[dohboi]

Nice point, PS.

And sorry, KJ, I should have said "could be facing criminal charges"

At least those are the words of the Michigan Attorney General's Office.

"Michigan Attorney General’s Office has announced top officials, including Governor Rick Snyder, could face criminal charges, including manslaughter."

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/2/17/t ... isoning_of

Still doesn't sound exactly like a white knight to me.

Whether or when he got elected has no bearing on the issue. All sorts of villains do get elected on more than one occasion. But perhaps that fact escaped your attention. If so, you must have had either a brief or and oblivious life thus far!

[Lore]

Rick Snyder was just sworn in for his second and last term in 2015, is still in office, will be in office for years to come, and hasn't even been charged with anything anywhere, much less convicted. Since he is term limited by Michigan law, expect his second term to be even more controversial going forward, as he cleans up the nasty messes left all over the state by Democrats. Flint is just the warm-up for Detroit, after all.

It was Rick Snyder who poisoned the people of Flint. Not democrats not the previous city fathers and elected officials. The mess he has, is the blood on his hands.

The guy is a bum! He came in as a tyrant and pushed the state legislation to give him the authority to rule over municipalities by installing these appointed toadies. The emphasis was to sell off assets like a vulture capitalist would. He went totally Mitt Romney. I guess it was just too tough for the "Nerd" to begin a organized campaign of job recovery for places like Flint, Detroit and Benton Harbor. Instead he took pension money and gave it away in breaks to corporations within the state. The only thing that saved his ass was the bail out of the auto industry.

Those are the facts.

[dohboi]

These little folks seem to have a clearer understanding of the situation than many of the posters here



https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html

[Plantagenet]

For several years, Flint had been operating the water utility primarily as a financial entity, rather than a public health utility.

The situation there shows the consequences of "trying to run a utility like a business focused on the bottom line, instead of a public service for a public good," said Grant.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... e-country/

I'll take it from people on the ground there over someone living in Alaska (or are you now on one of your merry jet-setting adventures again?)

You are normally a pretty straight thinker, Dohboi. Please consider this idea: The Flint City Water Department was never privatized. This is just a fact. No doubt they were short of money because city tax receipts were down and many people didn't pay their water bills. But being an underfunded government agency isn't the same thing as being a private business.

Its terrible that Flint went bankrupt, Terrible that Snyder interceded in a misguided attempt to help Flint, and terrible that the state appointed manager decided to switch water sources to save money for Flint. But things really went wrong when the Flint River water leached the pipes and released lead. Obviously Snyder didn't want that to happen, nor did his manager, not did the Flint city water department.

All that is terrible. But the most terrible thing is that the polluted water continued to come from the Flint City Water Dept. for a year!

In a normally functioning city water department, the water is tested hourly or at least daily to be sure its safe. So where is the water safety testing in Flint? This step is where things really went off the rails. Clearly the Flint City Government and water department staff did a terrible job of testing the water they were providing to Flint. Either the city tested the water and found lead but ignored the danger or they didn't even test it. Either way the government officials there were completely incompetent.

Same deal at the EPA. We know they tested the Flint water and back in April determined it was unsafe to drink. But they didn't tell anyone. The EPA squelched their data showing the water in Flint contained dangerous amounts of lead for 10 months and let those kids get poisoned in Flint.

-------------

PS: Since you asked, I'm going to the Greek Islands in a couple of weeks. I'll start out in Rhodes for a few days and see what ferries are going where and then probably head off to another island and then another and try to work my way back to athens, all dependent on local ferry schedules. No fixed plans after Rhodes right now.



Cheers!

[Satori]

Adding insult to injury in Flint: Lead-poisoned residents paid highest water rates in nation

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/2/ ... -in-nation

"A report released by Food & Water Watch on Tuesday confirmed what many residents had long suspected: that their water bills, averaging $140 a month, were the highest in the country. The group found that a Flint resident paid $864.32 a year for water in January 2015, about $500 more than what the typical family in the rest of the country paid for water from other public utilities and more than twice the rate paid in the state generally."

wow
$140.00 a month,lead included

I pay a whopping $15.00 monthly

[dohboi]

I give up on trying to make you understand what it means to treat a public utility as if it were a private for-profit entity. Semantics, and all that.

