[ennui2]

Hey Cog, time to give it up, man. You're on the wrong side of history.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... -congress/

[dolanbaker]

This one's banned in a lot of places, but it still makes a regular appearance.

[Cog]

Applauding censorship? My shocked face.

[vtsnowedin]

The more you suppress the display of the Confederate flag the more you increase the strength of the statement made when it is displayed.
Instead of remembering history or young boys trying to express their daring and manhood it may become something brought out only when someone is ready to fight to the death over whatever the problem is.

[Lore]

Flags are merely symbols. They are not worth fighting over or dying for. People and ideals, well that's a different matter.

“A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.”
― Oscar Wilde

[vtsnowedin]

Flags are merely symbols. They are not worth fighting over or dying for. People and ideals, well that's a different matter.

“A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.”
― Oscar Wilde

Symbols of what? Perhaps an ideal worth dying for?
Before the advent of the machine gun many a soldier risked death by carrying the colors forward otherwise unarmed. Stars and stripes, stars and bars , lone star of Texas, they are just symbols as you say but what they stand for has been worth dying for and some will be again.

[Lore]

Flags are merely symbols. They are not worth fighting over or dying for. People and ideals, well that's a different matter.

“A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.”
― Oscar Wilde

Symbols of what? Perhaps an ideal worth dying for?
Before the advent of the machine gun many a soldier risked death by carrying the colors forward otherwise unarmed. Stars and stripes, stars and bars , lone star of Texas, they are just symbols as you say but what they stand for has been worth dying for and some will be again.

In that vein, one more quote from George Patton.

“No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country."

Dying for a symbol is just plain stupid. Which is why fanatics never win.

[vtsnowedin]

Flags are merely symbols. They are not worth fighting over or dying for. People and ideals, well that's a different matter.

“A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.”
― Oscar Wilde

Symbols of what? Perhaps an ideal worth dying for?
Before the advent of the machine gun many a soldier risked death by carrying the colors forward otherwise unarmed. Stars and stripes, stars and bars , lone star of Texas, they are just symbols as you say but what they stand for has been worth dying for and some will be again.

In that vein, one more quote from George Patton.

“No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country."

Dying for a symbol is just plain stupid. Which is why fanatics never win.

The terminology is the problem. If you substitute "worth risking death" for "worth dying for" you will understand my point better. Suicide for a cause or symbol is stupid as Patton pointed out but you often have to take considerable risk to achieve the killing of the other dumb bastard.

[Sixstrings]

In other news, a New Jersey town tried to ban a man from flying the Trump flag:

New Jersey Homeowner May Face Jail for Flying Trump Campaign Flag
https://youtu.be/TCk6pbE6Sj8

Judge dismisses fine against New Jersey homeowner who flew Trump flags

Hornick was ticketed after a resident, who is a former Democratic councilman, called police and questioned why his complaints about the flags to the municipal code enforcement officer had not resulted in a citation, NJ.com reported, citing a police report. ...

Hornick’s lawyer argued that the ordinance was vague on whether it applied to flags.

Judge Louis Garippo Jr. agreed, calling the law “somewhat vague.” He said he was dismissing the case “in the interest of justice.

The state's chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union joined the dispute, saying people have the right to express their political beliefs every day.

Hornick had faced a minimum fine of $100. The maximum penalty is a fine of $2,000, 90 days in jail or both.

"Let the flags fly. Let 'em fly," Hornick said afterward, according to NJ.com. "You take my freedom away, I'd rather sit in jail, bottom line."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/05/19/judge-dismisses-fine-against-new-jersey-homeowner-who-flew-trump-flags.html

[ROCKMAN]

Lore - I'm with you. But it goes beyond that IMHO. Lots of jarhead "fanatics" have died for the Stars and Stripes over the years. And some of that was motivated by some freedoms we enjoy...such as free speech. I, for one, get a satisfying feeling when I see a protestor in the US burn an American flag. I just remember all the jarheads that died so that protestor could express his feelings in that manner and appreciate their sacrifice that allows his actions. And I'm equally upset by anyone that might criticize that protestor let alone attack him.

[Sixstrings]

Student suspended from school, for having the confederate flag on his pickup truck:

Warren student suspended over Confederate flag

“They said I was harming other kid’s education and everything because it’s a distraction,” Delicato said.

