[C8]

If there has been one big trend that has not slowed down one bit in the last 25 years, it is the trend to move everything to computers. It began with military, businesses, then to home communications, etc.

Now people rely in computers to find their way to shops, transfer money, job hunt, etc. With the push to make an "internet of things" there may come a day where you can't buy a refrigerator, stove, blender, kidney machine, etc. that s NOT dependent and controlled by computers or the internet.

But it is even more severe in the business and government sector where power grids, financial transactions, drone targeting, warehouse stocking, traffic lights, train speeds, airline flight paths, medical records, etc. are already becoming dominated by the internet.

The question that comes to my mind is: Is this wise to put all of the eggs we need to run civilization into the internet basket?

The analogy that comes to mind is of the cheetah. It has evolved over thousands of years to catch only on thing- gazelle. It has evolved to becoming so specialized that it is on an evolutionary branch that dead ends. If the gazelle dies the cheetah dies.

A nation could conceivably wage war on another nation and brings to riots in the street just by taking over its infrastructure and downing it like a plane. Or an EMP could cause chaos in a matter of hours.

Can the internet (or our systems) be designed to be more resilient? Are we specializing too much? What are the consequences of moving everything to the internet so we rely on computers for everything and social survival? Are we moving our social system out on an evolutionary limb like the cheetah?

any an all insights are appreciated

[AgentR11]

The internet is pretty resilient as long as you accept less than 99% uptime. As long as some modest wait time is acceptable for those times where failures occur, either battle or weather related, then it's fine. And its efficiency and global character can make a lot of the needed power-down requirements realistically possible. Whether thats from working online, to ordering goods online as opposed to making a trip to the store for every little thing.

If I order a box of dry noodles, it shows up at my door, but the only energy cost associated with its delivery, was just its weight and space on a truck that would make that route regardless. That is incredibly efficient; as long as the net provides wide coverage access to a near unlimited number of vendors.

I also LIKE that this dependence makes war seriously uncomfortable for those that might choose to cause it. The net infiltrates all levels, you get used to being able to have a box from Shanghai show up in a few days on your doorstep anytime you feel like it. Without the net, this can't happen with J6P, and it can't happen for Bob the millionaire or politician. So everyone in the civilized world has a "comfort" stake involved with maintaining the peace enough for the net to function.

[PrestonSturges]

Can the internet (or our systems) be designed to be more resilient? Are we specializing too much? What are the consequences of moving everything to the internet so we rely on computers for everything and social survival? Are we moving our social system out on an evolutionary limb like the cheetah?

any an all insights are appreciated

All of this technology has very weak (or practically none) security. It is possible to hack laptops, routers, televisions, and security cameras to spy on you, and soon it will be your toaster as well. If someone has a house full of the latest gadgets, it is already possible for a motivated and patient hacker to turn their life into a reality tv show.

[Pops]

I'm much less of a Luddite than I once was, as Agent said, microprocessors are the path to greater efficiency (without resorting to the terminal efficiency of elimination).

I was more of a primitivist until recently. Seems to me that improvements have happened pretty fast in actual practical technologies Lately. PV, Lithium batteries, LEDs, tiny $5 computers like the Raspberry Pi and of course multi function phones are all reaching very practical levels.

EMP is a threat, but then before that, so was just the plain old A-Bomb, and before that the machine gun, the cutlass, blah, blah.

Buy a metal trash can, line it with cardboard to isolate it from the contents, stick in whatever electronics you deem necessary; spare electronics, replacement parts, etc. Seal the lid with some metallic duct tape then stick it in the bunker (or back of the garage).

LOL, not too worried about whomever spying on me through the refrigerator: Total Information Awareness and "see something - say something" is plenty powerful enough to take down civil liberty.

[AgentR11]

As long as they don't ask me to comment on said reality show, or expect me to not step on their cameras when I rummage through my attic, I frankly don't care.

I know some of yall think its a big deal, and I'm ok with that. But I've long since gone way past the "if you don't have anything to hide" excuse; I'm all the way to the point that I believe the authorities will create whatever evidence they feel they want for whatever purpose they wish; and they don't even need any evidence in the first place to completely wreck the modern life of any non multimillionaire they wish, at any time they wish, for any reason, or no reason at all other than amusement.

