguments is looking very healthy. In fact, a more realistic assessment of our energy and environmental situation suggests that, for decades to come, we will continue to rely overwhelmingly on the fossil fuels that have contributed so dramatically to the world’s prosperity and progress.

In 2013, about 87% of the energy that the world consumed came from fossil fuels, a figure that—remarkably—was unchanged from 10 years before. (1) This roughly divides into three categories of fuel and three categories of use: oil used mainly for transport, gas used mainly for heating, and coal used mainly for electricity.

Over this period, the overall volume of fossil-fuel consumption has increased dramatically, but with an encouraging environmental trend: a diminishing amount of carbon-dioxide emissions per unit of energy produced. The biggest contribution to decarbonizing the energy system has been the switch from high-carbon coal to lower-carbon gas in electricity generation.

On a global level, renewable energy sources such as wind and solar have contributed hardly at all to the drop in carbon emissions, and their modest growth has merely made up for a decline in the fortunes of zero-carbon nuclear energy. (The reader should know that I have an indirect interest in coal through the ownership of land in Northern England on which it is mined, but I nonetheless applaud the displacement of coal by gas in recent years.)

The argument that fossil fuels will soon run out is dead, at least for a while. The collapse of the price of oil over the past six months (2) is the result of abundance: an inevitable consequence of the high oil prices of recent years, which stimulated innovation in hydraulic fracturing, horizontal drilling, seismology and information technology. (3) The U.S.—the country with the oldest and most developed hydrocarbon fields—has found itself once again, surprisingly, at the top of the energy-producing league, rivaling Saudi Arabia in oil and Russia in gas.

The shale genie is now out of the bottle. Even if the current low price drives out some high-cost oil producers—in the North Sea, Canada, Russia, Iran and offshore, as well as in America—shale drillers can step back in whenever the price rebounds. As Mark Hill of Allegro Development Corporation argued last week, the frackers are currently experiencing their own version of Moore’s law: a rapid fall in the cost and time it takes to drill a well, along with a rapid rise in the volume of hydrocarbons they are able to extract. (4)

And the shale revolution has yet to go global. When it does, oil and gas in tight rock formations will give the world ample supplies of hydrocarbons for decades, if not centuries. Lurking in the wings for later technological breakthroughs is methane hydrate, a seafloor source of gas that exceeds in quantity all the world’s coal, oil and gas put together.

So those who predict the imminent exhaustion of fossil fuels are merely repeating the mistakes of the U.S. presidential commission that opined in 1922 that “already the output of gas has begun to wane. Production of oil cannot long maintain its present rate.” Or President Jimmy Carter when he announced on television in 1977 that “we could use up all the proven reserves of oil in the entire world by the end of the next decade.”

That fossil fuels are finite is a red herring. The Atlantic Ocean is finite, but that does not mean that you risk bumping into France if you row out of a harbor in Maine. The buffalo of the American West were infinite, in the sense that they could breed, yet they came close to extinction. It is an ironic truth that no nonrenewable resource has ever run dry, while renewable resources—whales, cod, forests, passenger pigeons—have frequently done so.

The second argument for giving up fossil fuels is that new rivals will shortly price them out of the market. But it is not happening. The great hope has long been nuclear energy, but even if there is a rush to build new nuclear power stations over the next few years, most will simply replace old ones due to close. The world’s nuclear output is down from 6% of world energy consumption in 2003 to 4% today. It is forecast to inch back up to just 6.7% by 2035, according the Energy Information Administration.

Nuclear’s problem is cost. In meeting the safety concerns of environmentalists, politicians and regulators added requirements for extra concrete, steel and pipework, and even more for extra lawyers, paperwork and time. The effect was to make nuclear plants into huge and lengthy boondoggles with no competition or experimentation to drive down costs. Nuclear is now able to compete with fossil fuels only when it is subsidized.

Image
ILLUSTRATION: HARRY CAMPBELL

As for renewable energy, hydroelectric is the biggest and cheapest supplier, but it has the least capacity for expansion. Technologies that tap the energy of waves and tides remain unaffordable and impractical, and most experts think that this won’t change in a hurry. Geothermal is a minor player for now. And bioenergy—that is, wood, ethanol made from corn or sugar cane, or diesel made from palm oil—is proving an ecological disaster: It encourages deforestation and food-price hikes that cause devastation among the world’s poor, and per unit of energy produced, it creates even more carbon dioxide than coal.