Delicato said the Confederate flag is not racist, but a symbol of his family’s history.

“It’s for our southern heritage,” Delicato said. “Not for race. Nothing like that.”

Many others disagree. The superintendent said numerous students complained about the flag and staged a protest. At one point, someone even cut down Delicato’s confederate flag.

Ryan Delicato’s father Gary Delicato disagrees with his son’s suspension.

“A child who takes one thing the wrong way and now it’s blown up into this,” Gary Delicato said. “I understand that people have some issues with the flag, I understand that, but we can’t all stop doing things just because somebody doesn’t like something.”
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/warren-student-suspended-over-confederate-flag

The larger principle here is the first amendment being curtailed, because of the "safe space" thing and some people view others' first amendment expression as a "distraction." It's same thing with the Trump flag in New Jersey, and a former Democratic councilman just didn't like having to look at it -- on his neighbor's property -- so he called the police about it.

The first amendment will always be "a distraction" to somebody -- whether it's ART, or comedy, or political speech or regional history or a candidate's flag, it's always gonna offend somebody and they will want to use government to take it down.

But freedom is best overall and it's the American Way.

Europeans have another kind of way, the European Way, and it's socialism and they have never had the full extent of freedom of speech rights that exist in the USA.

We're becoming too much like Europe lately, when it comes to free speech anyway.

Our founding fathers knew that freedom is what's best -- a free marketplace of expression and ideas, and that if you try to ban a flag then people just want to fly it more anyway, it's human nature.

I hold the ACLU type of view on this flag issue.

And the thing about the confederate flag is that it's an historical flag; it may be racism to a certain segment, but they don't define the entirety of it. Just as the American flag is not all bad, because of things some people criticize our country over.

The confederate flag has also changed to become like a "don't tread on me" flag -- and people have THAT right too, to fly it for that meaning.

Overall -- it's sad that this whole flag thing has been stirred up. Civil war history is not civil war history, if you take the rebel flags out, for goodness sake. It's actually a part of Americana. They shouldn't take it out of the national parks and cemeteries, they ought to leave it like it's been for thirty years and more now.

[Sixstrings]

Trump, Confederate Flags, and Truthfulness

While this speaks no ill about Trump, it says a great deal insofar as the social climate of our country is concerned. For untold millions, truth stands an entirely relative affair; whatever narrative they prefer reigns supreme, irrespective of objective reality. ...

Longtime opponents of this flag — who despise Southern culture on general principle — used the tragedy for politicking. They called for Confederate flags of all stripes, as well as Rebel monuments, to be cleared off public property. Major retailers were bullied into dropping merchandise that depicted the Confederate banner. ...

Eventually, the Orlando Sentinel set things straight. During an interactive online series about flags that flew over Florida, it was acknowledged that the red bars have nothing to do with Stonewall Jackson or Richmond.

Rather, they are the St. Patrick’s Saltire; a representation of the Anglo-Irish people — English folks who settled Eire, mainly after Oliver Cromwell defeated the dissident Catholic Confederation. The bars symbolize Ireland being united with Westminster, not to mention the Protestant perspective on St. Patrick’s life story. ...

Social justice warriors care nothing for an intellectual debate. Instead, they harbor deep resentment — if not hatred — for certain types of individuals and cultures. Propagandist narratives are concocted to further their views. As a result, the public is both misinformed and manipulated by manifestly dishonest brokers.

This phenomenon has shifted from Confederate imagery to Florida’s flag to Donald Trump. It finally reached, of all men, Bernie Sanders. After everything else was airborne, Hillary Clinton’s cronies unhinged the kitchen sink and chucked it at his campaign.
http://www.caledonianrecord.com/opinion/columns/joseph-cotto-trump-confederate-flags-and-truthfulness/article_bddab38d-5876-51f4-8eee-9761647cf121.html

That's a good article about narratives versus "objective reality."

People that want to ban the confederate flag aren't recognizing the objective reality that it's a cultural and regional flag, that yes there really are millions of people that are not bigots and that flag is just grits and collard greens and huntin' and muddin' and NASCAR.. and they got it on their RV when they go to NASCAR, or maybe fly it outside their house.

Or they are history buffs -- it's just part of the regional landscape, it's part of the history. This flag banning thing got so bad that at first, Apple *banned civil war strategy games*.

The thing never ends. The above article is right -- what started with the rebel flag moved to Trump, and then finally even Bernie Sanders.