Heck, they generally can shoot and kill anyone they want with minimal consequences; usually just a transfer to another town's forces; so why pretend?

Course.. some might think I'm a doomer and discount my perception of reality. lol.

[PrestonSturges]

It's not a question of the state spying on you through your laptop and television, it's also copmanies compiling a huge dossier on everything including your favorite ice cream, religion, porn, reading habits, politics and then selling that information. And then there are also stalkers, internet trolls, and ex-spouses who can hack into your home via a dozen unprotected points.

[AgentR11]

It's not a question of the state spying on you through your laptop and television, it's also copmanies compiling a huge dossier on everything including your favorite ice cream, religion, porn, reading habits, politics and then selling that information. And then there are also stalkers, internet trolls, and ex-spouses who can hack into your home via a dozen unprotected points.

As long as they use it to sell me stuff that is fun.... It really doesn't bother me.

Heck, I use that feature to try to get the pretty Russian girl in the tight black dress to show on my advertising panel on PO. But the analytics are very touchy, so it gets bumped off whenever I talk about other stuff. GGRRRRRRR. I don't want to see your dumb Nissan cargo van, I want the pretty girl!!!

lol.

[Shaved Monkey]

Hopefully you will be able to download addblock to your fridge

[jedrider]

Hopefully you will be able to download addblock to your fridge

Yeah, I saw the fridge with the, now, huge LCD screen. Just imagine, I can be watching Fox News while deciding how to fatten up.

[Ibon]

I
I was more of a primitivist until recently. Seems to me that improvements have happened pretty fast in actual practical technologies Lately. PV, Lithium batteries, LEDs, tiny $5 computers like the Raspberry Pi and of course multi function phones are all reaching very practical levels.

I am still a ludite and I share C8's concern. I recognize the efficiency and resiliency of the internet and these positives but I see the cost in terms of the subjective effects this has on humans aligning all of their tasks through this cyber channel. It is having a huge dependency effect on all of us, particularly the emerging generations. It separates us too much from analog physical organic reality to the point that it blinds you from even understanding what you are missing.

I cannot deny the efficiency gains forces us to live with this so Instead of being simply against it in classic luddite fashion I would pose the question, how do we put up the proper firewalls against creating a society that is overly dependent on this technology?

It seems almost absurd to have to ask this, but how do we balance organic physical reality with the dominating effects that cyber reality is having on our current and future generations. Am I a luddite for even expressing this as a concern?

[Pops]

I recognize the efficiency and resiliency of the internet and these positives but I see the cost in terms of the subjective effects this has on humans aligning all of their tasks through this cyber channel.

The average American driver...average... drives 37 miles each and every day of the year - 35-54 male drivers ---on average--- drive 51.666 miles every day of the year including Christmas.

Not sure what the subjective effects of dependency on the cyber channel are, but if it can offset some of the real effects of dependency on cheap oil and aid moving to a lower energy world then I'm all for it.

[Newfie]

I recognize the efficiency and resiliency of the internet and these positives but I see the cost in terms of the subjective effects this has on humans aligning all of their tasks through this cyber channel.

The average American driver...average... drives 37 miles each and every day of the year - 35-54 male drivers ---on average--- drive 51.666 miles every day of the year including Christmas.

Not sure what the subjective effects of dependency on the cyber channel are, but if it can offset some of the real effects of dependency on cheap oil and aid moving to a lower energy world then I'm all for it.

I'm OK with them driving to work, one day a week...

Bertrand Russell
http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html


Like most of my generation, I was brought up on the saying: 'Satan finds some mischief for idle hands to do.' Being a highly virtuous child, I believed all that I was told, and acquired a conscience which has kept me working hard down to the present moment. But although my conscience has controlled my actions, my opinions have undergone a revolution. I think that there is far too much work done in the world, that immense harm is caused by the belief that work is virtuous, and that what needs to be preached in modern industrial countries is quite different from what always has been preached.

