[Loki]

That's rich. We get yet another act of terrorism from the Black Lives Matter movement, and the white progressive left blames the victims. Just like in France, if only the French weren't so racist against Arabs, the latter wouldn't be forced to commit atrocities.

What a sick ideology you cling to.

[vtsnowedin]

I don't know what my point is, other than I'm not a bigot and never will be.

On some things, it's appropriate to take a side, in one's opinion. Like regarding constitutional democracy -- that's important. If there's nothing else that unites Americans, then it's the Constitution and that way of government and society.. it's the framework for everything else.

People may have different skin colors and ethnicities, and religious books or none at all -- but we've all got the same Constitution.

Religious -- I'm not into it, I suppose I'm like an agnostic / atheist really; yet I am a Christian, I will never say I'm not a Christian -- if I HAD to pick a church it would be those groovy Uniterian Universalists. Although, I like a Catholic cathedral too. Or even a really good Baptist preacher.

Mostly, most of all, I'm a secular person -- a humanist. Rational, REASON, not dogma.

I'll never be a bigot about muslims either.. but I do care about NO religious group, or very conservative faction thereof, trying to impose itself on everyone else (in Turkey, it's fundamentalist religious oppressing secular-minded religious, well I'm on the side of women that want to be able to laugh in public).

But oppression can come from Christianity too, be it Baptists or Catholics or anything else, conceivably, denying rights to the rest of society.

The thing about fundamentalist islam though is that there's so much terrorism and violence. So okay, I'm just objective, that thing really is a bit of a problem.

And then, there is the racial issue.

I don't like that "becoming" an "issue." It wasn't in years past, and shouldn't be now. On this question, BOTH sides have some fault and are wrong.

Rudy Giulani is right -- black folks really do have to be careful around the police, because guess what, white folks do too. People must have respect, they must act a certain way in a traffic stop, and they must follow the law regardless of race. The time to make an issue of things is in court, or people can follow up AFTER a traffic stop and make a complaint with the police department.

Black folks have some valid points too, though -- that actually, police are a bit too hard on everybody. It was the post 9/11 militarization of the police.

And then GUN CONTROL comes into play -- so many guns out there, is a big part of the problem. Which of course conservatives don't want to talk about at all, in any shape or form.

Here's one area where some white folks are wrong -- all the jokes about Obama, and the extreme anti Obama vitriol over these years.. look folks, that's racial. That's just my opinion. I know it when I see it, and that's what it has been.

So you see, EVERYONE is wrong.

But what we don't need, is to go BACKWARD in race relations. Other than all the anti Obama stuff, this country really was post racial. Or that's my experience, anyway, my life experience. So let's not go BACKWARD. There's no "ideology" about being black or white, it's just a color, and there never should be an ideology to it.

A lot of this racial discussion -- it's like, BOTH sides are just trying to stir something up and start something that *was not there before*, so that's what I don't agree with.

And I'm being critical of the Left, too. They should just stop talking about race. Not being willing to ever let it go, is what keeps it going -- so just drop it. No more labels. No black, no white, get over it.

That all sounds well and good Six but if we were to drop you off alone in the center of Harlem (or whatever the worst neighbor hood in NYC is now) at say 2:00 AM on a hot Sunday morning you would experience emotions right up there with the rest of us redneck bigots. Thinking that you as an individual has risen above racism is just as delusional as the avowed racist that thinks he has the God given right or even duty to be raciest.

[Hawkcreek]

Thanks for that thoughtful comment Hc.

Do you think that at some point (or occasionally already) the police can no longer be seen as 'keeping the peace' but rather as actually inciting violence and sparking riots?

I am sure that in some eyes, the police are already seen as the initiating spark.
It is much more complex than that in my eyes. If the overreach by the police in terms of disrespect of the public and violation of their rights, is matched by the public, then we have reached the point of revolution.
Maybe disrespect is the key word here. When people feel disrespected, they lash out.
The last time I was stopped for a traffic violation I commented to the officer that it was a nice day. He replied, "Shut up unless I ask you a question".
The problem continues to grow on both sides because of that lack of respect.

[Newfie]

Hawk,

Not to quibble with your point but to perhaps clarify.....

I think "beleaguered" is the more operative word.

I believe that most in America feel beleaguered, and the pols reinforce that seeking to manipulate us into voting their way. From the very little MSM I see it seems the public is bombarded with threatening news bits. None of which are actionable. "If it bleeds it leads." This tends to jack people up on all sides.

