[Sixstrings]

So far in this latest American custom of domestic shooting , I haven't read any howl of protest about banning guns

Well I'm an American. As far as my little opinion goes, I went from neutral about gun control to in favor of it, after Orlando. That was finally enough. There's been too many of these, for far too many years, going back to the 90s and columbine.

America's got a problem about guns. It's a big huge cognitive dissonance problem half the country, the red state Republican states, just will not admit.

It's very sad. Irresponsible government has allowed these assault rifles to become the #1 best seller guns, and there's literally many millions of them out there. It's the #1 rifle.

And now it's happened again -- yet another mass shooting, with AR-15, and 30 round magazines. He probably had body armor, too. He probably bought everything legally, at the local gun shop.

People complain about the police getting militarized -- but it's an arms race, they've had to! This is what they're facing out there on the streets. Thanks to the NRA, the bad guys now have semi autos and high round magazines, and body armor. So it's an arms race, the police will have to further arm up. It's madness.

Do you guys really think it's a good idea that robots with claymore mines become standard law enforcement practice? Or do you think maybe they ought to just ban the assault rifles, and ban body armor sales (or heavily regulate it / require a license), and ban those high round magazines. Laws like what California passed.

GUNS are the central problem -- even this Louisiana incident, the guy's legal conceal carry permitted gun is really what got him shot! From what I saw on the news, someone said "he's got a gun" and then everything escalated and police shot him.

From what one can tell so far, it seems wrongly.. but look folks, JUST HAVING A GUN is a RISK and liability and I have said that a hundred times now on this forum. Did his conceal carry permit help that guy? NO it did not, it got him shot by police.

So often, people's LEGAL guns end in tragedy. This is a peak oil forum -- Mike Ruppert shot himself, don't you all remember that?

And there are so many vets suicides by gun, every day. And so many general public suicides by gun, every day. And so many ACCIDENTS from guns, and children in the home with guns in the home. And there's so many domestic violence incidents with guns, and domestic abusers that have guns. Gun violence and more gun violence, and more gun sales, every day in red state America.

Open carry laws -- it's insane. Texas's open carry just started in January. There were some people walking around downtown with their assault rifles on their back, and THOSE are the ones that got hauled in by police and interrogated, the police thinking they were part of this attack. Turns out it was just run of the mill usual gun nuts in Texas, just walking around with their guns.

Do you guys see, how nuts it is, in an advanced high population society? Things like open carry?

Do you see how legal gun ownership is actually a RISK overall, and a LIABILITY, in a hundred different ways?

The looser the gun laws get, the more military gear that is legal in the gun shops, the worse it is and the worse it gets and the more the police has to militarize and have an arms race and it just all gets worse overall.

But whatever, nobody will listen to reason and logic.

The South and out west, the red states, they'll continue their cognitive dissonance. "Look away, Dixieland, look away." Don't face the problems. It's an old story.

[Loki]

This is the inevitable result of the ideology of hate pushed by demagogues on the left. When you blame all of the problems of one group on another group, don't be surprised if violence results. This has happened time and again around the world. It's simple tribal politics.

The black-on-white crime rate is one of the primary results of the left's racist identity ideology, but it occasionally erupts in incidents like Dallas.

[Loki]

All three charts I posted have the source material identified on the face of the chart for anybody who cares to read. But for the mentally handicapped:

Data are irrelevant to ideologues. They cannot be persuaded by evidence.

[Plantagenet]

The South and out west, the red states, they'll continue their cognitive dissonance. "Look away, Dixieland, look away." Don't face the problems. It's an old story.

Like Chicago, murder city, is in the south and west.

Get real. The problem isn't any particular region of the country.

Loki is right---the problem in Dallas was the racist Black Power group that killed the policemen, and the black power mentality feeds on the anti-cop rhetoric coming from Black Lives Matter, and that feeds on the publicity and political support Black Lives Matter has been getting from the mainstream media and D politicians like Hilalry and even Bernie, and also from the Obama administration.

[Sixstrings]

The outraged liberals assume that the two police involved shootings, one in Louisiana and one in Minnesota, were not a justified use of force by the police. I would not be so quick to jump on that assumption. The investigation is ongoing and we are only getting one side of the story for now.

