[onlooker]

I think what we tend to lose sight of in focusing on the specifics of individual cases ,the power dynamic of certain relations. When we look at 3rd world citizens, or blacks in this country we see that these groups have a long amassed litany of grievances. Thus, they act out of this conscious and subconscious feeling of being abused or exploited. While I do not excuse violence on the part of any group, I understand for example the indignation of Dohboi at these unjust and unequal dynamics that very clearly paint some groups as the exploited and abused and others as the exploiters and abusers.

[Newfie]

Onlooker,
There is a vast difference between a class or group having grievances and what occurs on an individual basis between two colks in the middle of the night.

As a rule no one awakens and says "Today would be a good day to kill someone." There are amrare exceptions. It is usually some series of circumstances.

But, to address BLM, since the majority, the vast majority of black lives killed is by black men I suggest that, if they truly care about black lives, they should concentrate on healing the community and enlisting police aid in doing so. To blame the police, em masse, is size genius and likely racist.

There are instances of police abuse that require attention. No doubt.

Popcorn........

[onlooker]

"There is a vast difference between a class or group having grievances and what occurs on an individual basis between two colks in the middle of the night." I am so sure Newf. Certainly specific incidents are subject to immediate and direct circumstances that define them. Such as a black person high on drugs or alcohol that resides in a ghetto. These circumstances are sure to garner special attention in a police officers evaluation. On the other hand, when the preconception or assumption already exists on the part of the black person that the police officer does not have his/her best interests in mind that preliminary thought or conviction influences the action of this black person. For example instead of peacefully standing in wait, they may opt to run away from the person they perceive to be a threat, in this case the police officer. Conversely, a police officer or officers certainly are fully aware of a heightened sense of risk in regards certain neighborhoods and certain type of people. It is all very fluid. My point is that tension and suspicion are now inherent in these confrontations between white police officers and black people. This condition is NOT helping to avoid violence or deadly force.

[Newfie]

It's not much different now than it has historically been. When game wardens are fist introduced in PA a bunch were shot by guys who thought they had the unalienable right to hunt without limit.

I head a judge say this. " Why were you arguing with an officer? Your just some old guy. You've got no witness, no photo, nothing. He's got a gun and a pen and everything."

U of Penn professor who was appealing a ticket. The judge, noting the guy was argumentative also noted the PO wrote "argumentative" on the ticket.

Or the young lady in front of a judge for shop lifting, wearing a t shirt that said SHIT HAPPENS.

Some folks just beg for a bad ending.

But I agree, I don't see this ending well for either side. Did I mention I've left Philla am in Canada now?

[Plantagenet]

I think what we tend to lose sight of in focusing on the specifics of individual cases ,the power dynamic of certain relations. When we look at 3rd world citizens, or blacks in this country we see that these groups have a long amassed litany of grievances. Thus, they act out of this conscious and subconscious feeling of being abused or exploited. While I do not excuse violence on the part of any group, I understand for example the indignation of Dohboi at these unjust and unequal dynamics that very clearly paint some groups as the exploited and abused and others as the exploiters and abusers.

BLM and the Ds use individual cases to paint all police as racists who are out to murder black people.

However, the data on all police shootings shows that blacks are not being shot at a rate higher then people of other races when normalized for police contacts due to criminal activity.---The data shows the police shoot everyone equally. The data shows the police are equal opportunity shooters.

NBER WORKING PAPER SERIES
AN EMPIRICAL ANALYSIS OF RACIAL DIFFERENCES IN POLICE USE OF FORCE
Roland G. Fryer, Jr
Working Paper 22399 http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399
NATIONAL BUREAU OF ECONOMIC RESEARCH 1050 Massachusetts Avenue
Cambridge, MA 02138
July 2016

I can understand why Obama and other black demagogues talk up black grievances and gin up racial tensions in the USA----they imagine this will motivate and organize the black community (and help Hillary and other Ds get elected). But if you look at this logically, the problem with police shootings of blacks isn't due to a vast racist conspiracy among policemen to shoot black people----the problem stems from a much higher crime rate among blacks, which brings them into contact with police more, which results in more shootings.

What is getting lost in this current racial hysteria is that many police shootings occur when black criminals assault the police, or even try to take their gun and murder a policeman. This is what Michael Brown did---but nonetheless Obama and BLM caterwauled about the unfairness of Michael Brown being shot and BLM staged a multi-day race riot replete with looting and burning.

But the question remains---what was the the policeman in Ferguson supposed to do instead of shooting Brown in self-defense ??? Let Michael brown murder him?


How is Michael Brown, a hero to BLM activists and a person the Obama White House went out of their way to portray as a victim of police brutality, a victim of anything if he was shot in the act of assaulting and trying to kill a police officer?

[Newfie]

It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise.
Joseph Goebbels

[Loki]

Loki, that was established many pages ago. Have you been asleep?

That doesn't disqualify him from bad research.