But it also strikes me that there has been a general militarization of the police through the introduction of more and more fire power and military grade weapons and training. On the other hand the populace is also arming with mil grade stuff. Some because they are crooks, some are scared, some with over grown fantasies, and in some cases some justly. But there is no doubt the country is arming at a fairly steep rate. It's as if our collective unconscious knows a civil war is coming and is prepping.

The various cop reality shows probably do nothing to help the matter. I can see that they lead to stupid fantasies on both sides.

At this juncture I don't see the situation improving. Sadly.

I just dont want to lay on blame on the average joe, no matter his race or religion. I think the roots of this mess are deeper. A failure of our culture.

[Plantagenet]

The last time I was stopped for a traffic violation I commented to the officer that it was a nice day. He replied, "Shut up unless I ask you a question".
The problem continues to grow on both sides because of that lack of respect.

Are you black?

In not, then your post proves the point that police are evenhanded, i.e. they are sometimes rude to everybody. Look---I've had bad encounters with police---I'm sure everyone on this board has. Its just nutso for blacks to say the police are racist because they get pulled over for having a taillight out ---the police pull over everybody who has a taillight out because its a traffic violation to have a taillight out.

Its the same thing with police shootings---a comprehensive statistical study has now proven that police shoot everybody the same, without regard to race, creed, or national origin. The whole BLM rant about the police being racist and seeking out blacks to shoot is just total BS. The police are equal opportunity shooters.

Three policemen were shot just this morning----can you even imagine trying to do their job without being totally keyed up whenever a suspect---even at a traffic stop---has a gun?

I wish BLM people and everyone else would stop complaining so much about their encounters with the police---IMHO BLM is poisoning the whole delicate balance required between police and the citizenry. The police are doing an impossibly hard job---IMHO they deserve our deepest gratitude for the tough work they do for us.

Cheers!

[Newfie]

Dup

[Newfie]

Plant,

Yes....mostly. Some cops are jerks, or a bad morning.

Balance, keep an open mind and even keel.

Each situation is unique.

Tough to do.

BLM is guilty of type casting and profiling, which they rant against.

Let's not fall into that trap.

[Sixstrings]

I've been away from the forum for a while, and since my return this morning I've read a couple of threads that have some posters emphasizing unity over divisiveness.
Maybe we are making a little progress.
I've always thought the whole left/right thing was a constructed artifice, designed to make sure people continue to cheer for their side, rather than look at each individual issue.

Keeping a unified front is part of party politics, and there are in fact different political ideologies, and that's understandable. But blind adherence to ideology shouldn't trump obvious common sense, and obvious necessity.

We should also all remember that George Washington was against political parties. He didn't like seeing them form, when it first happened, and part of his farewell address was warning about the dangers of political parties and too much partisanship.

It's like this -- it makes no sense to let a boat sink, just because the left and right side of the oar crew can't agree enough that they've both gotta give something up and just start rowing, so the darn boat doesn't sink while they argue.

In the D party -- leftists may want things sometimes that are unreasonable, and then they get checked by the moderates / centrists.

In the R party -- a problem is that the moderates all got driven out of the party / silenced. R base calls them RINOS.

Everybody is worried about slippery slopes -- leftists don't like one single thing chipped away, from social security. An area where they are wrong, by the way, would be immigration -- we really shouldn't have total open borders. That's an area where leftists are gonna make the whole boat sink.

Conservatives are big on the 2nd amendment slippery slope -- but they should be reasonable as well, and common sense, and bend a little bit on some particular gun issues. So the whole boat doesn't sink.

What does the NRA want, every town and suburb to be like a failed state banana republic, gangs of armed men and warlords running around in pickup trucks, with semi autos? And maybe, the police have just given up, and just stay in their barracks?

The police aren't being helped by either side -- sometimes it seems like the Left doesn't want them doing their job at all. And then, the right won't do just a little bit of common sense gun control, so that the police can be SAFER while doing their job.

Conservatives just reflexively block every reasonable thing. For example, Clinton saying she wants some federal money and training for police departments -- well right away, the R base flips out about that. That it's "federalizng the police, omg!" Well consider this, folks -- maybe there's a lot of parts of the country where the local county simply doesn't have the MONEY to have a better trained, and as professional as it could be, sheriff's department?

I think that's part of the problem. A lot of the PD's in this country, and especially the rural south, they really just need some more money. Higher officer pay, and more training and professional standards in place etc.