When those different from you lose their first amendment rights, then eventually you do too.

[Sixstrings]

I hadn't been following this news for a long time.

This was back in January, a marine recruit was denied enlistment because he has a confederate flag tattoo:

Confederate Flag Tattoo Disqualifies Marine Enlistee

Covered in camouflage, 18-year-old Anthony Bauswell said he is like most country boys. He likes to hunt, fish and be outdoors. He shows his pride of his upbringing in his tattoos.

"I got a browning buck right there," said Anthony Bauswell.

To show pride in his country, Bauswell said he walked into the Conway Marine recruiting center Monday to enlist.

The process stopped after he revealed another tattoo.

"There's the tattoo it clearly states southern pride," said Bauswell.

"I felt pretty low. My own government wasn't going to let me serve my country because of the ink on my skin,' said Bauswell.

The Marine Corps also have a tattoo poster on some websites with the slogan "Think before you ink."
http://www.arkansasmatters.com/news/local-news/confederate-flag-tattoo-disqualifies-marine-enlistee

Is the confederate flag banned in the US military now? Goodness, times are changing fast.

This is news from three days ago.. a student may be denied his graduation diploma because he had a confederate flag on his car:

Confederate flag stand threatens Crosby student’s graduation

School officials in the Crosby-Ironton school district reportedly have threatened to withhold the diploma of a senior because he showed up at school yesterday with a Confederate flag attached to his car.

His mother says he’s a supporter of the military and the right to hunt and bear arms.

“He was just trying to respect those people that fought for everything where we are today,” Dorene Nelson, Cody Nelson’s mother, said. “He felt like he was outnumbered because he was trying to be supportive of how far we’ve come in our country.”

She says he was planning to be back at school today with the flag still attached.

“Then he gets this thrown at him, with controversy and racism,” Dorene Nelson tells Fargo Forum. “When half his family is black. He took it pretty hard today.”
http://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/2016/05/confederate-flag-stand-threatens-crosby-students-graduation/

I wonder if any of this flag stuff is headed to the courts, and on to the supreme court. That case right there is a prime one for the courts. I'm not sure what the case law is.. there's been rulings before about balancing students' first amendment rights, things like tshirts and political / cultural things.

A public school can't really ban things like a religious woman wearing a head covering, and you can't ban someone from speaking Spanish or another language, or ban someone with a flag on their car, or a Republican Party tshirt, or gay rights tshirt, or pro life or pro choice tshirt etc., whatever it is, it's all the same first amendment principle.

[Sixstrings]

This one's banned in a lot of places, but it still makes a regular appearance.

The confederate flag isn't the same thing as that. Just because someone in Europe has never been to the South, and not only the South but the ENTIRE South (it's different in the various states; Florida is not bigoted, for example, but you can't take their flag away because maybe x number of people in North Carolina are bigoted); people in Europe assuming things when they have not traveled and lived everywhere, or just because someone lives in Massachusetts or Minnesota or California, doesn't mean that THEIR perception is the 100% correct one.

In America, we have the Constitution and first amendment. We are not Europe. We have the freedom principle and that you constitutionally cannot ban things outright.

Our founding fathers believed that this was the best system and way overall, that if you oppress groups then it just causes more problems -- freedom is the best way.

To some people in the South, taking the confederate flag away and banning it everywhere feels like banning their *culture*, it would be like grabbing the Scots' flag away from them.

And the South is a lot Scots-Irish too, and the flag design itself is Scots-Irish.

But nobody even knows that history, and the bad old days of racism are LONG OVER -- the reality is that these people at nascar and whatnot and in rural areas, to them that flag really is "the Dukes of Hazard" and it's grits and collard greens and country music and huntin' and muddin' and it's their culture.

"If defeated everywehre else, I will make my stand for liberty, among the Scots-Irish of my native Virginia." -- George Washington



They left for the New World at the beginning of the 18th century , they were soon to become the pioneers who would later become American Presidents, around 14 at the last count were of Ulster Scot ancestry
https://youtu.be/s22l3cV18yw

I don't mean to get overly dramatic, but country folks and regional cultures ought to have their flag -- if it's not bigotry to them, then who is someone else to say it is?

And guys like Cog, I know where he's coming from -- confederate flag is like a 2nd amendment rights flag, it's like a conservatives' flag too, and like how they have the the "don't tread on me" flag. Folk like their flags, just leave 'em alone, it's a free country.

