[dohboi]

"Not exactly a ringing endorsement for big government, the "safety" of government oversight, etc."

BS

See my comment above.

Note that this Republican 'anti-big-government' government did a fine job of protecting GM; it just couldn't be bothered to do anything for the children and citizens of Flint. In spite of repeated pleas, including from this guy:

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/2/17/m ... _whose_bid

Meet the Flint Official Whose Bid to Restore Safe Drinking Water Was Blocked by an Unelected Manage

[Lore]

That river water was even refused by GM since it corroded engine parts.

Wow, if that's the case, talk about a HUGE red flag. If GM considered the water from the river too corrosive for metal parts, that just MIGHT be a hint that it would be an issue for pipes and human health.

And the entire government apparatus at all levels could do nothing about it while many children were poisoned, etc.

So we can all pick our political clown of choice based on our political preferences, but it sure looks like EPIC FAIL for the whole system. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for big government, the "safety" of government oversight, etc.

Well as dohboi pointed out, it seems in this case government was ready to give GM a pass, but not the people of Flint. There was only one level at the time this fiasco happened. The state appointed crony reporting to his boss. Looks like they did a pretty good job of suppressing anyone else from bringing this up for quite sometime.

Goes to illustrate that this whole idea of running government like a business and that it's a superior approach is a big fallacy.

[dohboi]

+1

[Plantagenet]

Politifact just did a very nice review of the whole timeline of the Flint Water crisis.

Politifact: whos-blame-flint-water-crisis

They name names and assign blame---theres more than enough blame to go around for everyone.

Politifact brought up something important I hadn't seen before----actually there was no decision by the state appointed manager to switch from Detroit Water to Flint River Water. The manager actually made a decision to switch from Detroit Water to Lake Water. That required construction of a new pipeline.

But as soon as Flint announced this decision, Detroit Water cut off Flint from using the clean Detroit water they'd relied on for decades

Oh, Detroit gave Flint a few months , but then Detroit cut Flint off. God knows why Detroit didn't work with Flint and keep supplying water until the new pipeline was done, but they didn't. Detroit turned Flint's clean water off. Once Detroit cut Flint off, then Flint needed a new water supply right away to tide them over until they could get the lake water. The only available water was the Flint River.

So actually the blame for switching from Detroit Water to Flint River water belongs to DETROIT---It was DETROIT that turned off the supply of clean water to Flint.

Cheers!

[dohboi]

As your own article states, investigations are still underway by both the FBI and the MI Attorney General's office. So I'm sure there's much more to learn.

Interesting that you start by saying that 'there's plenty of blame to go around' then end up putting all of the blame on one city. Do you read what you write, or do you just not mind constantly contradicting yourself??

And you seem to have missed the part in your own article where it says:

...the buck does stop with Snyder...

"There was a lot of wishful thinking by which the tax cutters dreamed that they could keep on cutting taxes without having any real consequences," said Charles L. Ballard, an economist at Michigan State University. "But tax cuts of this magnitude, some of which were passed during the first year of Gov. Snyder’s administration, were bound to have real consequences.

Snyder also appointed the emergency managers who signed off on the switch away from Detroit’s water system and the decision to use Flint River water as an interim solution.

Snyder does bear a significant share of the responsibility. His fiscal approach helped set the stage for the water switch that led to the poisoning, and it was his hand-picked emergency managers who implemented the changes. Snyder also oversaw the state environmental and health departments that have come in for sharp criticism for their failures to act quickly and forcefully when the first indications of a problem cropped up.

Soooo, you read neither what you yourself write, nor what the articles you link to actually say...Hmmmm...

Yes, others were involved, there is rarely only one culprit in any situation, but the article hardly puts all the blame on Detroit officials.

[Plantagenet]

......

"There was a lot of wishful thinking by which the tax cutters dreamed that they could keep on cutting taxes without having any real consequences," said Charles L. Ballard, an economist at Michigan State University. "But tax cuts of this magnitude, some of which were passed during the first year of Gov. Snyder’s administration, were bound to have real consequences.

I don't quite see what tax cuts by the state of Michigan have to do with Flint going bankrupt? The city of Flint has its own taxes and its own budget problems and it went bankrupt all its own ---- cuts to state taxes played no role in Flint's budget problems.

[Cog]

Democrats made this happen.

