[noobtube]

It is no surprise to me that on so many forums discussing issues related to collapse, preparation for disruptions, and the eventual end of the American empire, that the discussions have been so delusional regarding the epic events in Charleston, South Carolina on Wednesday, June 17, 2015.

10 years ago (2005) there was Katrina, which saw the United States as a struggling, incompetent, nation that could not save one of its own cities. The country did not want to hear anything George W. Bush had to say after that. Oil wars be damned!

Now, 10 years after Katrina, in 2015, there is Charleston. 9 completely innocent, God-fearing Christians are murdered by a white man simply for the color of their skin. This event appears to show the United States is a nation that is greatly divided and full of irrational and violent hate toward the innocent, the weak, and the defenseless. Is it possible the rest of the world will not want to hear the United States on its high-horse about terrorism, when the United States creates its own?

War on Terror, War on Drugs, Banker Bailouts, Income Inequality, the Old stealing food from the young through transfer payments, Culture Wars, hysteria over Muslims, over black people, over non-European immigrants, cops beating up children... the United States is coming apart at the seams, for all the world to see.

This was a well-fed, car-owning, clean water drinking, electricity-using, mall-shopping American white male with every advantage the world has to offer, at his disposal. Yet, in his head, it is black people, attending a Church (some are just old women), who welcomed him into their worship, that are somehow the most dangerous threat to his well-being, that required him to murder them all?

It is only going to get worse as the effects of Peak Oil continue to strangle the hope and extravagant entitlement of those who expect to have it all, namely the American degenerates.

The world will have no sympathy.

[dissident]

Now, 10 years after Katrina, in 2015, there is Charleston. 9 completely innocent, God-fearing Christians are murdered by a white man simply for the color of their skin. This event appears to show the United States is a nation that is greatly divided and full of irrational and violent hate toward the innocent, the weak, and the defenseless.

This is the central point. It's the result of the American worship of the "winner" and hate for the "loser". A dog-eat-dog cult of oligarch market primacy with roots in the beliefs of a bunch of lunatics who ran off to the New World. The so-called Puritan "work ethic" of God loves those that make money. As with other religious extremism it is a gross perversion that brings with it grotesque inferences such as: if you don't make money then God shuns you and you can go and die homeless under a bridge. The impact of society and especially established elites on the individual and his true level of freedom is systematically ignored.

I am quite sure this white punk was all frothed into a lather by the recent black riots and protests sparked by US police murder of blacks. How dare the "lower" classes of "losers" who are not "blessed with God's love" dare to disturb the "peace".

Things are going south for America. That is one of the reasons why it is itching to trigger a war with Russia. The brainless American elites think they will profit like they did during WWI and WWII while all the costs will stay abroad. They dream that they will also polarize Americans to focus on a single external "enemy" and divert attention from the rot at home (including the disappearance of middle class level jobs).

[Outcast_Searcher]

This was a well-fed, car-owning, clean water drinking, electricity-using, mall-shopping American white male with every advantage the world has to offer, at his disposal. Yet, in his head, it is black people, attending a Church (some are just old women), who welcomed him into their worship, that are somehow the most dangerous threat to his well-being, that required him to murder them all?

It is only going to get worse as the effects of Peak Oil continue to strangle the hope and extravagant entitlement of those who expect to have it all, namely the American degenerates.

Yes, because any crazy person acting out is caused by peak oil. The crazy homeless guy in the gaming store I was in last week (another evil white guy) who repeatedly yelled threats to cut off people's heads (he was scary enough that we called the cops) was definitely due to -- peak oil, since he had few economic advantages. (After all, not enough money to buy gasoline is a constant lament of many peaker/doomer types).

What shall we do now? Hide under our beds?

[Hawkcreek]

What ticks me off is that the perverted acts of one loonie are used as an excuse for any number of things.

Of course, the gun control card gets played --- there will be a call for more police - who will need to be more heavily armed and militarized-- the "hate" crime sentences will be increased, etc, etc.

But the money for social workers, mental health counselors, and education will never be increased. That is a "liberal" agenda. It might take money out of the pockets of a CEO somewhere. And the conditions that breed this type of idiot will become more and more entrenched.

Yeah, I am one of those who believe that people can be made better than they are. I say "can" be, but I don't really have any faith anymore that it will ever happen.

[PrestonSturges]

And the conditions that breed this type of idiot will become more and more entrenched.