[onlooker]

Resurrecting this thread to highlight this all too real menace deriving from a digitally connected and reliant world
http://theweek.com/articles/441194/why- ... t-internet

Why World War III will be fought on the internet

[KaiserJeep]

I agree, time that we updated this thread. I was just marvelling at the Internet-connected, dual-camera refrigerators at the Fry's Electronics chain store.

These refigerators are bleeding edge, Cost range from $5800 to $11,000, and have medium-sized HDTV panels in one door:

Features vary, but these appliances can recognize humans, associate them with planned diets, and gently chide people who eat more than their calorie allowance. They can also plan menus and order foods online for delivery, and will keep a careful inventory of contents complete with freshness dates.

Meanwhile, if you really want to, you can sit on a kitchen stool and hold a voice-recognition type conversation with your appliance, surf the web, or watch entertainment. (The software for these chatty appliances is still half-baked, but remember I did say "bleeding edge".)

The concern mentioned in OL's message above is being addressed. Multi-level distributed grid management, microgrids and nanogrids, are the ways we are re-structuring the existing power grids to harden them against cyber attacks:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/the-smarter-grid/first-utilityscale-microgrid-in-us-enters-service
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/nanogrids-microgrids-and-big-data-the-future-of-the-power-grid

We are not doomed by cyber warfare, but we are in danger. We can adress and manage the risks, or hide from them:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/computing/it/an-optimistic-take-on-cybersecurity-from-qualcomms-alex-gantman

[Outcast_Searcher]

If there has been one big trend that has not slowed down one bit in the last 25 years, it is the trend to move everything to computers. It began with military, businesses, then to home communications, etc.

Now people rely in computers to find their way to shops, transfer money, job hunt, etc. With the push to make an "internet of things" there may come a day where you can't buy a refrigerator, stove, blender, kidney machine, etc. that s NOT dependent and controlled by computers or the internet.

...

Can the internet (or our systems) be designed to be more resilient? Are we specializing too much? What are the consequences of moving everything to the internet so we rely on computers for everything and social survival? Are we moving our social system out on an evolutionary limb like the cheetah?

any an all insights are appreciated

First, you're right that things of all types, especially things with any complexity, are getting more computerized. And overall, that certainly does create a heavy dependency on computers overall.

The implications for, for example, the brittleness of our stuff to a massive EMP event, are huge, unless I'm missing something. (i.e. we don't generally live in Faraday cages, and since stuff is made to the cost competitive, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of IC's for consumers are NOT hardened against things like strong EMP).

Some thoughts:

1). Things don't HAVE to be all on the internet. There is a big difference between one or more IC chips to make a product smarter or more efficent, and having it hooked up to (or worse, dependent upon) the internet. Examples:

a). Modern cars. There are LOTS of chips in cars. For reliability and fixability (diagnostics) this is a very good thing. When was the last time a modern car you owned wouldn't start due to cold or hot weather? This used to happen a LOT back in the 70's and earlier. When was the last time your auto mechanic incorrectly diagnosed a "complex" problem multiple times, costing you a lot of time and stress hoping he got it right next time? This also used to happen a LOT in the 70's and earlier. Today the chips help our cars run and last longer (like for fuel injection, etc), they help diagnose problems (things like a modern transmission may have MANY chips -- a whole tree-network structure of chips). So you might not like the bill, but generally a competent mechanic can get it right without a lot of trial and error, with a modern car. Also, your car isn't actually dependent on the internet (except perhaps to get some software fixes). The chips talk to the local tools your mechanic uses. Your GPS Nav system is talking to the GPS satellite system -- which is NOT the internet. (Notice how much more reliable GPS is than the internet. If your GPS unit is working, you can almost ALWAYS get reliable Nav coordinates).

b). Appliances. You can get them with internet stuff, but at least so far, that's your choice. My year old washing machine has a chip (or several) and I have less control over it (i.e. turning it off doesn't completely reset it in all cases, as I learned the first time I used it. But it saves soap an water and supposedly is smart enough to get the clothes cleaner with less energy by analyzing various things. And it's not talking to the internet (since no one gave it my WI-FI password, I can be pretty sure of that).