Wind power, for all the public money spent on its expansion, has inched up to—wait for it—1% of world energy consumption in 2013. Solar, for all the hype, has not even managed that: If we round to the nearest whole number, it accounts for 0% of world energy consumption.

Both wind and solar are entirely reliant on subsidies for such economic viability as they have. World-wide, the subsidies given to renewable energy currently amount to roughly $10 per gigajoule: These sums are paid by consumers to producers, so they tend to go from the poor to the rich, often to landowners (I am a landowner and can testify that I receive and refuse many offers of risk-free wind and solar subsidies).

It is true that some countries subsidize the use of fossil fuels, but they do so at a much lower rate—the world average is about $1.20 per gigajoule—and these are mostly subsidies for consumers (not producers), so they tend to help the poor, for whom energy costs are a disproportionate share of spending.

The costs of renewable energy are coming down, especially in the case of solar. But even if solar panels were free, the power they produce would still struggle to compete with fossil fuel—except in some very sunny locations—because of all the capital equipment required to concentrate and deliver the energy. This is to say nothing of the great expanses of land on which solar facilities must be built and the cost of retaining sufficient conventional generator capacity to guarantee supply on a dark, cold, windless evening.

The two fundamental problems that renewables face are that they take up too much space and produce too little energy. Consider Solar Impulse, the solar-powered airplane now flying around the world. Despite its huge wingspan (similar to a 747), slow speed and frequent stops, the only cargo that it can carry is the pilots themselves. That is a good metaphor for the limitations of renewables.

To run the U.S. economy entirely on wind would require a wind farm the size of Texas, California and New Mexico combined—backed up by gas on windless days. To power it on wood would require a forest covering two-thirds of the U.S., heavily and continually harvested.

John Constable, who will head a new Energy Institute at the University of Buckingham in Britain, points out that the trickle of energy that human beings managed to extract from wind, water and wood before the Industrial Revolution placed a great limit on development and progress. The incessant toil of farm laborers generated so little surplus energy in the form of food for men and draft animals that the accumulation of capital, such as machinery, was painfully slow. Even as late as the 18th century, this energy-deprived economy was sufficient to enrich daily life for only a fraction of the population.

Our old enemy, the second law of thermodynamics, is the problem here. As a teenager’s bedroom generally illustrates, left to its own devices, everything in the world becomes less ordered, more chaotic, tending toward “entropy,” or thermodynamic equilibrium. To reverse this tendency and make something complex, ordered and functional requires work. It requires energy.

The more energy you have, the more intricate, powerful and complex you can make a system. Just as human bodies need energy to be ordered and functional, so do societies. In that sense, fossil fuels were a unique advance because they allowed human beings to create extraordinary patterns of order and complexity—machines and buildings—with which to improve their lives.

The result of this great boost in energy is what the economic historian and philosopher Deirdre McCloskey calls the Great Enrichment. In the case of the U.S., there has been a roughly 9,000% increase in the value of goods and services available to the average American since 1800, almost all of which are made with, made of, powered by or propelled by fossil fuels. (5)

Still, more than a billion people on the planet have yet to get access to electricity and to experience the leap in living standards that abundant energy brings. This is not just an inconvenience for them: Indoor air pollution from wood fires kills four million people a year. The next time that somebody at a rally against fossil fuels lectures you about her concern for the fate of her grandchildren, show her a picture of an African child dying today from inhaling the dense muck of a smoky fire.

Notice, too, the ways in which fossil fuels have contributed to preserving the planet. As the American author and fossil-fuels advocate Alex Epstein points out in a bravely unfashionable book, “The Moral Case for Fossil Fuels,” the use of coal halted and then reversed the deforestation of Europe and North America. The turn to oil halted the slaughter of the world’s whales and seals for their blubber. Fertilizer manufactured with gas halved the amount of land needed to produce a given amount of food, thus feeding a growing population while sparing land for wild nature.

To throw away these immense economic, environmental and moral benefits, you would have to have a very good reason. The one most often invoked today is that we are wrecking the planet’s climate. But are we?