Yes I've seen the videos in both cases. They don't tell you the whole story.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from just what I saw on the news -- the guy in Louisiana was a legal concealed gun permit carrier.

And then at some point, WHILE he was resisting police, someone said "he has a gun!" And then it escalated fast.

It seems like probably the guy was confrontational with law enforcement (NOT a good idea, I don't care who you are, that is STUPID).. and then what really got him killed was his concealed weapons permit!

It's not about him being black, it's about him being a gun nut!

His concealed weapons permit is what caused the trouble, the fact he had a gun!

Listen guys, you know I'm telling the obvious common sense truth.. anyone that DOES choose to get a concealed weapon permit.. they had better be an extremely upstanding and responsible and mature citizen and have it together. Sadly, many people simply are not, and quite often they're the types that want guns to start with.. I know that's not you Cog, but it's a certain type.. the same type that gets mouthy with police and has problems with authority.

Responsible, legal gun owners should NOT be the type that resists or gets mouthy or makes sudden moves with police, and they need to calmly, and be the most respectful and sweet and nicest person in the world, and without making a move, tell the officer right away about their concealed weapon.

I'm just giving you guys the same advice I would give a friend, or family member -- I would advise to NOT have firearms (I'm talking about middle class suburbanite people, that don't live in Alaska with bears all around). And I'd advise to NOT conceal carry. Logically, rationally, it is so much LIABILITY and risk that it far outweighs the benefits.

[Sixstrings]

Like Chicago, murder city, is in the south and west.

I know that's what one would just THINK, but when I actually looked at crime stats for all the states.. Illinois is actually a good ways down the list. Who's at the top of the list? Well, Alaksa is #1 (a small population VERY rural state so I don't count that, it's objectively unique circumstances).

Of significant population states -- it's the tea party Republican red state South that is all up there in the top spots for gun crime and crime overall.

So, these are just facts. Florida is at the top of the list, of large population states. Texas isn't too far behind Florida. Louisiana is way up there close to the top with most crime. And Tennessee.

Get real. The problem isn't any particular region of the country.

Uhm, yeah it is Plant. The South and the out west love their guns. It's GEORGIA that is selling so many record numbers of assault rifles, in the gun shops. It's in the SOUTH and red states, where gun culture is so HUGE.

Moreso than the states that have gun control laws -- the northeast, and California, etc. Those states are also way down on the crime list, even New York which is one of the top 3 high population states.

It's the SOUTH and out west, the red states, that have all these tea party Republican governments that keep passing looser and looser gun laws, like open carry. It's THIS half of the country, that sends reps to Washington just to put their head in the sand and never do anything about anything.

[Lore]

All three charts I posted have the source material identified on the face of the chart for anybody who cares to read. But for the mentally handicapped:

Data are irrelevant to ideologues. They cannot be persuaded by evidence.

What's irrelevant is the data quoted. Only the mental would post it. None of it has anything to do with the tea in China. It's a non sequitur in the current discussion.

[Sixstrings]

About what its amounting too. The crazed Dallas shooter(s) were retaliating for the two recent police killings of black gun carriers. The fatal flaw was two fold for them, they were black and were legally carrying a gun. Proving once again, having a gun is more likely to get you killed. Especially if you're black.

What I bolded there is the main point, Lore, I think. I know the left wants to make a racial issue -- but the main issue is the guy was probably a mouthy with police type, AND a gun nut, with his concealed weapons permit. It's not really about race, the same thing happens to irresponsible WHITE gun owners that are confrontational with the police.

How crazy and upside down world it would be, if the NRA winds up taking on the constituencies of not only islamic terror watch list people that want in the gun shops, but Black Lives Matter too! Jesus, things are crazy in this country.

The kinds of Republicans we need are like old Herbert Walker Bush.

The far right loves their guns so much, that they actually get behind the islamic terror watch list's right to be in the gun shops! It's nuts.

And if Black Lives Matter becomes a terrorist organization -- then they shouldn't be in the gun shops either.

It's the arms race, and gun factories pumping out ever more guns, that's the problem.

If some of you guys want to live in a war torn civil war country, then go move to Somalia or Ukraine or whatever. But the rest of us would like to keep this place a 1st world, SANE, law and order advanced nation where folk and tourists and Canadian snowbirds can all walk the streets in peace and you don't have police sending robots with claymore mines to take out terrorists armed with semi autos and body armor, that they probably legally bought in the gun shop.. in a country with more gun shops than grocery stores.