Go to any right wing blog and you will read people's fantasies about forming death squads and killing their liberal neighbors, and it will always be framed as self defense. Until the Boston bombing there was much talk about how they were going to build IEDs and kill cops, and by "they" I mean white Republicans. This behavior seems to be universally accepted, so that when someone like this kid Roof starts telling everyone about killing people, he's just one of a million people saying this on a given day.

[Sixstrings]

Go to any right wing blog and you will read people's fantasies about forming death squads and killing their liberal neighbors, and it will always be framed as self defense. Until the Boston bombing there was much talk about how they were going to build IEDs and kill cops, and by "they" I mean white Republicans. This behavior seems to be universally accepted, so that when someone like this kid Roof starts telling everyone about killing people, he's just one of a million people saying this on a given day.

Yep, you're right. Anyone on racist forums ought to be sick at their stomach right now, at what happened in Charleston. THIS is what their hatred has wrought.

It's wrong, it's not morally right, this HATE is not Christian.

Internet is so toxic anyway, it really ought to change. Forums should have rules about civility. People should be polite and nice to each other. Because otherwise, internet forums and facebook and twitter and news comments sections are an echo chamber and it's like a feeding frenzy where everybody rushes to see who can be the rudest and most anti-social, just because it's "the internet."

(don't know what my point is, other than ugly hate and bigotry and violent talk should be unacceptable and socially shunned, it's not okay just because it's on the net -- call it "political correctness" or liberal or whatever one wants to call it, or call it Christian and being a good person, but that's the side I'm on. Against hate and inhumanity and violence.)

[SeaGypsy]

Is there any history since the internet has been around about American forum posters going postal? I can recall the Unabomber was somewhat of a lobbyist before switching to actual terrorism to male his points. Brevik isn't American. Apparently the general form of American mass murderers is of very poor communication ability, mental health issues. Us intellects capable of hashing out arguments on a forum like this are not the same people doing the killing. Unless what a poster says is provocative to evil, how polite or otherwise posters are is irrelavent to this issue.

[Sixstrings]

Is there any history since the internet has been around about American forum posters going postal?

I'm thinking about the thing with isil, how young people are getting radicalized on the net. And now we see this happen, on the race issue. There has not been a history of it being a problem in the past, I think it's a more recent thing -- isil, radical islam, and now maybe violent racism / skinheads / etc.

I can recall the Unabomber was somewhat of a lobbyist before switching to actual terrorism to male his points.

If extremists have their own forums, then I assume it becomes an echo chamber, and that's what is not good. But objectively, "echo chambers" can be off the net, as well, going back to Jonestown and cults and militia compounds and such.

how polite or otherwise posters are is irrelavent to this issue.

Fair enough. It's just my opinion though, we all know people are ruder and more anti-social "on the internet." Or a lot of them are, anyway. It's a known thing about the internet.

It's just my opinion SG, people can call me politically correct if they want to, but I don't think blatant ugly bigoted hate should be allowed on moderated forums. Whatever the topic is. In Russia, the hate is about gays, and increasingly about Americans and the West and their social media fuels it and fuels and fuels it.

And in Russia, gay people get killed an attacked, there have been horrible incidents. It's because of the hate culture.

I'm just saying the hate should stop, and bigotry, whether it's on the net or in a cult in the "real world" or wherever it is.

(p.s. about general politeness, I'm just saying a lot of internet discourse is toxic as it is, so just imagine a racist forum or something. )

edit: I think the point I'm trying to make is about the danger of "echo chambers." And moderate voices getting rudely shouted down / bullied by extremists, until it's just extremists left and then it becomes an echo chamber. Echo chambers are not good, whatever the topic is.

[Sixstrings]

I don't know what my point is, other than something is screwy and the issue should be addressed. Not saying censorship, per se.

From news reports, it sounds like he radicalized "from the internet." He was not actually in some militia group or kkk group or whatever, in "the real world."

The whole West, Russia too, has already been having a problem with muslim teenagers getting "radicalized on the internet."

It's some kind of peculiar problem with young people and the internet. Maybe there should be something taught in schools, about the issue, to prevent youth getting radicalized.

Charleston shooting: Dylann Roof's stepmother defends 'smart' boy 'drawn in by internet evil'

“He went to catechism, he went to church,” Ms Mann said. “He was locked in his room looking up bad stuff on the computer.”