I just hope you never have to suffer from the consequences of such perversions.

P, you may end up running across my daughter in your island hopping!. She's studying in Athens, but taking every opportunity she can to visit islands and other parts of Greece. It sounds like they've been having wonderful weather. Should be a great break from the cold for you.

I honestly do wish that flying wasn't such a climate f'er. I'd love to go visit her.

[KaiserJeep]

Everybody is assuming wrongdoing where there in fact may be none. Not all of the pipes in Flint are made of lead, not even most of them. Thus even after the lead was detected, it was in a small number of a great many water samples. That bureaucrats - whether elected or appointed - cannot make big decisions promptly and correctly is not even surprising, it is expected behavior.

[dohboi]

Breaking:

Thousands of Flint residents could join 'billion-dollar' water crisis lawsuits

Lawyers working on three class action suits believe they have a legal strategy to bypass ‘sovereign immunity’ that protects Michigan state officials from blame

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016 ... ?CMP=fb_us

So the courts may indeed find that there is some wrongdoing here. And the wrong-doers may have to pay.

[dohboi]

[dohboi]

[KaiserJeep]

-snip-
So the courts may indeed find that there is some wrongdoing here. And the wrong-doers may have to pay.

Well, at least you said "may" that time. Maybe we can get you past extreme partisanship eventually.

Meanwhile let me remind you that the UAW getting into bed with Democrat politicians is what broke the automobile industry, and destroyed the urban tax base in not only Flint, but the entire MidWest.

[dohboi]

No partisanship on my part. I love the supreme court appointment of Earl Warren by Republican President Eisenhower!

Let's not go too far into your deranged versions of history here, though, shall we?

[PrestonSturges]

.... and here comes the usual off-topic bs. This is why America can't have nice things.

[Lore]

Everybody is assuming wrongdoing where there in fact may be none. Not all of the pipes in Flint are made of lead, not even most of them. Thus even after the lead was detected, it was in a small number of a great many water samples. That bureaucrats - whether elected or appointed - cannot make big decisions promptly and correctly is not even surprising, it is expected behavior.

There were indications as far back as 2014 that this water was poison. City officials issued boil-water advisories after coliform bacteria were detected in August and September of that year.

In February of 2015 in a memo for the governor, officials played down problems and said that the water is not an imminent “threat to public health.” Remember the top official at this point was the appointed City Manager.

“It’s clear the nature of the threat was communicated poorly. It’s also clear that folks in Flint are concerned about other aspects of their water — taste, smell and color being among the top complaints.”

In a memo to a state aide at the end of February 2015 an E.P.A. expert says that the state was testing the water in a way that could profoundly understate the lead levels.

“Given the very high lead levels found at one home and the preflushing happening in Flint, I’m worried that the whole town may have much higher lead levels than the compliance results indicated.”

So it was pretty clear that this information should have raised a red flag by that time at the state level.

More tests and results were issued bringing up concerns until at the end of September 2015 ...

A group of doctors led by Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha of Hurley Medical Center in Flint urged the city to stop using the Flint River for water after finding high levels of lead in the blood of children. State regulators insist the water is safe.

“D.E.Q. and D.C.H. feel that some in Flint are taking the very sensitive issue of children’s exposure to lead and trying to turn it into a political football claiming the departments are underestimating the impacts on the populations and particularly trying to shift responsibility to the state.”

So there you have it.

[KaiserJeep]

Honestly, do you really believe that the UAW demands for higher wages, lifetime healthcare, and very high retirement incomes had nothing to do with making American automobiles uncompetitive? Because that did happen, and now American cars have to compete with vehicles built with cheaper labor and cheaper raw materials, and in countries without environmental protections. Today American cars are being built with a lot of robots and very few people, using imported steel and plastics, and really are barely competing with the imports.

Do you also believe that the UAW got no quid pro quo for being the Democratic political machine in the entire area?