Although the world has certainly warmed since the 19th century, the rate of warming has been slow and erratic. There has been no increase in the frequency or severity of storms or droughts, no acceleration of sea-level rise. Arctic sea ice has decreased, but Antarctic sea ice has increased. At the same time, scientists are agreed that the extra carbon dioxide in the air has contributed to an improvement in crop yields and a roughly 14% increase in the amount of all types of green vegetation on the planet since 1980.

That carbon-dioxide emissions should cause warming is not a new idea. In 1938, the British scientist Guy Callender thought that he could already detect warming as a result of carbon-dioxide emissions. He reckoned, however, that this was “likely to prove beneficial to mankind” by shifting northward the climate where cultivation was possible.

Only in the 1970s and 1980s did scientists begin to say that the mild warming expected as a direct result of burning fossil fuels—roughly a degree Celsius per doubling of carbon-dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere—might be greatly amplified by water vapor and result in dangerous warming of two to four degrees a century or more. That “feedback” assumption of high “sensitivity” remains in virtually all of the mathematical models used to this day by the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC.

And yet it is increasingly possible that it is wrong. As Patrick Michaels of the libertarian Cato Institute has written, since 2000, 14 peer-reviewed papers, published by 42 authors, many of whom are key contributors to the reports of the IPCC, have concluded that climate sensitivity is low because net feedbacks are modest. (6) They arrive at this conclusion based on observed temperature changes, ocean-heat uptake and the balance between warming and cooling emissions (mainly sulfate aerosols). On average, they find sensitivity to be 40% lower than the models on which the IPCC relies.

If these conclusions are right, they would explain the failure of the Earth’s surface to warm nearly as fast as predicted over the past 35 years, a time when—despite carbon-dioxide levels rising faster than expected—the warming rate has never reached even two-tenths of a degree per decade and has slowed down to virtually nothing in the past 15 to 20 years. This is one reason the latest IPCC report did not give a “best estimate” of sensitivity and why it lowered its estimate of near-term warming.

Most climate scientists remain reluctant to abandon the models and take the view that the current “hiatus” has merely delayed rapid warming. A turning point to dangerously rapid warming could be around the corner, even though it should have shown up by now. So it would be wise to do something to cut our emissions, so long as that something does not hurt the poor and those struggling to reach a modern standard of living.

We should encourage the switch from coal to gas in the generation of electricity, provide incentives for energy efficiency, get nuclear power back on track and keep developing solar power and electricity storage. We should also invest in research on ways to absorb carbon dioxide from the air, by fertilizing the ocean or fixing it through carbon capture and storage. Those measures all make sense. And there is every reason to promote open-ended research to find some unexpected new energy technology.

The one thing that will not work is the one thing that the environmental movement insists upon: subsidizing wealthy crony capitalists to build low-density, low-output, capital-intensive, land-hungry renewable energy schemes, while telling the poor to give up the dream of getting richer through fossil fuels.

Mr. Ridley is the author of “The Rational Optimist: How Prosperity Evolves” and a member of the British House of Lords.

(1) http://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/pdf/Energy-economics/statistical-review-2014/BP-statistical-review-of-world-energy-2014-primary-energy-section.pdf
(2) http://www.wsj.com/articles/oil-price-pressured-by-growing-inventories-1426242683?tesla=y
(3) http://www.wsj.com/articles/iea-strong-u-s-production-could-set-stage-for-oil-price-fall-1426244663
(4) http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Oil-Price-Crash-A-Blessing-In-Disguise-For-US-Shale.html
(5) http://www.deirdremccloskey.org/docs/pdf/IndiaPaperMcCloskey.pdf
(6) http://www.cato.org/blog/collection-evidence-low-climate-sensitivity-continues-grow
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Those were some tasty beans, which Mother served with a fresh baked corn bread in an iron skillet. I can almost taste them, and Mother has been dead almost 30 years. I believe I will E-Mail my four sisters and see perhaps if one of the four has Mother's Brown Bean recipe.

Sometimes the refrain of Doom, Doom, DOOM is stifling around this place. Dare I suggest: Perhaps we are not so doomed.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby Paulo1 » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 08:41:58

Hi Gary,

I readily admit to having a very comfortable life because of the fossil fuel gift.