[ennui2]

The federal government, that's who.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... eries.html

[Sixstrings]

The federal government, that's who.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... eries.html

Well if I were in the House, I'd vote against that. Especially a cemetery.

I just think things should be how they were back when I was growing up -- and I'm young enough to where that was POST RACISM, but old enough to remember that there was a time where civil war history was presented the way Ken Burns did. It's AMERICAN history and that's my biggest complaint about this flag banning stuff, it's really coming after American history.

When I was growin' up, the gettysburg gift shop had union coffee cups AND confederate ones. And they still had them, up until lately.

I just don't like it ennui. It's the far left that wants to make the confederate flag 100% "a racist symbol" -- I like how things used to be. Like with Ken Burns documentaries.

How can you demand that a symbol must mean what you want it to mean? Or that only the worst parts of its history, is its meaning?

How can you say that only YOU are right, and that all those people at nascar MUST be bigots? That the flag CANNOT mean grits, and collard greens, huntin' and fishin' and racin', to them?

The far left doesn't even like the AMERICAN flag, Ennui.

P.S. But you're right as far as it if it passes the Senate too, then that's how it is. But the Constitution protects minorities, from majorities that may all just decide that "country music sucks" and "who cares about fishin' and muddin' and grits," and that American history buffs don't matter either.

Some of this flag stuff may wind up in the supreme court, I think it's going too far (like the public school student maybe denied his graduation diploma).

[ennui2]

Yeah, let's celebrate free speech!

I feel nostalgic. Where's the nearest Sambos?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... loved.html

Maybe get some harmless old-timey goodies at the gift shop while we're at it.

[Sixstrings]

Well see there you go, you're digging back into the 1950s-1960s to create a narrative for today while ignoring the last darn forty years when there was not racism in any gift shops and national parks.

You cannot have a civil war tourist gift shop without confederate flags.

This is what the gift shops look like:






After civil war history is gone, what's next?

Will General Custer have to be removed, from any national parks?

The thing just never ends. I seem to recall even Woodrow Wilson's name was getting taken off things.

[Sixstrings]

Some other news, Mississippi's flag will not be displayed with the other states after the House renovation is complete:

Mississippi flag won't hang in US Capitol tunnel

WASHINGTON — State flags, including the controversial Mississippi flag featuring the Confederate battle emblem, will no longer hang in the tunnel at the U.S. Capitol.

Rep. Candice Miller, R-Mich., said Thursday the state flags, which wereremoved during renovations, will be replaced this fall with prints of each state’s commemorative coin.

“Given the controversy surrounding Confederate imagery, I decided to install a new display,’’ Miller, chairwoman of the House Administration Committee, said in a statement. “I am well aware of how many Americans negatively view the Confederate flag, and, personally, I am very sympathetic to these views. However, I also believe that it is not the business of the federal government to dictate what flag each state flies.’’ ...

Supporters of leaving the flag alone say it’s part of the South’s heritage. Supporters in Mississippi have held rallies. Gov. Phil Bryant, acting at the request of Sons of Confederate Veterans, recently proclaimed April as Confederate Heritage Month.
http://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2016/04/21/confederate-flag-no-longer-hang-house-tunnel-dc/83335860/

If I lived in mississippi, I'd actually vote to change the flag.

But you know guys, part of what's going on is that it's really not fair that so many people that go to those "gettysburg gift shops" (it's a big tourism industry, it's our American history), and then all the collectors and history buffs, just get painted with the same brush and suddenly out of nowhere the confederate flag has to be banned from everything. And dukes of hazzard taken off tv.

It's not free speech, it's not really the American way.. I would say the same thing of muslims, that it would be WRONG to ever start banning head coverings. We just don't do these things in America, or we didn't used to anyway.

The Constitution is very important; the 1st amendment is important.

It's a bit crazy that some kid that just has a rebel flag tattoo, can't join he military based on that alone.

There are genuine first amendment concerns going on; people have the free speech right to have a flag on their car, or a bumper sticker, or to take a picture with a flag. They can't get expelled from school for just that alone, or denied a diploma.

I assume a lot of this stuff will wind up in the courts, eventually.

[Lore]

So, then you would recruit someone with the ISIS flag tattooed to their body as well? Just asking?