It's the ARMS RACE, and gun culture that is the problem.

Wake up folks! Common sense!

[Sixstrings]

On drudgereport:

COPS TARGETED ACROSS AMERICA
Police say officers have been targeted in Missouri, Georgia and Tennessee

Police say officers have been targeted in Tennessee, Georgia and Missouri in the aftermath of two high-profile killings of black men by law enforcement.

The attack in Tennessee occurred hours before the killing of five police officers in Dallas on Thursday night during a protest. The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation says the attacker told authorities that he was frustrated by the recent killings by police of black men in Louisiana and Minnesota.

Police have not disclosed a motive in Friday’s attacks in Georgia and Missouri, which have been described as ambushes.

In a fourth attack early Friday, a motorist fired at a police car as the officer drove by. In all, four officers were wounded. The officer wounded outside St. Louis is in critical but stable condition. The wounded officers are expected to survive.
http://fox2now.com/2016/07/08/police-say-officers-have-been-targeted-in-missouri-georgia-and-tennessee/

It's inconvenient truths, that tea party Republican types are just blind to.

* There's too many guns in this country.
* The gun culture is out of control.
* The NRA *owns* half the federal government, when it comes to anything about guns. The NRA is a gun manufacturers' lobby, and their business is to sell as many guns as possible.
* There's too many guns out there, millions too many semi autos, too many 30 round magazines, too loose gun control laws.
* Because of all the guns and because of all the legal military grade weapons, police have to respond by militarizing more and they have to up their firepower, which then causes more problems and it's a cycle. The central root issue is the arms race.
* And also too little mental health care, no universal healthcare, and too much poverty too.. which are all thanks to tea party Republican Party, too. The same party that prevents any kind of gun control, also blocks everything else -- mental health funding, universal healthcare, minimum wage, everything.

[Plantagenet]

tea party Republican types ... The NRA... The NRA....tea party Republican Party.....everything.

So these shootings should be blamed on the Rs and and the NRA and the tea party and not on the radical black power groups that actually advocate killing police?

I don't follow your logic here.

Is there some reason you don't blame the people who killed the police for the shootings?

[Sixstrings]

So these shootings should be blamed on the Rs and and the NRA and the tea party and not on the radical black power groups that actually advocate killing police?

Republicans have already blocked legislation to keep islamic terror watch list out of the gun shops. If Black Lives Matter became a terrorist organization -- would the NRA defend their right to be in the gun shops, too?

I don't follow your logic here.

The overall logic is simple --

(a) The USA has more gun shops than grocery stores.
(b) NRA (a gun business lobby, same as how bank lobbies represent banking interests) owns half the Congress.
(c) The US already has more guns than people -- the addition / popularity of millions upon millions of semi automatics and 30 round clips has *compounded* the usual run-of-the-mill gun violence problem we've always had, in this country.

Is there some reason you don't blame the people who killed the police for the shootings?

If anyone is interested in actual solutions to problems then yes, you have to look deeper.

The gun factories flood the country -- and the world, for that matter -- with small arms.

Insult to injury, Republicans have LOOSENED gun laws and expanded what's for sale on the civilian market.

There's always been a never-ending arms race already, between law enforcement and what's out there on the streets. With these semi autos and 30 round magazines, it's just a lot worse now.

Dallas PD had to get a robot and put a claymore mine on it, that's how bad it was.

[vtsnowedin]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from just what I saw on the news -- the guy in Louisiana was a legal concealed gun permit carrier.


.

So who is Alton Sterling? For starters, liberals should know he possessed an illegal firearm. As a felon with a lengthy rap sheet, Sterling is legally prohibited from possessing a firearm. Police records show Sterling had been a member of the Bloods gang, and had a list of offenses including battery, assault, drugs and weapons charges, and owed $25,000 in child support. He was also a registered pedophile, having impregnated a 14-year-old girl when he was 20. The media, by contrast, has portrayed him as a loving father of five.

http://www.allenbwest.com/matt-palumbo/ ... ing-victim

[Sixstrings]

So who is Alton Sterling? For starters, liberals should know he possessed an illegal firearm. As a felon with a lengthy rap sheet, Sterling is legally prohibited from possessing a firearm.