In an interview with the New York Daily News, she said: “Something on the computer drew him in – this is Internet evil. We just thought he was a lazy, this-generation kind of kid.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-stepmother-of-dylann-roof-defends-the-smart-boy-she-raised-having-been-affected-by-internet-evil-10334590.html

Maybe the schools should have some kind of better social studies / history, to teach WHY racism and bigotry are so evil. If people aren't going to church anymore and parents are absentee, then somebody has to teach some basic morality and empathy, maybe that has to be the schools.

I can't put my finger on it, but all the news about the kids that get radicalized to join isil, it sounds the same -- the parents are mystified, "they were on the computer."

So what can be done about that? Should the worst sites, racist or extremist muslim, just be outright censored and banned? Could there be education in schools? This dylan roof thing seems isolated, but otherwise we've got a whole darn war going on in the middle east that's been entirely fueled with this extremist internet stuff.

So what can be done about it, if parents won't be responsible and aware of what their kids are doing "on the computer?"

[SeaGypsy]

Recently my government has been blocking some extreme sites, but the selection is seemingly arbitrary, the block takes about a minute to kick in & is extremely easy to bypass. Sensorship isn't the answer. The problem we are discussing is about the very fragmentation of the society as mentioned in the OP.

[sparky]

.
Timothy McVeigh was very literate and didn't blog

McVeigh first and last address to the court before sentencing was

" If the Court please, I wish to use the words of Justice Brandeis dissenting in Olmstead to speak for me.
He wrote, 'Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher.
For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example....That's all I have."


Before the execution, Nigh said McVeigh was "in amazingly good spirits," "calm" and "acting himself."

He slept a few hours Saturday night before he was moved Sunday morning, June 9.
he was placed in an isolation cell a short walk away from the execution chamber.

"He was able to look up in the sky for the first time in years, and see the moon directly," Nigh said.

Later, Dunne said McVeigh was "sleeping normally," but didn't elaborate.
The Buffalo News printed several letters from McVeigh on the day of his execution in which he called his bombing a "legit tactic" in his war against what he believes is an oppressive federal government.
He wrote that he was "sorry" people died - but added, "That's the nature of the beast."

Despite last-minute hints of sympathy for his victims, McVeigh never wavered from his radical-right convictions.
The 33-year-old Gulf War veteran did not say a word in the final minutes before his execution
McVeigh strained to look around the facility trying to make eye contact with the various witnesses

The execution began when a prison official said: "We are ready."
The warden read the execution order and a U.S. Marshal checked the phone lines to make sure last-minute reprieves had not been granted by President Bush or the Supreme Court.

McVeigh was not expected to request clemency, and did not.

As he took his final breaths, he made no additional movement and was described by one media witness as "seeming proud." Other witnesses said McVeigh lifted his head and looked at them and then looked at the ceiling. He died with his eyes open at 7:14 a.m.

the location of his ashes is kept secret

His chosen death poem was "Invictus" ,

"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul."

[Sixstrings]

I have CNN on, they were talking about the fact there were warning signs that everyone ignored. That he talked about violence, plus espoused racist views. It's just common sense, if a 20 year old is burning american flags and gets into racism and is into guns and is doing specific violent crazy talk, then that's a lot of red flags.

They were saying on CNN that the common thread with all these incidents is that red flags are ignored, most especially talk of violence.

I don't think this tragedy is due to peak oil. But yes in troubled economic times / disruption then there's a rise in white supremacists / skinheads / neo nazis.

15,000 march in Charleston, against hate and to honor the victims:

Charleston, S.C. -- This is how the city of Charleston handles unspeakable tragedy.

On Sunday evening, hours after Emanuel A.M.E. Church opened its doors for the first service following the killing of nine of its congregants Wednesday, thousands in Charleston took to the streets in a show of support and solidarity.

A line of people packed Arthur Ravenel Jr. Bridge, stretching more than two miles from the town of Mount Pleasant to the city of Charleston. Observers on the bridge, and thousands more at the base, joined hands to create a "unity chain," then held a moment of silence that lasted five minutes in honor of the fallen.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/21/charelston-shooting-bridg_n_7633190.html

[Sixstrings]

Karl Rove: Only Way To Stop The Violence Is To Repeal Second Amendment

When Chris Wallace asked Rove how we can, “stop the violence,” the long-time gun-rights advocate stated that we have made great strides as a nation in empathizing with the victims of these types of shootings, but the only way to guarantee they will stop is to “remove guns from society.”

