[americandream]

I have noticed a tendency amongst certain members who disagree with a certain historical perspective to seek to use the forum rules as a stick to impose censorship by the back door.

Due process contemplates that rules of engagement anywhere cannot foreclose a comprehensive analytical view point, sufficiently comprehensive in addressing ALL the facets of human social relationships, from the family to historical tendencies.

I that vein, it would be good to afford views that you would not rather see, leeway despite an apparent non relatedness. Marxism covers all aspêcts of the consequences of our civilisations from how we plunder our respources, each other to our planet.

I selectively pick my threads in addition so this hysteria when I do post is quite perplexing.

[SeaGypsy]

Maybe something to do with your spamming hell out of the forums.

[americandream]

Maybe something to do with your spamming hell out of the forums.

I just itemised my engagement with threads and get your routine hysterical knee jerk. Please. You may have an aversion to progressive ideas....do not use the rules to stifle them. They are not there for your selective stick waving.

[KaiserJeep]

You are incredibly, unbelievably, and laughingly obsessed with the writings of a couple of obscure 19th Century economists. Although when written the works of Marx and Engels were mildly enlightening, they were mired in 19th century thought, and among the 20th century developments they never considered and never understood were:

1) American Capitalism as it developed after WW2, including a huge and empowered Middle Class, each individual of which controlled more real wealth than the average 18th-century "aristocrat".
2) A fossil-fueled world with 7+ Billion people in it, and approaching resource shortages of damn near everything we need and use.
3) The incredible efficiencies enabled by digital electronics, present in everything from the watch on your wrist to the jetliner you ride.
4) The potential of space, including effectively endless energy, near unlimited living space, and incredible amounts of raw materials, water, and gases easily accessible once space habitats are constructed.

The 21st century expansion of humanity off this small, squalid, and limited globe into an environment that has almost unlimited potential will be the first Darwinian sort of humanity into winners and losers that has happened in generations. The Earth-focussed and Earth-obsessed will all die miserably and uncomfortably, too many people fighting fiercely over too few resources. The bright light of civilization will illuminate our Solar System, the domain of the new privileged many (the Trillions) of the new Capitalists.

The Socialists are the Darwinian discards, unable to compete.

[americandream]

Fair comments KJ. Thats what I would rather people do than hysterically call Marxist social relational perspectives, spam.

You are correct. Capitalism is indeed a beacon of Reason following on from ages of high subjectivity in superstition laden backwardness. However it has the seeds of this backwardness whereas scientific socialism will build on capitalism, preserving its best and jettisoning its detritus.

The climate front is one area in need of remedying as it peak resourcing.

[KaiserJeep]

Perhaps you can enlighten me. I have seen and read about dozens of countries where it was claimed (usually by the despot in charge) that they were building a Socialist Workers Paradise. Multiple flavors of Communism, Socialism, Maoism, etc. Most such governments quickly went extinct.

Here in the 21st Century, I don't actually know of a Socialist Workers Paradise. I question whether it is a valid evolutionary alternative, or another of the endless dead branches, alternatives that simply will never work.

Who practices the Scientific Socialism of which you speak?

[americandream]

Perhaps you can enlighten me. I have seen and read about dozens of countries where it was claimed (usually by the despot in charge) that they were building a Socialist Workers Paradise. Multiple flavors of Communism, Socialism, Maoism, etc. Most such governments quickly went extinct.

Here in the 21st Century, I don't actually know of a Socialist Workers Paradise. I question whether it is a valid evolutionary alternative, or another of the endless dead branches, alternatives that simply will never work.

Who practices the Scientific Socialism of which you speak?

Nobody. The problem being that people view scientific socialism as a form of vengeful justice. Murdering the bad capitalists to replace them with a munificient despot who then promptly loots the the treasury.

Scientific socialism is basically about the tendencies inherent in systems and what the usage of modernity as a sustainable tool means in terms of our social relations.

