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Morals vs Technology

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Morals vs Technology

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 07 Jun 2015, 08:36:25

dohboi wrote:As I said elsewhere, there are of course rich ironies in the Norway decision.

Still, I'd rather see such major funds publicly saying they will not help further fund coal development than have them go on funding it.

Slavery was 'nothing personal, just business' until people decided it wasn't a morally acceptable way of doing business.


I see this last statement or variations upon it made with great frequency. Unfortunately it is incorrect, the people of the 1850's did not suddenly become more moral in the modern view than those of the 1492-1840 period. What happened was messy economics. Until the 1840's your choices for getting mechanical work done were a) Human labor, B) Animal power, C) Wind power and D) Water power. If you were lucky enough to be the first person to get to a new stream or river that flowed fast enough to turn a Mill Wheel you could become quite wealthy. By the same token if your local had a moderate but relatively steady breeze but no competing water you could build a Windmill and you could do very well for yourself. That is why you can open any phone book in America and look at the last names, you will find many Miller and Smith families because in the early modern era peoples surnames were based on their profession as often as not. Every village needed a Mill and a Smithy to succeed. If you didn't have rapidly flowing water of a steady breeze you would attach 1 or 2 oxen to a turnstile and make them walk in circles for a few hours each day turning the milling wheel, and if there were no Oxen available you would put slaves, criminals, or less coerced humans on the turnstile and make them march in circles all day to drive the milling wheel.

Starting around 1840 by 1850 low pressure steam engines replaced many if not all of the human and animal power because fire wood and coal were cheap and the steam engine did not need to be fed, sheltered or doctored when you were not in need of running the Mill. In the 1850's some steam engines were just sitting there unused during the off season and creative people started putting them to work in 'Manufactories' which we modern folks have shortened to Factory. This happened first in New England where every suitable stream had a Mill that powered textile factories. When the steam engines came in the need for human and animal labor changed, you needed more skilled workmen to tend the steam engines and Mechanics did quite well, and you needed uneducated labor to thread machines and so on. The Manufactory owners quickly discovered that day laborers could be trained at these tasks with minimal effort, and you did not have to feed, shelter or doctor them because they would seek out those things with the low wages you paid them on their own. Slaves had to have all of those things and were economically not competitive, the Factory owner who used slave labor was at a financial disadvantage compared to his 'free' labor neighbors.

Thus in New England, where farms were small and Factories used free labor Slavery became uneconomic and seemingly overnight 'immoral'. To make matters even more lopsided Pennsylvania had the best known supplies of Coal. The hard Anthracite coal of Pennsylvania was perfect for steel and iron works because it can be used directly in blast furnaces as fuel. To use wood you have to make it into charcoal first and to use softer grades of coal you have to 'coke' it which is essentially the same process. You cook either wood or soft coal and the remnant left behind is hard enough and burns hot enough to power a blast furnace or forge. With cheaper iron and hundreds of small factories Pennsylvania and New England developed the first railroad networks. With railroads on land and the Great Lakes from Buffalo, New York westward providing low cost transport the industrialization waves moved rapidly west in the north. Buffalo, Erie PA, Cleveland, OH, Toledo, OH, Detroit, MI, Chicago, IL, Green Bay, WI all were opened up by sail boats, but by the 1850's steam power had revolutionized river and lake transportation.

So in area's where big farms were more economic than they were in New England there were still small farms because the kind of crops grown went to feed the factory labor across the entire north of the country. Wheat and Corn and Oats are not cash crops like Indigo, Tobacco and Cotton. You can make a living, but it is hard to get fabulously wealthy farming food.

In the south on the other hand cash crops were the way the motivated got wealthy and stayed wealthy, not manufacturing. Farm implements to make better use of labor had already appeared in the north with the McCormick type reaper and the John Deere plow making it possible for small farmers to grow more food on less land by increasing labor efficiency. There were motivated people working on producing mechanical equipment designed for Indigo and Cotton farming in the 1850's, but before those technologies could mature to the point of effecting the markets for labor the Civil War broke out. If the war had been delayed 10 or 15 years mechanical replacements would have made cotton and indigo slavery uneconomic. Without the great need for form labor slavery would have become rare and died out on its own just like it did in New England.

If you want Coal to become 'immoral' you have to accept some alternative way of producing power that will replace it economically. Do that and it will fall out of favor very quickly.
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Re: U.S. greenhouse gas emissions fall 10 pct since 2005 – E

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 07 Jun 2015, 10:08:21

Well, this gets us pretty far off topic. Thanks for the mini-history lesson. Yes, it is obviously true that the civil war was not 'just' a moral war against slavery. But to say that moral outrage against slavery played no roll would be equally a-historical. And of course it wasn't just in the US that people were turning away from slavery.