However.

The reasoning and analogies drawn in this article would earn a 'flunk' for Philosophy 101. My old prof, (an engineer interestingly enough who one day heared TS Elliot read The Wasteland and immediately switched to Humanities), would shudder and grimace.

Cooking is good and restorative. So is sleep. I can see you do enjoy 'stirring the pot'. Good one.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 09:16:53

The reasons sited for fossil fuels being good for the environment ignored completely that those very same fossil fuels fueled our population to over 7 billion resulting in the single greatest threat of all which he did not even address which is loss of biodiversity on our planet due to our plundering of natural ecosystems. Where I agree with him is that the petri dish has a lot more sugar in it then we have been estimating so that BAU can continue for long into the future. This is the very environmental threat he didn't address. That our continued resiliency will continue the plundering long into the future and even probably enable a few more billion to join high consumption life styles..... great for the environment? The guy is an idiot.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 09:39:20

Hello Paulo. When I read the above OpEd, I was (speaking as an Engineer) struck by the author's final argument about climate change sensitivity. In an amplifier circuit, one can apply positive or negative feedback as you choose. Negative feedback tends to decrease the gain of the circuit, reduce distortion, and in general make the output/input signals more alike and more stable. Positive feedback increases gain in a non-linear fashion, increases distortion, and tends to make the circuit susceptible to wild oscillations that are damped out only by some other limiting factor such as the capacity of the amplifier power supply.

Most feedbacks in Nature are negative in sign, they act to restore organisms and ecologies to a stable state. The Biological term for this is Homeostasis. Much controversy has resulted from the "feedback mechanisms" that are inserted into the climate models, which are the reasons that such models all will show dramatic temperature swings (Al Gore dubbed this the "hockey stick").

I believe that the authors of these models have made basic math errors by assuming all feedbacks are positive. I would argue that like almost all feedback loops in Nature, that climate feedbacks are Homeostatic, and the men doing the modeling are in error. If you make such alterations in sign to the climate models, the predicted temperatures are more accurate in the sense that they are closer to the observed temperatures.

Again, perhaps we are not so doomed.

Ibon, while noting your opinion and giving you full credit for both the observation and the obviously heartfelt emotion, my take is different. The Earth is mankind's creche. We spent our infancy here and now - assuming the petri dish has both room and food for a few more decades - we will leave and spread into space. I am not especially religious, but have always been struck by the following verse:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." - Genesis 1:28

The presence of over 7 billion humans on the Earth has resulted in a superabundance of cultural diversity, an incredible expansion in human knowledge, and - yes it's true - a lot of bad smells.
Last edited by KaiserJeep on Mon 16 Mar 2015, 09:49:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby GHung » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 09:46:41

"The argument that fossil fuels will soon run out is dead, at least for a while."

I haven't seen any credible analysts saying that fossil fuels will soon run out. This doesn't change that their net benefits to economies, especially when all externalities are acknowledged, is declining and will continue to do so.

"Wind power, for all the public money spent on its expansion, has inched up to—wait for it—1% of world energy consumption in 2013. Solar, for all the hype, has not even managed that: If we round to the nearest whole number, it accounts for 0% of world energy consumption.

Gosh, how much have economies spent on fossil fuels and other non-renewable energy sources since starting from a base of zero? Just askin' since some continue to hold renewables to a higher standard (or shorter time frame). Two hundred years of fossil fuel exploitation is a very high bar to be compared to. It's not an honest comparison. Same with electric vehicles.

"Notice, too, the ways in which fossil fuels have contributed to preserving the planet.

Notice how Ridley ignores that this has been a Faustian bargain and ignores the prices we pay for this "contribution". It's like 'balancing' one's check book by only counting deposits.

As for climate change, the author continues to bargain, not mentioning the massive deep ocean heat sink that has, and will continue to moderate surface temperatures. Our biosphere isn't a linear system, nor are Earth's heat-sinks, but these authors continue to apply linear thinking to the process. Again, not an honest assessment (or indicative of ignorance; take your pick).

I could go on, but in short, this is yet another example of cherry picking to make one's point. The reality of our current vast collection of predicaments is deeply systemic and doesn't care how we spin it.