[Plantagenet]

Interesting that you start by saying that 'there's plenty of blame to go around' then end up putting all of the blame on one city. Do you read what you write, or do you just not mind constantly contradicting yourself??

????????

I didn't say anything like that.

I said I saw something new in the POLITIFACT analysis of what went wrong in Flint. The new thing that I saw was the role Detroit played in the Flint disaster. Detroit CUT OFF FLINT'S ACCESS TO CLEAN WATER, forcing Flint to quickly find a new water source. Thats the reason Flint was forced to use the Flint River.

I'm not putting all the blame on Detroit, as you wrongly inferred. But Detroit's decision to cut off Flint's access to clean water is clearly an important part of the the story that isn't getting the attention it deserves.

Cheers!

[dohboi]

Actually, you said exactly that. You know, your earlier post is just up the thread a ways.

But I'll leave it for others to look for themselves to see whether or not you did in fact start a post with "theres [sic] more than enough blame to go around for everyone"

and end with "So actually the blame for switching from Detroit Water to Flint River water belongs to DETROIT"

(In all caps, no less!)

So now you can't even re-read your own post accurately. Maybe a visit back to a primary school room rather than to Rhodes would be a better use of your time!!??

[Plantagenet]

Maybe a visit back to a primary school room ... would be a better use of your time!!??

Are you trying to be insulting? Sorry, I'm not interesting in swapping insults.

Have a nice day.

Cheers!

[dohboi]

Ah, the thin skin of the ones who always claim that the oppressed are always crying about victimization.

All far too typical.

Cheers and good night to you, too.

Do have a great vacation.

But do think about a bit of remedial reading instruction in the mix.

Goes well with bitters, I'm told!

[drwater]

KaiserJeep said

Everybody is assuming wrongdoing where there in fact may be none.

I agree with a lot of what Kaiser has said in this thread. However, being in the water business myself, I can tell you that what has happened is criminal and I would be shocked if criminal charges for several individuals are not forthcoming. The greatest blame would lie with whoever decided to NOT add the corrosion inhibiting chemicals (phosphates) after switching to the Flint River. The second greatest blame would be with whoever decided to flush the lines before taking water quality samples in the houses. If you know you have lead pipes in the laterals to some houses, that action is likely a sign of gross negligence or worse.

I would be extremely surprised for the Governor to have any idea about these technical details. His appointed manager probably didn't either. However, there should be some water system managers involved in Flint that should have known better.

The EPA doesn't usually get involved in water system operation details. It is usually a state drinking water or health department that has oversight. However, the EPA does have higher level programs to deal with issues that affect a wide range of water or wastewater systems. It is surprising the EPA didn't get more alarmed about this faster once they did get involved.

[Plantagenet]

It is surprising the EPA didn't get more alarmed about this faster once they did get involved.

Yup.

The EPA apparently knew the water was poisoned back in April, but never told the people of Flint. The EPA regional director for Flint the area resigned in January 2016.

[KaiserJeep]

Thank you, drwater.

So we have established that the Federal EPA should have done something to warn the public, and the regional EPA manager has resigned rather than to face the wrath of the EPA Director appointed by Barack Obama's Democratic administration.

We have established that the root cause of the issue was the water officials who work for the Democratic Mayor of Detroit denying the city of Flint any more water. We have further established that the water management folks in Flint should have taken steps to protect the pipes from the more acidic river water, and did not. Furthermore, we have established that they also did nothing to warn the people of Flint, and should have - and that there was a newly elected Democratic administration in Flint when this happened. Now if you want to know the reason that the river is acidic, that would be because the MidWest burns a lot of coal and suffers from acid rain, and this was discovered in the 1960s when we had a Democratic Mayor and Governor in Michigan and a Republican (Nixon) in the White House.

We have established also that there simply is NO POLITICAL ELEMENT WHATSOEVER to cause this health problem, only the incompetence of the water utility types that work for the Flint public water utility, which was never "privatized". If anybody thinks there is anything to learn from this, other than you should hire competent people to oversee matters of public health, especially including a clean and safe water supply, you are simply wrong. As a general rule, never look for a conspiracy where simple human incompetence provides an adequate explanation of what has happened.

If there is some deep dark defect in your soul that insists that the "other party" did something wrong, always, then what is broken is your own heart, or your own head, or your own soul. Very likely, you have lost your belief in the basic goodness of people of all political persuasions, and are now a sad, broken curmudgeon, bitterly complaining on the Web, and fighting with those that are probably very like yourself, but belong to the other party.