But yes, the cheaper alternatives get, the easier it will be to get away from coal and other fossil fuels.
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Re: Morals vs Technology

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 07 Jun 2015, 16:10:51

I think I failed to make my point on Morality.

Simply put, Morals are a cultural concept that reflect the technology level of the culture in question.

People living in 1950 found the concept of dating where a young couple would go somewhere in a private car with just two teen age persons of presumably different genders in it perfectly acceptable. Their ancestors living in 1900 would have found that practice completely immoral because young couples were in theory at least always under the watchful eye of a chaperone. Technology changed what is seen as moral behavior.

People growing into teen years in 1970 and later decades in the USA have a very different view of sexual morality because of easy birth control and lenient abortion practices in the USA. Technology has changed what is seen as moral.

In 1750 if a man beat his wife to the point of breaking bones or causing permanent scars that was moral behavior in that era. This did not change over night, but as technology improved communications and people all around the community could gossip about such happenings it became first socially unacceptable, and then illegal. Technology changed morals.

Burning coal at the massive rates we are doing today is bad for the environment, but the majority of people do not perceive that they or their descendents are being harmed by burning coal. All the documentaries like The Last Mountain or An Inconvenient Truth will not raise up public outrage until they perceive that burning coal costs them directly more than some alternative cleaner technology. Once that happens the public will decide burning coal is immoral and the practice will be substantially reduced and eventually forbidden.
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One equal temper of heroic hearts,
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Re: Morals vs Technology

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 07 Jun 2015, 17:28:45

Tanada wrote:Simply put, Morals are a cultural concept that reflect the technology level of the culture in question.


Just a bit off topic but underlying the point you made here in another way we often don't consider. Human empathy and therefore our morals extends to other creatures besides ourselves but our technology removes us so far from natural ecosystems that we aren't exposed to the visceral destruction that happens on a daily basis to native flora and fauna around the planet. For that reason if you look on FB or any other media venue you will notice that we extend our compassion mostly to our house cats and dogs because these domesticated animals share our artificial landscapes.

The "Environment" becomes a politicized concept, an abstraction, something "outside" of human ecology, it is not warm and fuzzy like a little kitten.
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Re: Morals vs Technology

Unread postby diemos » Sun 07 Jun 2015, 18:19:50

A society has the moral it can afford.

-Heinlein
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Re: Morals vs Technology

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 07 Jun 2015, 18:23:14

Interesting take on morality. I would say that we should distinguish between the consensus morality of society and individual inclinations and preferences. As an example yes slavery in the US became more and more obsolete in time but I think most persons were disgusted by it. Same with going to war we may accept it but I think most do not condone and relish going to war in modern times. I do think that we all are molded morally by the context of our environment and by our upbringing. Among barbarians of the Ancient world some things may have been morally acceptable that today would be seen as heinous. Take for instance human sacrifice. So I would classify technology as just one environmental factor that can shape group and individual morality. Finally relative to what Ibon stated I think our contempt for the environment stems not only from our separation but from our stage in evolution in which I think our capability to empathize can still be developed and honed. I say this because even among each other their is a persistence of lack of empathy.
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Re: Morals vs Technology

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 07 Jun 2015, 18:38:35

And one more reminder: Norway wasn't funding coal extraction...they owned stock in the companies. Transferrinv that ownership to another entity has no effect on the borrowing capacity of the coal companies. All Norway did was monetize what profit they made owning those coal stocks. Depending on how long ago they bought the coal extraction stocks they may have made an excellent return.

And again: Noway produces about 70 million tons of CO2 yearly by burning coal.
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Re: Morals vs Technology

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 08 Jun 2015, 12:19:04

This is a classic nature vs. nurture debate and it's not something that can really be reduced solely to the laws of thermodynamics.
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Re: Morals vs Technology

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 08 Jun 2015, 15:29:51

"...it's not something that can really be reduced solely to the laws of thermodynamics." Sure it can. Take the word itself: thermodynamics. Thermo = of or related to heat. Dynamics = Movement/motion.

Norway continues to "movie" more "heat" into the atmosphere by its continued burning of coal. It's really very simple: either a country is contributing to climate change by burning coal or they aren't. Thus respect to coal a country is either part of the problem or part of the solution. Thus Norway continues to be a part of the problem whether they own stock in coal mining companies or not.

And again from one of my favorite philosophers: "To be...not to seem to be".
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