Thank you for the correction vts, that's why I said "someone correct me if I'm wrong," I was going off early news coverage I was watching on tv. I thought I heard he had a gun permit, per your link that's wrong.

My point remains though, about how responsible gun owners should behave if stopped by police.

Clearly "Alton Sterling" was not responsible. The same kind of scenario could have played out, if even it were legal concealed permit. (someone shouts "he's got a gun!" and then the perp is resisting and makes a move that can be misconstrued.. police aren't going to stop to ask if there is a permit for that or not).

All I'm saying here is MORE guns are not the answer -- like with open carry. If half the crowd has an assault rifle slung over their back, and then there's trouble, *police can't even tell who is innocent and who is not*.

[KaiserJeep]

Six, you should check your facts before you post.

As gun sales have risen, crime has fallen. Gun homicides are approaching a 52 year low, for example. Other crimes with guns also way down.


Suicides via gun have modestly increased, especially in the 75+ age group. I credit Obamacare for that one.

Your "gun stores vs. grocery stores" numbers are also suspect. To get those numbers, you would have to add to the real gun stores (52,000) the pawn shops (7500), the sporting goods stores (and Walmart) (17,000), and the gun collectors without stores (62,000). Then you would have to count only "real" grocery stores (i.e. supermarkets)(143,000) while ignoring the 70,000 convenience stores and whatever proportion of the 700,000 gas stations that are also selling groceries. Such cherry picking of data amounts to falsehood, or at least the intent to deceive.

I suspect you used the bogus ABC News numbers that topped my search results - but when you look deeper, those numbers have been well debunked already.

[Loki]

All three charts I posted have the source material identified on the face of the chart for anybody who cares to read. But for the mentally handicapped:

Data are irrelevant to ideologues. They cannot be persuaded by evidence.

What's irrelevant is the data quoted. Only the mental would post it. None of it has anything to do with the tea in China. It's a non sequitur in the current discussion.

Those data don't fit the progressive narrative that the primary problem in interracial relations in the US is white racism, and in the case of the current discussion, white police racism against blacks. The fact that whites are killed by police more than blacks casts deep doubt upon this narrative, hence its out of hand dismissal by progressives like yourself.

The fact that the great majority of interracial violence is committed by blacks against whites--at rates far higher than would be expected based on population--is also deeply antithetical to the progressive narrative about US race relations. If the races were reversed in these data, progressives would be posting it all over the internet demanding immediate action, it would be the lead story on NPR on a daily basis, and BLM activists would have it plastered all over their signs as they march for justice against violent white racism.

BLM started as a response to the Trayvon Martin killing, an example, they claimed, of institutionalized violent white racism. Never mind that his killer was Hispanic mestizo, as is the officer who killed the fellow in Minnesota. And never mind that the great majority of interracial violence is black-on-white.

I would argue that interracial violence by blacks against whites is, in large part though not exclusively, the product of the victim narrative that progressives have promulgated since the 1960s when identity politics and social conflict theory began to dominate leftist ideology. If one assumes lack of achievement by large portions of the black community is due almost exclusively to white racism, it stands to reason that striking back against one's oppressors is a moral act. This is the logic the shooter in Dallas used, and it's the logic used in crimes far pettier than his.

[Shaved Monkey]

This is just paranoia over people having guns by cops
Not too many people get shot by cops when pulled over in Australia because the cop isnt paranoid that you have a gun.
Gun laws are the problem

[Sixstrings]

Six, you should check your facts before you post.

Well it was an honest mistake. So that changes the situation, he's not a "George Zimmerman that argues with the police and is a gun nut type.." but rather, he knew he was illegally carrying, and most likely he was confrontational with the police.

And that whole scene looked bad, his girlfriend adding to the chaos -- police are human beings, guys. ANYONE getting stopped, white or black, is already in an inherently potentially dangerous situation. EVERYONE should be calm.

An officer doesn't KNOW what they are dealing with. It's NEVER a "good idea" to be mouthy with the police, or disrespectful, or anything other than calm and quiet and nice and respectful and cooperative.

In fairness, I don't know all the details about the Louisiana case -- was he shot WHILE handcuffed? If so, that doesn't seem right, but ultimately these things must be up to a jury that hears EVERYTHING and it's not just about one 30 second video and court of public opinion.