[Sixstrings]

EDIT: delete, I'm posting too much.

Rephrase for brevity.. shortening the post down to the essential thing.. as in most things in life, it takes two to argue. There can't be an argument with police, if one is not arguing.

But just to ramble a bit more to add some practical solutions ideas.. they ought to have the basics of a licensed driver's responsibility of how they are supposed to handle a traffic stop, as part of driver's license tests.

There's so many practical things that could be done. Like Rudy Giulani was saying, in NY where it's a large minority population -- they had a policy of having 50% minority police force.

Also, I think more women in policing would be a good idea. Women are often better communicators, and better at de-escalating situations.

There's probably a thousand ideas that would help this problem going on, right now. Maybe some federal money and training and standards, for rural poor state PD's. Maybe they just don't have the funding. And again, all the root causes.. the South has a lot of poverty, and it's got the highest crime rates, and it's got the loosest gun laws and most guns.

[Cog]

Sherriff David Clarke takes CNN's Don Lemon to the woodshed for a much deserved beat-down. Don Lemon shows his agenda and ineptitude.

Nails the false narrative of cops killing black people and BLM's part in the violence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAu44wVgb58

[Tanada]

I deeply respect Law Enforcement, it is a job I could never do and in most ways it is truly a thankless way of life. Long gone are the days when police/constable/sheriff were carefully selected to keep the average person safe. Quota's and PC standards have lead to a great many people who are not suited for police work being inducted into the career path. Now with these shootings many of the good guys are deciding it is not worth the risk to life, limb and family to stay in law enforcement, degrading things even further.

[onlooker]

Yes, I have to say regardless of where each of us falls on this issue, law enforcement is a bedrock of any civilized society. As such, we the general population must respect these individuals who are doing an important job. Vigilantes and general grudges while they may seem justified must be curtailed for the sake of everyone. I have written already that some over zealous or aggressive policing has been occurring. Nevertheless, if everyone including police and civilians cannot abide by the law, then truly we will end with total anarchy and chaos.

[Hawkcreek]

Yes, I have to say regardless of where each of us falls on this issue, law enforcement is a bedrock of any civilized society. As such, we the general population must respect these individuals who are doing an important job. Vigilantes and general grudges while they may seem justified must be curtailed for the sake of everyone. I have written already that some over zealous or aggressive policing has been occurring. Nevertheless, if everyone including police and civilians cannot abide by the law, then truly we will end with total anarchy and chaos.

It is difficult for some to observe the re-writing of the laws to remove most of the freedoms they had once taken for granted - so they may not consider the actions of the establishment who follow those "new" laws, to actually be lawful. Laws are just a human creation, and when they are corrupted to favor the few, the many will object.
I believe that this will end in total anarchy and chaos. I am not in favor of that, but people have an innate need for a feeling of autonomy. The cycles of repression of freedom are always balanced with cycles of revolution.
It looks to me like our destruction of countries around the world by exporting "democracy", is going to end up with imports of the same creed to the US.

[Hawkcreek]

Hawk,

Not to quibble with your point but to perhaps clarify.....

I think "beleaguered" is the more operative word.

I believe that most in America feel beleaguered, and the pols reinforce that seeking to manipulate us into voting their way. From the very little MSM I see it seems the public is bombarded with threatening news bits. None of which are actionable. "If it bleeds it leads." This tends to jack people up on all sides.

But it also strikes me that there has been a general militarization of the police through the introduction of more and more fire power and military grade weapons and training. On the other hand the populace is also arming with mil grade stuff. Some because they are crooks, some are scared, some with over grown fantasies, and in some cases some justly. But there is no doubt the country is arming at a fairly steep rate. It's as if our collective unconscious knows a civil war is coming and is prepping.

The various cop reality shows probably do nothing to help the matter. I can see that they lead to stupid fantasies on both sides.

At this juncture I don't see the situation improving. Sadly.

I just dont want to lay on blame on the average joe, no matter his race or religion. I think the roots of this mess are deeper. A failure of our culture.

Yes, beleaguered is a good word for this. And I totally agree with your thoughts about our collective unconscious preparing us for hard times to come.
I hope it is a case of our collective unconscious being a little too paranoid, though.
One persons fear can be ignored, while the fear of 100 million should perhaps be given some credence.

[Plantagenet]

Amazingly, after multiple shootings of police officers, Obama is back lecturing the police.

obama-police-can-make-job-being-cop-lot-safer-admitting-their-failures

Obama wants the police to "admit they have a problem". And what is the problem? Why racism, of course. Obama wants the police to admit they are racist.