Meanwhile: "I have to side with Dohboi on this one"

Thanks, vt. It takes real courage to stand up to these thugs in this context. Best wishes to you in an uncertain future.

So you haven't yet run away with your tail between your legs, despite making an ass of yourself.

You posted a link whining that no one would read it. I read it and responded, falsifying yet another of your ridiculous claims about the evil white supremacy conspiracy. No response. Facts hurt, huh?

The left has gone completely off the rails in recent years, it's truly astounding how out of touch with reality you all have become. I used to pooh pooh right-wing conspiracy theories about the left wanting to destroy society in order to build their revolutionary utopia on its ruins, but now I'm not so sure. It sure looks that way.

Is this you on the left?

[Cog]

The left's goal is to create within the citizenry an absolute dependence on the government to sustain and maintain your ability to function in society. It has worked so well with the black population, it being tried with the rest of us. This is not tin-foil but their stated goal.

Disarmament is a necessary step in furtherance of this goal. Why do you think Obama and Clinton have such a hard-on for gun control?

[dohboi]

It's only racists making asses of themselves here--actually, they don't have to 'make' themselves anything, since they already are.

When I see a coherent response to anything, I'll address--haven't seen anything close to rising to that level so far.

And yeah, when a society has become so corrupt that it's law enforcement officers feel that they are an occupying force that can shoot anyone they want for any or no reason, it's time to shut it down until we can find a better way to organize society.

[Newfie]

How ya gonna do that Dohboi? I cite your students to take up arms against the cops?

[Cog]

doughboy can't accept any facts, statistics, reasoning, or discussion that runs counter to his left narrative of how the world works. Sad really, to be stuck in his own construct.

[dohboi]

"I cite your students..."

Wellll, I might start by using actual English rather than total gibberish, which is more and more all that I seem to see on these fora anymore...

[Whatever]

It's only racists making asses of themselves here--actually, they don't have to 'make' themselves anything, since they already are.

doughboy can't accept any facts, statistics, reasoning, or discussion that runs counter to his left narrative of how the world works. Sad really, to be stuck in his own construct.

You are both stuck in an irrelevant construct. Your "dialog" goes nowhere. The recent global explosion of violence, social unrest, and geopolitical chaos should give you a clue, but neither one of you is willing to accept that we are in the initial stages of a world wide social collapse due to declining total energy. You are both ignoring this fact and instead you just reinvigorate old hatreds. Finger pointing and scapegoating. This response is, of course, is a highly evolved human instinct. Humans are political animals. Our hard wired behaviors guarantee that things will only get worse. As Jay Hanson would ask, how could it be otherwise?

When I see a coherent response to anything, I'll address--haven't seen anything close to rising to that level so far.

There is no need to respond to my comment. It is just a general observation of human nature, nothing personal, and I certainly don't want to argue about it (especially on this thread), but at least I thought you might appreciate reading a coherent post.


---Futilitist

[Newfie]

"I cite your students..."

Wellll, I might start by using actual English rather than total gibberish, which is more and more all that I seem to see on these fora anymore...

INCITE moron. Try posting something thoughtful rather than sarcastic drivel.

How would one know if you miss typed something if all you do is hit emoticons.

Really rather pittiful for an English professor.

But you make my case.

C'est la vie!

[Sixstrings]

Your "dialog" goes nowhere. The recent global explosion of violence, social unrest, and geopolitical chaos should give you a clue, but neither one of you is willing to accept that we are in the initial stages of a world wide social collapse due to declining total energy. You are both ignoring this fact and instead you just reinvigorate old hatreds. Finger pointing and scapegoating.

Sounds like wise words, to me.

Although I'd just note I don't see how declining energy is part of it.. more like declining energy prices. There's a LOT of energy. All that shale out there. A world glut of it. It's TOO MUCH energy, that's got Russia broke, and the ME destabilized.

But also, there's cultural issues and culture clash going on. And then, authoritarianism versus liberal democracy. And rising nationalism in so many places, from Turkey to Europe, to Russia and CHINA (lots of nationalists there) to India too, and some soft nationalism from Japan as well.

I don't see how lack of energy is the problem, though I guess China is starting to lack resources. What they can't take legally through deals, maybe they'll just start TAKING.

So, there's just a lot going on. Rising powers not following international law. And also, culture clashes going on.

Culture clash is definitely a part of it -- look at the problems in Turkey. A MUSLIM country, but they were half secular and half more conservative religious. And now the fundamentalists are gaining on the secularists. So that's just in a MUSLIM country.. now consider the culture clash issues going on with some muslims in Europe, and the US, and Canada. And in India and Bangladesh, and China too -- they've always had muslims, but things are flaring internally there, too.

BUT AS FOR THIS THREAD which is related to racial issues in the US, and what you just said about a "dialog that goes nowhere." I think I agree. And that's why I'm not participating in this thread.