Four graphs tell the story:

Image
Image
Image
Image

Anybody who thinks this can continue is deluded.
Last edited by GHung on Mon 16 Mar 2015, 10:05:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 09:50:47

One of the most elaborate thread starters ever here,:/ no mention of the eminent need to jump on a space doughnut, which is a relief for the dozen or so on said doughnut & the ignorant masses. Thanks KJ I will read it tomorrow lol...
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 09:59:27

GHung, I do not believe that Ridley suggested things could continue forever, only that Doom is further in the future than most PO.com Forum members believe.

We have all traversed the same bell curve (H = Time, V = Alarm):

Image

....and most Forum members are on the far side of the peak. (Desu is defiantly remaining on top.)

SeaGypsy, I look forward to a thoughtful response.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 10:23:54

KaiserJeep wrote:The Earth is mankind's creche. We spent our infancy here and now - assuming the petri dish has both room and food for a few more decades - we will leave and spread into space. I am not especially religious, but have always been struck by the following verse:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." - Genesis 1:28


There is really nothing original about your desire to spread into space because it is an extension of the biblical verse which is just another very unoriginal human centric orientation that almost got Galileo killed and has many believing that Darwin is Satan's right hand man.

You can take this human centric position and see evolution as some divine progressive movement that will propel our species to colonize other planets or you can remove the narcissism and see evolution for what it is, this engine of biodiversity where humans, although they may be a keystone species, have no more inherent worth than any other organism... from the point of view of nature........ not Kudzu Apes...

The latest series of celebrity videos by Conservation International makes this point eloquently well....

http://natureisspeaking.org/mothernature.html

It exposes beautifully human self righteousness toward how we see our place on the planet...... a narrative that you hold dearly as well seeing our species as an exceptional organism with a manifest destiny to reach for the stars......

Do you understand how un exceptional your position really is? How very common in terms of how humans have seen themselves these past couple of hundred years as our parasitism has bloomed?

The immensity of space and the immensity of biodiversity on our planet, the history of life from a couple of billion years to the present. Look at it directly with no human bias and narrative, see your own species as one of billions of manifestations with no inherent value beyond its brief and tenuous existence. It is frightening to actually accept the immensity and humbling to see our species insignificance in the universe. For some this can be a wellspring of spiritual gratitude and humility, for most, sadly, it is too hard to stare down and we therefore have to create these silly immature narratives that we are somehow a special and chosen species.

Pathetic really.

This is the inherent hubris that still forms the bedrock of modern industrial civilization. There are consequences to this hubris and it is not projecting us to other planets, it will shatter the mirror of our narcissism though which is really what all your dreams of space colonization is really about. Very ordinary and unoriginal.

You recognizing that would be the most subversive stirring of the pot I can offer you in return to your opening post :)
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby GHung » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 10:50:16

KJ: "GHung, I do not believe that Ridley suggested things could continue forever, only that Doom is further in the future than most PO.com Forum members believe."

Perhaps some of us PO.com members understand (and Ridley either ignores or doesn't realize) that complex inter-connected systems generally don't follow symetrical bell curves. They tend to decline and fail quickly as inflection points are reached. Plenty of examples: bridges fail catasrophically; populations die off suddenly; economic growth/decline curves tend to follow a more shark-fin curve. The idea that industrial society will decline gradually is meerly an assumption. Once economic or natural systems reach inflection points, and other inter-related systems become more stressed, things can happen quickly, even without the proverbial black swans. Lots of black swans hovering above as we continue to feed them.

Ridley seems to skip (or minimise) the part where we've been shoring up many of our systems; financial with debt; food with fossil fuels; populations with the former.... all-the-while falling behind on necessary infrastructure maintenance; natural systems are in decline; finite resources become constrained; water tables in decline, etc. We can't compartmentalize and dismiss these processes because they are all part-and-parcel of what keeps industrial civilization afloat. Those who think systemically understand this. Increasing demand on declining finite and semi-finite resources leads to inflection points.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 10:51:24

KJ, do you recall quite a few of your posts were you were ranting that we are going to lay waste to our planet and destroy our biosphere and for this reason we need to colonize space? You can look back and review many of your posts making this claim. This position is again an example of how you over estimate our species importance and impact on our planet. It is directly related to the narcissism that sees our species as exceptional...whether exceptionally destructive or exceptionally driven to colonize other planets..... same fallacy. That is one of the fallacies of doomers as well and interestingly enough this is where doomers share the same narcissism.... seeing our species as overly destructive and having a far greater impact that what we really do have..... the conservation international video sums this up quite well.... nature could give a damn about our viral spread on the planet actually.