Meanwhile, not a word from Obama about the high crime rates, including very high gun violence in the black community. Obama has an opening here for a teaching moment to the black community. This would be an opportunity to calm tensions, and maybe to follow the lead of the black chief of police of Dallas, who asked blacks to stop protesting and start working towards a solution by getting jobs on the police force and patrolling their own communities.

But Obama would rather bash the police as racist at the very moment they are literally under attack from enraged/deranged black men who hate the police. This will do nothing but encourage BLM and lead to more racial violence.


YO POLICE...YOU OUT THERE...ADMIT YOU ARE RACISTS!

[onlooker]

Laws are just a human creation, and when they are corrupted to favor the few, the many will object.

Therein lies now our true challenge. Can we put object without violence, can we now change course of entire societies without widespread violence. This is fast dawning as a key question facing the whole of humanity.

[dohboi]

In a capitalist country, the laws--and therefore law enforcement--are there to protect capital--the interests of the wealthiest and of property.

How often do you see 'law enforcement' protecting homeowners from predatory lenders and blocking the latter from confiscating homes when such scams go bad?

How often do you see law enforcement protecting marching workers exercising their rights of collective bargaining from corporate headquarters rather than the other way around.

Many get into the field for all the 'right reasons;' many don't. But the system is set up to turn them into mercenaries hired to keep the oppressed oppressed and the wealthy wealthy.

None of that, of course, legitimizes gunning anyone down in cold blood.

People who do that kind of thing can be characterized as terrorists.

And whoever trained said terrorists in the use of arms and ambush tactics should be held accountable and shut down (not to say bombed into the stone age)...ooops

[Cog]

Cops aren't there to protect the retarded who sign loans without reading them or understanding them. Cops aren't there to protect people trespassing on private property.

If you social justice warriors want to do all of the above, go the police academy, put on a badge and get to work with your program. Otherwise, you should just STFU about things you have no clue about.

[Loki]

The CNN interview with David Clarke, sheriff of Milwaukee County, is well worth watching. It's hard to tell, but I suspect he may not be a fan of Black Lives Matter.

This is a war, and Black Lives Matter is the enemy

Americans watching the news of the murders of police officers in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, are observing a civil war unfold within our borders. A war between rule of law and anarchy-seeking hate.

The murders in Baton Rouge, and before them Dallas, were not acts of domestic terrorism but guerrilla urban warfare against the police - who represent law and order - against the Constitution, and against the American way. The police, the men and women whom I as the Sheriff of Milwaukee County ask to put their lives on the line, are on the front lines of this war.

It’s time to come to the aid of our police, our front-line soldiers, by calling this war, and not terrorism. Avoiding the truth through wordsmithing – the false narrative of the lone-wolf – is contemptible as more innocent officers perish while our politicians hem and haw.

We as a people need to declare that we stand with rule of law, and not with the false tales of the revolutionary Marxist forces, who most recently have rebranded themselves from Occupy Wall Street to Black Lives Matter.

The targeting of police for hate and for murder is by Black Lives Matter and their accomplices are, in actuality, the targeting is our rule of law. Groups like Black Lives Matter, blessed by the progressive left and most recently our own President Obama, need to be exposed and condemned for their true aims: revolution.

Black Lives Matter organizers hold the same values of America’s age-old enemies, who have always fought the ideals of our Constitution and our nation. That they have now taken on as their costume a false concern for Black America only adds to their depravity.

This president will not name Black Lives Matter the enemy. Instead, the White House proactively defended the revolutionary group in the most unfitting of contexts: the eulogies for fallen police officers in Dallas, Texas. He has invited those who speak hate against our rule of law and police officers, in some cases the only element that stands between the violence-plagued communities and their utter destruction, into his fold. The Democrats and their leaders have made their choice known to the American people: utter capitulation.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/c ... -civil-war

Spot on. BLM is not about "social justice," it's simply a rehash of 1960s-style revolutionary black nationalism, aided and abetted by their white fellow travelers on the left. What's old is new again.

Reasonable voices in the black community need to recognize this movement for what it is and denounce it in no uncertain terms. Obama's role in inciting these riots, lootings, and murders has been truly astonishing. It's like Nixon taking sides with the Weathermen.

[dohboi]

(As we watch loki's delusions spin ever further off into the realms of lala! )