People should get over the labels on this racial issue, black and white. Just stop talking about "race." Just have no labels. This crap does nobody any good.

[SeaGypsy]

ELM fits a lot of what is happening.

[Sixstrings]

I don't know what my point is, other than I'm not a bigot and never will be.

On some things, it's appropriate to take a side, in one's opinion. Like regarding constitutional democracy -- that's important. If there's nothing else that unites Americans, then it's the Constitution and that way of government and society.. it's the framework for everything else.

People may have different skin colors and ethnicities, and religious books or none at all -- but we've all got the same Constitution.

Religious -- I'm not into it, I suppose I'm like an agnostic / atheist really; yet I am a Christian, I will never say I'm not a Christian -- if I HAD to pick a church it would be those groovy Uniterian Universalists. Although, I like a Catholic cathedral too. Or even a really good Baptist preacher.

Mostly, most of all, I'm a secular person -- a humanist. Rational, REASON, not dogma.

I'll never be a bigot about muslims either.. but I do care about NO religious group, or very conservative faction thereof, trying to impose itself on everyone else (in Turkey, it's fundamentalist religious oppressing secular-minded religious, well I'm on the side of women that want to be able to laugh in public).

But oppression can come from Christianity too, be it Baptists or Catholics or anything else, conceivably, denying rights to the rest of society.

The thing about fundamentalist islam though is that there's so much terrorism and violence. So okay, I'm just objective, that thing really is a bit of a problem.

And then, there is the racial issue.

I don't like that "becoming" an "issue." It wasn't in years past, and shouldn't be now. On this question, BOTH sides have some fault and are wrong.

Rudy Giulani is right -- black folks really do have to be careful around the police, because guess what, white folks do too. People must have respect, they must act a certain way in a traffic stop, and they must follow the law regardless of race. The time to make an issue of things is in court, or people can follow up AFTER a traffic stop and make a complaint with the police department.

Black folks have some valid points too, though -- that actually, police are a bit too hard on everybody. It was the post 9/11 militarization of the police.

And then GUN CONTROL comes into play -- so many guns out there, is a big part of the problem. Which of course conservatives don't want to talk about at all, in any shape or form.

Here's one area where some white folks are wrong -- all the jokes about Obama, and the extreme anti Obama vitriol over these years.. look folks, that's racial. That's just my opinion. I know it when I see it, and that's what it has been.

So you see, EVERYONE is wrong.

But what we don't need, is to go BACKWARD in race relations. Other than all the anti Obama stuff, this country really was post racial. Or that's my experience, anyway, my life experience. So let's not go BACKWARD. There's no "ideology" about being black or white, it's just a color, and there never should be an ideology to it.

A lot of this racial discussion -- it's like, BOTH sides are just trying to stir something up and start something that *was not there before*, so that's what I don't agree with.

And I'm being critical of the Left, too. They should just stop talking about race. Not being willing to ever let it go, is what keeps it going -- so just drop it. No more labels. No black, no white, get over it.

[Sixstrings]

Sorry for the above rants / rambles. The poster "Whatever" mentioned global chaos, and that got me on about the state of the world.

And then there's the muslim fundamentalism issue going on, in the world. I was tying my posts lately, all together, in this thread.

It's an issue of what is "bigotry." Is being pro America and pro Western Civ, the same thing as being a Russophobe? Is it bigoted, to not want to lay down to China and have China boss us around? In my posts, I take a side on things some times, but just to note -- I always fully explore things out, and I'm NOT a bigot, whether that's about China or Russia or anything else.

The forum member "Whatever" was right in what he said -- about this circular arguing between Dohboi in this thread, and those on the other side. It's like.. dialog that's not meant to have a resolution.

The Left has their narratives, and it pushes their politics forward.. and the Right has theirs.

On something like race relations issue though, it's just BAD for the country for that to become an issue. Reasonable people should be able to see that, when it's time to just stop being a leftist, or time to stop being an obstinate conservative, and people think about the country.

In my opinion, anyway.. Dohboi in this thread has some things he's wrong about, and some things he's right about.. and Cog and Plant have some things they are right but also wrong about.

Can these two sides come together?

[Hawkcreek]

I've been away from the forum for a while, and since my return this morning I've read a couple of threads that have some posters emphasizing unity over divisiveness.
Maybe we are making a little progress.
I've always thought the whole left/right thing was a constructed artifice, designed to make sure people continue to cheer for their side, rather than look at each individual issue.
I do have the perception though, that in my lifetime, I have personally seen the police change from a group that only occasionally used force to keep the peace, to a group that habitually uses either threats, intimidation, or force to keep the peace. I can understand the anger that is caused by the feeling of powerlessness of the 95 percent.

[dohboi]

Thanks for that thoughtful comment Hc.

Do you think that at some point (or occasionally already) the police can no longer be seen as 'keeping the peace' but rather as actually inciting violence and sparking riots?