The negative feedbacks you mentioned as apposed to positive feedbacks. I agree with this also. Instead of human overshoot unleashing a cascade of tipping points that will take our planet into darkness I see this more in the negative feedback correction of our accumulated biomass serving as a similar "fossil fuel" resource for some upcoming pathogens. Rats and seagulls and turkey vultures and cockroaches will decline along with our domesticated animals and biodiversity will restore itself. These self correcting negative feedbacks all contribute to stasis, otherwise we would not have the stable biosphere we have and I agree that nothing modern industrial civilization has done has threatened our planets stasis. I see climate change as real but I see our planets negative feedbacks making this an insignificant blip. Our consumption and population on the other hand, an already real and current manifestation, is the real issue and one conveniently ignored. But nature doesn't even really care about this does it?
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 11:06:59

Looks like KJ has drank the Insterstellar kool-aid. I still like Star Trek, but I now see it firmly as a comforting fantasy. I can't take anyone seriously who posts here who pushes that space-age-Columbus narrative of human expansion.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 15:31:26

GHung wrote:Perhaps some of us PO.com members understand (and Ridley either ignores or doesn't realize) that complex inter-connected systems generally don't follow symetrical bell curves. -snip-


Apologies if you misunderstood, the bell curve was mine, with time on the horizontal axis and concern over Peak Oil along the vertical axis. My point was minor: Most members tend to join on the upslope of the curve, we talk them through the manic panic phase, and most of us then end up still concerned (after all, we still hang out at PO.com) but with less obsession over the imminent near term advent of TEOTWAWKI. (Except for Desu.)

GHung wrote:Ridley seems to skip (or minimise) the part where we've been shoring up many of our systems; financial with debt; food with fossil fuels; populations with the former.... all-the-while falling behind on necessary infrastructure maintenance; natural systems are in decline; finite resources become constrained; water tables in decline, etc. We can't compartmentalize and dismiss these processes because they are all part-and-parcel of what keeps industrial civilization afloat. Those who think systemically understand this. Increasing demand on declining finite and semi-finite resources leads to inflection points.


Yes, I won't argue with that. But there are over 7 billion humans, and most of us get up every day, put on our pants one leg at a time, and go to work to preserve BAU - either consciously or unconsciously - which creates an enormous amount of momentum. Our path will not be easily or quickly changed, and the direction of travel will remain basically the same for decades. (At least, I believe that.)
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 15:39:46

Paulo1 wrote:Hi Gary,
The reasoning and analogies drawn in this article would earn a 'flunk' for Philosophy 101. My old prof, (an engineer interestingly enough who one day heared TS Elliot read The Wasteland and immediately switched to Humanities), would shudder and grimace.

Would you care to provide an actual REASON his reasoning and analogies should cause him to flunk philosophy? As an amateur philosopher, I'm interested to hear something of substance on that.

In the mean time, a whiny professor switching "to humanities" isn't exactly big news in the land of the overpriced public university funded partially by taxpayers, now is it?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 15:44:41

GHung wrote:"The argument that fossil fuels will soon run out is dead, at least for a while."

I haven't seen any credible analysts saying that fossil fuels will soon run out. This doesn't change that their net benefits to economies, especially when all externalities are acknowledged, is declining and will continue to do so.

Because at a little over $2.00 per gallon for gasoline (with crude prices falling again recently), driving is SUCH a horrible deal in the US compared to recent years. (NOT)

When you find consumers willing to PAY for all those externalities in a plurality (I'm the only person I'm aware of who thinks gasoline should cost $20.00 or more to pay for pollution, the US military, etc. Most of my friends think this is insane and whine that it is unafforable -- reality shouldn't interfere with their convenience, after all) -- let me know. I have my doubts that will happen in our lifetimes, and therefore US cowardly politicians are highly unlikely to deal with the issue.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 15:48:55

ennui2 wrote:Looks like KJ has drank the Insterstellar kool-aid. I still like Star Trek, but I now see it firmly as a comforting fantasy. I can't take anyone seriously who posts here who pushes that space-age-Columbus narrative of human expansion.