WALLACE: How do we stop the violence?

ROVE: I wish I had an easy answer for that, but I don’t think there’s an easy answer

We saw an act of evil. Racist, bigoted evil, and to me the amazing thing is that it was met with grief and love. Think about how far we’ve come since 1963. The whole weight of the government throughout the South was to impede finding and holding and bringing to justice the men who perpetrated the [Birmingham] bombing.

And here, we saw an entire state, an entire community, an entire nation come together, grieving as one and united in the belief that this was an evil act, so we’ve come a long way.

Now maybe there’s some magic law that will keep us from having more of these. I mean basically the only way to guarantee that we will dramatically reduce acts of violence involving guns is to basically remove guns from society, and until somebody gets enough “oomph” to repeal the Second Amendment, that’s not going to happen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSL7ypRcwlQ

Video, looks like Rove and Wallace are honestly sympathetic to the idea of more gun control:

Karl Rove: Only Way To Stop The Violence Is To Repeal Second Amendment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSL7ypRcwlQ

Rove and Wallace are right, I don't know about 2nd amendment repeal, but something could be done.

Public education programs, if nothing else. High taxes on guns, why not? And then offer a tax break if the gun buyer agrees to take a gun safety class, and somewhere in that class someone should be teaching folk not to give their crazy prozaced up 20 year old a gun for his birthday. For goodness sake.

Somewhere in that gun safety class, someone ought to be talking about how to watch for red flags and warning signs, of mental illness, and when to take a friend or loved one's gun away from them. In this dylan roof case, I heard on cnn that someone had taken his gun but wound up giving it back to him even though they "knew he wasn't right" in the head.

Government hasn't tried anything, at all. There's got to be something that can be done, that would be constitutional, no?

Karl Rove’s Second Amendment shocker:
“The only way to guarantee that we would dramatically reduce acts of violence involving guns is to basically remove guns from society”
http://www.salon.com/2015/06/21/karl_roves_second_amendment_shocker_the_only_way_to_guarantee_that_we_would_dramatically_reduce_acts_of_violence_involving_guns_is_to_basically_remove_guns_from_society/

Karl Rove vs. the 2nd Amendment

Guns don’t kill people, the Constitution kills people, at least according to Karl Rove, Republican strategist and architect of George W. Bush’s election and reelection as president.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/06/karl_rove_vs_the_2nd_amendment.html

Obama on Confederate flag: 'Good point, Mitt'
http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/06/21/obama-mitt-romney-confederate-flag-south-carolina-charleston-shootings/29068409/

[onlooker]

Living all my life in this country, some things I really like about it, others not so much. Guns has been a problem for me. Now I realize I am not a hunter so I may lack empathy with hunters. But I can say if we just enforce laws that already exist and make them universal throughout the country it would help. Background checks, certain guns cannot be sold ie. assault weapons (cause are you hunting dinosaurs or something), a waiting period. I do not know if this law exists but making people who able to buy guns at dealerships within state where they live sounds good to me. Now of course the Internet is a problem too in so much as you can purchase a firearm without any of the safeguards mentioned above. Also, the community and family teaching kids that violence is not the way.

[Tanada]

[ROCKMAN]

onlooker - Some insight from a skilled marksman and former hunter: forget the focus on
"assault weapons"...it's irrelevant. Here's a rather cold but true fact none the less: a skilled Texas deer hunter armed with a bolt action Swedish Mauser manufactured in 1917 (like mine that I paid $89 for) could sit on a roof top in downtown Houston and kill 100+ people before the cops could even figure out where he's shooting from. And that's the problem: you can't stop insane people from committing insane acts. The maniac that shot those folks in the church could have killed them just as easily with a bag of Molotov cocktails. Just as those innocent young black girls that were murdered without a single shot fired at their church all those decades ago.

I always find it a bit disturbing when the act of one maniac is used by folks to spin their own political agenda be it liberal or conservative. In Houston we have a disproportionate number of violent crimes committed by blacks and Hispanics. So is it fair for our local brand of racists to tag both populations as evil? The primary reason those innocent folks at the church were slaughtered wasn't because of racism, gun laws, political ideology, etc. The primary reason was that an maniac had delusions that led him to act violently.