Capitalists are not evil conspirators, the system they excel in however has inevitable tendencies. When evolution endowed us with consciousness, it was this that took us to modernity and presumably, this will take us to the next phase in modernity.

Revolutions should not be mindless bloodletting exercises but calculated ascendency up the civilisation ladder. To some extent a little of this underlay the establishment of meritorious republicanism in America....it was quickly attacked by reactionary landowners in the south but prevailed as meritorious constitutionalism is superior to inherited feudalism.

Thus we move in steps to the fully rational man.

[KaiserJeep]

Well, you have one theory, I have another. I think American Capitalism is in decline, and has been since the 1970's. I think that our exceptional form of Constitutional Republic government is also in decline. We are of course, still the richest country that has ever been and possibly will ever be. We remain a beacon of hope to those oppressed under other economic systems and forms of government.

But I believe that for decades to come, the American lifestyle will continue to slip, the country will continue to decline, and the human race will increase in both numbers and misery, until the final choice can be made: leave a dying planet, or die upon it.

[americandream]

Well, you have one theory, I have another. I think American Capitalism is in decline, and has been since the 1970's. I think that our exceptional form of Constitutional Republic government is also in decline. We are of course, still the richest country that has ever been and possibly will ever be. We remain a beacon of hope to those oppressed under other economic systems and forms of government.

But I believe that for decades to come, the American lifestyle will continue to slip, the country will continue to decline, and the human race will increase in both numbers and misery, until the final choice can be made: leave a dying planet, or die upon it.

Capitalisms ultimate tendency is the destruction of its home nest. That is the danger with combining the tools of Reason with residual subjectivity.

[radon1]

We remain a beacon of hope to those oppressed under other economic systems ...

Fundamental mistake. Another failure of the persistent American ego-centrism.

Half or more of the world's population are outside the American-centric industrial capitalist system and most of them have no hope of joining it other that at a level close to subsistence. Bangladesh is producing like 80% of the world's shirts, a fascinating achievement in itself, but has no hope of getting out of utter poverty. China joined the system earlier and is at a bit higher level for the parts of its population, but is already experiencing severe problems having attempted to do something along the lines of "a consumer economy". South Korea joined earlier yet, and is at the third of the US income per capita, and has been stuck there for decades and will be stuck there forever. Japan, even an earlier joiner, has been at 2/3s of the US income and will be there forever too.

If unnoticed, the Fed, the world's de facto central bank, has been running a negative rates policy for years now, of which the QEs are an equivalent, and despite that, the inclusion of further people into the system is failing (on a side note, with that, the "overpopulation/overconsumption" issues may be mitigated too).

Thus, the only thing that the American capitalism is able to deliver is that static, hierarchical income pyramid described above, and even then, provided that that "the US" do not pull the plug from underneath it by somehow artificially destroying the dollar's status of the "reserve currency", if this is at all possible. So, the American capitalism is not a beacon of hope, this is a sign of total, irreversible hopelessness for a vast majority of the world's population. And a point of celebration for a small self-congratulating minority.

That's why some obscure old theories, not necessarily flawless themselves, that do explain why the things develop in the way they develop, remain relevant today, if not being a glimmer of hope for many. Along with other idiotic ancient stuff, like classic mechanics, Greek philosophy and so on.

[Cog]

If you don't like the American system, the door is only an air flight away.

[americandream]

If you don't like the American system, the door is only an air flight away.

Since when is the web America or did you miss the memo on the extent of the cyber system?

[americandream]

radon

The basis of American meritorious constitutionalism was a robust development for its age. Lets not forget the dire state of birth privilege where poverty was a function of birth. These were the same progressive values that not only drove the rise of bourgeoisie liberalism but also that great progressive struggle, the Sovietisation of social relations.

The Soviets withstood onslaught after onslaught for 70 years but eventually succumbed to the global bourgeoisie order...unfortunately for us all.....given the climate clock ticking away in the background. To that extent, merit based privilege is a double edged sword. It freed us from the arbitrary hand of hereditary privilege....but also opened the door to the possible destruction of our home planet. That is the nature of this system. It gives with one hand and takes with the other. Overall it has progressive roots but in the finality, it comes with a price tag.