The health effects of lead were established almost a century ago, and we even purged the lead from the solder used to join lengths of copper piping. Having lead pipes this many decades past the discovery of the hazards they pose is - more than any other cause - the root of this problem. (It may also have been what destroyed the Roman empire, if you care to dig into History.)

One last comment: Our system of government is working, the 4th estate is finally working, and the light of publicity is finally shining on this problem, and it is being fixed. Already the incompetent people are resigning and there is a long investigation that needs to happen, and anybody digging up a single fact and loudly blaming one political party or another TODAY, is simply a sad shell of a human being, a bitter and useless person, who needs to walk away from politics and find another hobby. You could start by not logging onto the Internet for a month, and see how you feel. From time to time I get in my Jeep, and go far from the works of man, and give battle to wily native trout in mountain streams rather than imagined foes - who are probably people I would enjoy knowing and even drinking with - did not the Internet come between us.

This will end when the last of the lead pipes has been dug up and replaced. Until then, and for all time really, anybody hired in Flint to work at the water utility had best know what they are doing.

[dohboi]

"We have established"

Of course, no such things have be 'established' except in your folks' addled brains and gross and intentional misreading of the facts set before you.

But don't let me get in the way of your political fantasy!

[KaiserJeep]

I'm not having a political fantasy, at least not anymore. I am starting to make plans to go fishing instead, as soon as the danger of avalanches and mudslides abates somewhat in the mountains.

Allow me to suggest, ever so gently, that you do something as well to feed your soul, re-center your thoughts, and deal with your own mental health in whatever fashion your life experience has taught you works for you. Until then, simply try not to blame anybody else for the "problems" you perceive around you, because it is a symptom of mental illness, one shared by so many that spend too much time in the virtual world, and ignore the real world.

[dohboi]

Riiight. The guy who is planning on colonizing and terraforming distant planets is giving me advice on maintaining mental stability!! You can't make this stuff up. Thanks for the laughs, folks. Gotta go for now.

[Lore]

It is surprising the EPA didn't get more alarmed about this faster once they did get involved.

Yup.

The EPA apparently knew the water was poisoned back in April, but never told the people of Flint. The EPA regional director for Flint the area resigned in January 2016.

If you read the timeline you'd realize the state put pressure on everyone to soft peddle the crisis. Rick and his sycophants knew of the issue back at least by February 2015.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016 ... .html?_r=0

[clif]

Interesting comment;

January 2015

Detroit’s water system offers to reconnect to Flint, waiving a $4 million connection fee. Three weeks later, Flint’s state-appointed emergency manager, Jerry Ambrose, declines the offer.

Hmmmmm, I wonder who he spoke to in those three weeks?

Especially since Gov. Snyder appointed him to over ride the will of the voters of Flint Michigan ...........

[vox_mundi]

Flint water crisis: 5 officials face manslaughter charges

FLINT – Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette today announced that he has charged Michigan Department of Health and Human Services Director Nick Lyon, former Flint Emergency Manager Darnell Earley, former City of Flint Water Department Manager Howard Croft, as well as Michigan Department of Environmental Quality’s Drinking Water Chief Liane Shekter-Smith and Water Supervisor Stephen Busch with involuntary manslaughter related to their alleged failure to act in the Flint Water Crisis.

Lyon, was appointed by Snyder to lead DHHS in April 2015. Lyon becomes the highest-ranking state employee to face criminal charges for his role in the water crisis, moving an investigation by state Attorney General Bill Schuette closer than ever to Gov. Rick Snyder.

Lyon said in an email, regarding a tripling of blood lead levels in children after the city switched to river water., ...

"... the lead blood levels seen are not out of the ordinary and are attributable to seasonal fluctuations."

Involuntary manslaughter is punishable by up to 15 years in prison, and/or a $7,500 fine.

In addition to the involuntary manslaughter charges, Schuette also charged Lyon with Misconduct in Office, a felony, subject to 5 years in prison and/or a $10,000 fine.

MDHHS Chief Medical Executive Eden Wells has also been charged with Lying to a Peace Officer and Obstruction of Justice related to an alleged attempt to stop an investigation into the health crisis in Flint and later misleading investigators as to her actions.

Wells was named by Gov. Snyder to be Flint's drinking water public health adviser after the governor acknowledged rising levels of lead and the potential connection between the use of the river and Legionnaires'.