So exactly how does anyone propose to prevent the mentally ill from being delusional and acting out? Especially if they haven't been already tagged as insane. Gun sale laws won't do it because there's an endless supply of illegally sold weapons in this country. And even if you did how would you prevent a maniac from getting behind the wheel of a car, running over and killing even more then those shot in the church? There's over 300 million in our country. At anyone time if there was only 0.00001% of the population that are homicidal maniacs that's still 30 of them. How do we ferret out that tiny percent of the population? You can't stop them from acting out violently by passing any law.

Granted there are still a great many more hate filled racists in this country then 0.00001% but they aren't acting out with that level of violence we just saw. The sad truth is that there are many terrible events in life that cannot be prevented.

[onlooker]

I have to concede their is much truth in what your saying Rock. Not too much can be done about a disturbed person going on a rampage just like a terrorist doing the same.

[KaiserJeep]

This thread does NOT belong in "Peak oil studies, reports & models", rather it should be in the Americas thread.

Before anybody goes too far down the road on the "racial hatred" vehicle, note that:

1) Both racial intolerance and gun violence are way down in all statistics. The only thing that is up is the reporting of such incidents. The take-away message is things are improving. Before the Civil Rights movement, these things happened more and were reported a lot less.

2) The recent election of a black man as POTUS has poured oil on the flames or racial intolerance. It seems that everything that Barack Obama does makes things worse than they were before. I have long understood what many simply refuse to accept: the social policies of the US Democratic Party deliberately and definitely promote racial strife. This happens because there exist a great many race baiters within the Democratic Party, and racial strife enables their personal political power.

Don't believe me? Answer these questions:

Would Barack Obama have been elected, with his lack of all qualifications for the office of POTUS, if he were white?

Are there not prominent race baiters within the US Democratic Party, such as the Reverend Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? Do they make things better or worse?

Does not the US Democratic Party have a record of repressing minorities that stretches back to before the US Civil War? Were not all former KKK members in Congress also Democrats?

I UNDERSTAND that most of you want to deny these undeniable facts, and why you want to do so. But I could never be a Democrat, because I hate racists.

[ennui2]

2) The recent election of a black man as POTUS has poured oil on the flames or racial intolerance. It seems that everything that Barack Obama does makes things worse than they were before.

Yeah. Just think of all the racism he unleashed by being born-black. Shame him.

Does not the US Democratic Party have a record of repressing minorities that stretches back to before the US Civil War? Were not all former KKK members in Congress also Democrats?

Stop talking about party demographics from 50-100 years ago. The current GOP is largely made up of disillusioned southern democrats.

[KaiserJeep]

2) The recent election of a black man as POTUS has poured oil on the flames or racial intolerance. It seems that everything that Barack Obama does makes things worse than they were before.

Yeah. Just think of all the racism he unleashed by being born-black. Shame him.

I certainly don't think that. I actually believe that Obama is a typical Chicago race-baiting politician, just as is Jesse Jackson.

Does not the US Democratic Party have a record of repressing minorities that stretches back to before the US Civil War? Were not all former KKK members in Congress also Democrats?

Stop talking about party demographics from 50-100 years ago. The current GOP is largely made up of disillusioned southern democrats.

You know, present day party demographics just does not support your premise:



..because actual party memberships disclose the same pattern in both the North and the South. Metro areas including the inner cities and minority suburbs are predominately Democratic. Business centers, largely white suburbs, and rural areas are predominately Republican. New England, the birthplace of Abolition and the original base of the Republican Party , is awash in blue ink.

The Republicans don't really give a damn about racial politics. They have been all about racial equality since Abraham Lincoln founded the Republican party in the fires of Abolition, and went after those racist Jacksonian Democrats. Nothing has changed much in a century and a half, as much as you don't want to believe so.

I repeat, Democrats are the present haven for American Racists. Something equally unpalatatible for you to chew on: Most of the racist Democrats are members of minority groups, as is Obama.



I know you just don't want to believe it. Try this: Look up the voting records (the appropriations voting records) of the Congressional Black Caucus members. You will find out that their votes are for sale just as are virtually all Congress Critters and Senabores. The CBC has no clear voting record in favor of minority issues, and they are all of them Democrats.

You can either live in the real world, or deny it. I suspect that you are one of those people who much prefers your imaginary or virtual version, a simplistic and entirely mistaken reflection of the real world.

Politicians lie all the time. Democrats lie about race more than any other topic. Get over it.