[radon1]

If you don't like the American system, the door is only an air flight away.

You probably think that your one-liners are smart, but they are usually pretty silly. So silly, that they don't normally warrant an answer. But as you seem to be trying to challenge me, I will respond.

I am living in Russia and happy with it. Despite that, I am a part of the American system, because there are no other systems that exist in the world at this time, and there is no way around it absent tectonic shift in what is called "social relations". Air flights won't help. Had you a been more regular visitor on this website, you'd have known it better.

I am not unhappy with the American system and I am not criticizing it. I am praising it. It created the most beautiful of the worlds that existed so far, seemingly a fantasy land from the point of view of our ancestors, and probably exceeded their expectations in many ways.

But you have to know your limitations. You want to pretend that you are a Jesus and tell the people of the world that you are going to feed them with your five loaves of bread. And the people mostly believe you. But you are not Jesus and you will not be able to feed them. You are cheating them, and, possibly, you are cheating yourself. You are unable to deliver.

From the force of progress, the system in question is gradually becoming a stumbling block to further development. As time goes on, numerous human beings who could have hope for more fulfilling lives may be stuck with this system in place and be lost in the middle of nowhere.

[KaiserJeep]

radon1, when I said that we were a beacon of hope for the rest of the world, I was referring to this plaque on Lady Liberty:

....and the long line of people who immigrate to our country continuously, because this is a better place to live.

My next door neighbor here in Silicon Valley is a Russian who owns a small software company - less than a dozen employees.

We have about 20 million undocumented Hispanics from South and Central America, yet our Southern Border remains open. As does our Northern Border, while a steady stream of Asians flows through Canada and ends up here.

We have 327 million citizens and another 30 million undocumented. We have an overabundance of food, and what we consider to be our "Poor" are given food, housing, and medical care.

Those 357 million people are what you are calling a "small minority". But nothing prevents the rest of the world from adopting the form of Constitutional Republic practiced here, except their own apathy and the greed of those who run the countries they are in - such as the criminal oligarchs which run Russia.

If you don't like what you have, and you don't want to come here, you could always start a revolution. We did.

[radon1]

Those 357 million people are what you are calling a "small minority". But nothing prevents the rest of the world from adopting the form of Constitutional Republic practiced here, except their own apathy and the greed of those who run the countries they are in - such as the criminal oligarchs which run Russia.

I agree with your words regarding the political arrangements and do not dispute them. I disputed the "economy" and "American Capitalism" part.

357 million are, of course, a small minority. Even golden billion is a small minority in the world of 7+ billion. A good part of Russia belongs to this small minority too, at least so far.

[dissident]

If you don't like the American system, the door is only an air flight away.

You know, that is exactly what I think the 3% of Russian NATO sycophants, the liberasts, should do. They should pack their bags and bugger on off to their promised land. They can then proceed to bitch and whine in the USA, Canada or the EU. But NATO thinks this 3% should rule over all of Russia.

[americandream]

The loss of Sovietised social relations was a great loss for all of humankind. Granted, the more barbarically conscious who relish decadence and mayhem will disagree. The slide to a degraded planet as we consume our way towards a global trash heap says it all.

There is no way that capitalism is even remotely close to the Soviets in terms of the scale of the high accultarising process.

[Cog]

Russia if full of alcoholics with dreams of grandeur. Miami and Los Angeles combined has a larger GDP than all of Russia. Enjoy your vodka comrade.

[americandream]

Russia if full of alcoholics with dreams of grandeur. Miami and Los Angeles combined has a larger GDP than all of Russia. Enjoy your vodka comrade.

When I read these comments and your comments in general, it is like watching someone beat himself senseless whilst yelling out for help.

Measuring an earthly systems worth by the speed at which it is fouling its planet is possibly as tragic a spectacle as one can present in this day and age.