OK, fine. Assuming you are rational, what is your excuse for siding with the "we are doomed real soon now" camp which according to my yardstick, at the end of the day (or year) is always wrong?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 16:40:39

Ibon, I am still pondering your words. But one thought popped up immediately, in regards to your Kudzu ape analogy - which I still admire and still believe to be of value.

First of all, I have lived in four of the green states, and I know Kudzu intimately:
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Although it is so extreme that a case could be made that the stuff is extraterrestrial in origin, honestly it reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode, or perhaps "The Lonesome Death of Jordy Verrill" episode of the 1982 film Creepshow.
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...anyway, back to the topic at hand. Apes live in jungles and build nests in trees or on the ground:
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...whereas humans live in different types of jungles:
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...and build very different nests:
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Something is different about humans. Somewhere something happened to us that made us fundamentally capable of much more than apes.
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We can argue whatever about that difference and what inspired it. My point is that we transcend other species and our fate is (I deeply believe) in our own hands. It is true that we have harmed the Earth beyond measure. It is also true that we can save ourselves in many ways - I happen to favor the simplest and easiest to carry off, because of that principle called Ockham's razor, aka the Law of Parsimony.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby MD » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 17:07:52

Woo Gary I want a hit of what you've been smokin!
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby GHung » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 17:31:25

KJ: "It is also true that we can save ourselves in many ways."

On a tribal level, perhaps. Our collectives now number in the millions and there is no "we" when it comes to cooperative efforts for the good of the many. We're far to conflicted, too diverse in our goals, and too selfish in numbers. Our hyper-hierarchical structures can't function well when it comes to specific and directed responses, except in war, perhaps. Our methods and manners have become largely chaotic in nature, perhaps a reversion to more evolutionary randomness.

I short, we aren't in control, collectively. We have institutions that provide the illusion of control; temporary stability, but there's no plan; not really. Making shit up as we go along won't solve the collection of predicaments we find ourselves in. That's what nature does; throws everything at the wall and sees what sticks. Most doesn't. In our case, seems we've been far too successful for our long-term good.

Question: What other species spends so much time, energy, and effort devising ways to exterminate itself? How long can such a species insulate itself from its ongoing destruction of its primary habitat?
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 18:05:09

GHung, I never said that we could SAVE THE PLANET or SAVE EVERYBODY. The number of humans required to conserve every human gene is estimated to be about 3500. The number of humans needed to have a viable subset of the human genome is under 100. That O'Neill Space Colony does not require ANYTHING in the way of unknown tech - only the already well along and ongoing reduction in cost for space transportation.

Most people are going to die. The Earth will recover in a Geological Age (aka as a long long long time). The solution that saves a viable subset of the human race is much closer and easier than most PO.com members assume - and those that still doubt can just stay behind and die.

The World has always been a cruel place - that is why we evolved to a species capable of living in space, with technological help.
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Re: Stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over

Unread postby GHung » Mon 16 Mar 2015, 18:32:26

Sure, KJ. I grew up reading books like Rendezvous with Rama, and plenty of others about artificial mini-moons and inter-galactic space colonies (what was the one with a subclass of mutants with knives; the poor who lived too close to the central reactor? Heinlein, I think.). What we got was Skylab and the ISS,, and now the US has to buy rides to space on private or Russian hardware. If we could cooperate enough to develop such a project, we could deal with our environmental impacts and population growth. One would require an almost supernatural assemblage of resources and energy. The other would conserve those resources and allow for some level of sustainability. Neither seems feasable at this point.

Question: What was wrong with the spaceship we already have? If we 're going to use it up and abandon it, what makes you think we wouldn't do the same wherever we end up? So far, it seems our assholiness is baked in. Up to now, moving to new locations hasn't changed our behavior for the better much. Maybe it was always meant to be that way; gain wisdom as a species, or perish.
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