If so, Scarecrow, you need to get a brain. The Democrats destroyed the tax revenues, which in turn caused every financial issue Flint has, and lots of other cities.

[Plantagenet]

I just hope you never have to suffer from the consequences of such perversions.

Well, since you asked.

There is no water system where I live here in Alaska. People haul their own water from springs that flow all winter even at -50°, or from wells that the state has drilled. Some people have pick-ups with big water tanks in the back that they fill with water and take back to their cabins, and some folks fill up smaller blue water jugs (see pic below)



About 10 years ago some joker dumped part of a moose carcass into one of the springs. Well, the water started tasting bad. After a month it got real bad. Eventually the state came and tested the spring water, and sure enough it was bad----eventually they found what was left of the moose carcass about 10 feet down in the spring.

[PS Luckily I get my water from a well---not a spring]

P, you may end up running across my daughter in your island hopping!. She's studying in Athens, but taking every opportunity she can to visit islands and other parts of Greece. It sounds like they've been having wonderful weather. Should be a great break from the cold for you.

I honestly do wish that flying wasn't such a climate f'er. I'd love to go visit her.

You really must go to Greece see your daughter. The climate gods will forgive you just this once.
Let me know your travel plans---we can meet at this funky little Taverna I know built right on the beach….its the one with the octopus hanging from clothespins on a line set out in the sun drying. The owner will pop an octopus right on the grill for you and he serves it with a nice cold beer. See you there!


Cheers!

[Lore]

Honestly, do you really believe that the UAW demands for higher wages, lifetime healthcare, and very high retirement incomes had nothing to do with making American automobiles uncompetitive? Because that did happen, and now American cars have to compete with vehicles built with cheaper labor and cheaper raw materials, and in countries without environmental protections. Today American cars are being built with a lot of robots and very few people, using imported steel and plastics, and really are barely competing with the imports.

Do you also believe that the UAW got no quid pro quo for being the Democratic political machine in the entire area?

If so, Scarecrow, you need to get a brain. The Democrats destroyed the tax revenues, which in turn caused every financial issue Flint has, and lots of other cities.

What does that rant have to to do with poisoning the people of Flint? None of which, even if it were true, was responsible for carelessly opting to switch water sources to save a buck.

I would also point out that the fall of the unions also coincides with the destruction of the middle class. Think about that for awhile.

[PrestonSturges]

Honestly, do you really believe that the UAW demands for higher wages, lifetime healthcare, and very high retirement incomes had nothing to do with making American automobiles uncompetitive?

Desperate off-topic bullshit

[dohboi]

PS, that's what KJ does when he finds himself loosing an argument.

Plant, that moose business sounds pretty awful. Nice that you has a state gov that was functioning well enough to come out and test the water for you!

Meanwhile, kinda back on topic:

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/2/17/w ... ernor_know

What Did GM & the Governor Know?

GM Stopped Using Flint Water Over a Year Before Emergency Declared

In October 2014, General Motors recognized the Flint water was corroding its engines. They got permission from the city’s unelected emergency manager—who was appointed by Republican Governor Rick Snyder—to disconnect from Flint’s water and go back to Detroit water. It would be another year before the people of Flint were finally allowed to disconnect from the corrosive Flint River as their water supply and hook up again to the Detroit water system

It all sounds too familiar. Repugs get in and totally smash up basic government functions (except as they serve the wealthy and corporations), then when things go predictably south, they turn around and say, "Look, government doesn't work!"

It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic and if so many people weren't so badly damaged in the process. I saw the same claims about FEMA under Bush. What utter pathological @$$wipes.

[Outcast_Searcher]

That river water was even refused by GM since it corroded engine parts.

Wow, if that's the case, talk about a HUGE red flag. If GM considered the water from the river too corrosive for metal parts, that just MIGHT be a hint that it would be an issue for pipes and human health.

And the entire government apparatus at all levels could do nothing about it while many children were poisoned, etc.

So we can all pick our political clown of choice based on our political preferences, but it sure looks like EPIC FAIL for the whole system. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for big government, the "safety" of government oversight, etc.