In ghetto parts of America -- it's like a prison, and the poor are like inmates fighting with the guards (many of them are ON parole / out of prison / headed back there). Unlike prison though, in the ghetto there's a pawn shop and gun shop on every corner, and there's more guns than people.

Getting at root causes is the answer -- reducing poverty, $15 minimum wage, create more of a healthy working and middle class that have jobs to go to and then guess what, the ghetto would be a neighborhood, and not a prison yard.

Root causes -- more guns than people is one of them, and even MORE military grade weapons sold in the gun shops. (semi auto rifles, body armor, 30 round magizines, or more)

As gun sales have risen, crime has fallen. Gun homicides are approaching a 52 year low, for example. Other crimes with guns also way down.

Yes that's true, all crime is down since the 90s. It's starting to go up a bit, though. Especially New York -- liberals are wrong about things too, stop and frisk works. Without the stop and frisk, crime will go up.

The fall in crime rates is a whole other topic -- I think it's because of the various crime bills back in the 90s, three strikes laws etc. Nobody knows for sure what caused the crime rates to fall, but obviously there is an assault weapons and high round magazine problem right now.

Most of the public will not tolerate this forever, these mass shootings with these same types of weapons and it's always high round magazines, and increasingly they're wearing body armor too.

Your "gun stores vs. grocery stores" numbers are also suspect. To get those numbers, you would have to add to the real gun stores (52,000) the pawn shops (7500), the sporting goods stores (and Walmart) (17,000), and the gun collectors without stores (62,000). Then you would have to count only "real" grocery stores (i.e. supermarkets)(143,000) while ignoring the 70,000 convenience stores and whatever proportion of the 700,000 gas stations that are also selling groceries. Such cherry picking of data amounts to falsehood, or at least the intent to deceive.

Good points. Well this is what is good about a forum, nobody is right about everything, and we can all learn something. I first heard that gun stores figure from one of our Australian members' posts, in one of these threads.

Kaiser -- one fact you can't argue with, is that despite the fact that crime has fallen since the 90s, that's by AMERICAN standards -- it was REALLY high in the late 70s and 80s. But even now the US is the worst in the developed world as far as gun crime goes; France and Germany and Russia and China and Canada, and Australia, don't have anything CLOSE to the gun violence and gun deaths the US does.

Kaiser -- what gun control measures are you FOR? Any, at all? Or none at all? Can you actually spell out what your policy would be, down the line? Open carry, magazine sizes, just how MUCH rapid fire should be allowed on the civilian market? Are you for any restrictions at all?

Felons having guns, you for that or against it? What about islamic terror watch list? What about misdemeanor domestic violence, should those guys have guns?

Where do you stand? Are you just for zero regulation, or can you see this is a bit like automobiles and yes they must be regulated, sometimes those regulations tweaked a bit, in response to, and to reduce, traffic deaths?

[GregT]

(someone shouts "he's got a gun!" and then the perp is resisting and makes a move that can be misconstrued.. police aren't going to stop to ask if there is a permit for that or not).

What's to stop anyone from shouting "he's got a gun!", whether a gun is present or not? Does that in of itself justify shooting somebody multiple times at point blank range?

It would appear to me that some of those who have been hired by us to serve and protect, may have gone a tad beyond the call of duty.

[Loki]

This is just paranoia over people having guns by cops
Not too many people get shot by cops when pulled over in Australia because the cop isnt paranoid that you have a gun.
Gun laws are the problem

Nonsense.

BLM activists' arguments are far broader than police killings. As I just wrote, they began after the Trayvon Martin incident, which involved a "white" non-police officer "murdering" a black man. The BLM movement is protesting institutionalized violent white racism. That such a thing does not exist is irrelevant.

If you care to learn any of the facts about what BLM believes and why they're mobilizing, you can start here. Or you can continue opting for the intellectually lazy position that it's all the evil NRA's fault.

[Shaved Monkey]

How is it nonsense
Its fact
Cops dont fear people with guns people dont get shot
Pretty simple
In Australia if you get pulled over you get out and talk
and the cop doesnt have his gun drawn
In the US you would be shot for that
Paranoia doesnt exist because he knows you dont have a gun