2). Lots of things on the internet can make our life better. I'm fine with that as long as I can CHOOSE when I want that to happen. I can choose Netflix or not. To have internet with my computer or not. To buy a smartphone or not. To have a WIFI enabled TV or not. Etc. Given how unreliable the internet can be, and the increasing danger and prevalence of malicious software, I'm kind of concerned about society becoming TOO dependent on the internet. Examples:

a). Recent global Wannacry attack. This damn thing spread without people even doing stupid things like opening unknown email files or downloading unknown stuff to their PC's. That's pretty nasty.

b). Given all the issues, I spend a lot of time and a meaningful amount of money protecting my PC's. And learning how as things evolve. Drive cloners (hardware and software), knowing how to swap various drives in various types of PC's after different unresolvable software problems (including such attacks), backing up key user data seperately and frequently enough, are all needed tasks / skills for safe computing -- even at home -- IF you have lots of data that is important to you on your computer(s). Oh, and keeping all such data offline and the hell AWAY from your computers, lest some future Wannacry thing wipes out everything connected that it can touch, etc. (And I don't think I'd be doing all this if I didn't have a career in computers. So one can imagine how vulnerable the average computer user is who only knows to click on things, etc.

3). Our infrastructure. I get incadescent levels of rage every time I think of the fact that our idiot lawmakers allow things like our electric grid and all sorts of other key utilities be exposed to the internet, so some companies can save a few bucks.
Given that we now KNOW there is cyberterrorism and a certain level or risk from this and do nearly NOTHING -- we're just asking to get smacked right in the face hard at some point. This is one reason I have a standalone whole house generator. I can imagine being without power weeks, or even months, in a worst case scenario. I shudder to consider all the system I can't control or may have no awareness of...

...

So yeah. This needs to be approached with some logic, but it's a huge and complex issue. And like so many other societal issues, our leaders are NOT dealing with it appropriately.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I agree, time that we updated this thread. I was just marvelling at the Internet-connected, dual-camera refrigerators at the Fry's Electronics chain store.

These refigerators are bleeding edge, Cost range from $5800 to $11,000, and have medium-sized HDTV panels in one door:

I don't get it. Bottom line, it still looks like a refrigerator to me. In 2011 when my parents' nearly 40 year old Westinghouse broke, I bought a new, energy efficient, reliable refrigerator from GE for: $450 (grand total).

I am single, so I didn't need 25 or even 20 cubic feet. 18 feet in an apartment-sized standard fridge was fine for me.

I looked around and found a sale, to get a good deal. I took the color I didn't want to save $250 (that color was on sale).

I deliberately chose NOT to get ice makers, the internet, built in pizza ovens, faster than light spaceships, and any other nonsense sold as expensive options. I just wanted a cheap, convenient, reliable, new refrigerator from a known brand with a 1-800 service number, that will hopefully sit in my house for 2 to 4 decades and keep some food cold. $6,000 to $11,000 for a fridge? And then people complain about "not having enough money".

[Newfie]

The problem isn't computers, the problem is we have too many people for the available, and decreasing, work load. We are about 90% superfluous.

[KaiserJeep]

Newfie makes a point, most humans are doomed for the dustbin of obsolescence. They will either have menial service jobs, mostly in elder care, or they will "earn" one of the few true Middle Class jobs remaining with a college degree or several years apprenticeship. Those that fail to qualify for work will have a monthly dole check, the above-mentioned $250 refrigerator, and a $250 bicycle for personal transport, and HDTV/Internet.

That was always in the cards, the "industrial Revolution" is in the fourth wave after 500+ years, with true A.I. and digital robotic slaves pending in the fifth wave.

[Newfie]

KJ,
It is inevitable that those redundant peoples will mostly be relegated to the dustbin, quite literally. They are a threat to those who have and unnecessary. Sad but likely.

At the current moment, and in the West, they are tolerated because they perform the function of "consumer" to drive the economy. That will not last forever.

[jedrider]

The problem isn't computers, the problem is we have too many people for the available, and decreasing, work load. We are about 90% superfluous.

Not concerning for the COMPUTER that will inherit this mess. If you can communicate with a light-bulb from anywhere on earth, a computer will be much better at controlling this than any person or persons.