[regardingpo]

Leaving the cause of collapse/extinction aside, are those things something you want to happen or not?

By "collapse" I am referring to the collapse of current industrial civilization. We could argue about definitons here, but I think most forum members will understand what I mean.

I'm expecting complaints about the poll not including all possible options but I want to keep it simple.

Feel free to elaborate on anything you want.

[Newfie]

I voted for collapse but not extinction.

Of course I don't want to experienc collapse, but I think a quick fall is the most humanitarian possibility. I can't think of a better possible alternative.

[vtsnowedin]

It would be silly to want your own demise. Are both likely in spite of what we want? That is an entirely different question. And can you or your descendants survive a collapse if and when one happens yet another.

[regardingpo]

I voted for collapse but not extinction.

Did you change your mind? Because there's only one vote at the moment and that's not it. Not complaining, just wondering what's going on.

Also, two posts and only one vote so far lol.

[Newfie]

Yeah, forgot to "submit"! Typical of me!

[Newfie]

It would be silly to want your own demise. Are both likely in spite of what we want? That is an entirely different question. And can you or your descendants survive a collapse if and when one happens yet another.

Collapse is inevitable. Physically impossible to avoid. When and how are unknowns. Who knows who will survive? I don't. All you can do is try to stack the deck for your kids.

[Ibon]

When I was young, already in my 20's, I was so much wanting for collapse to happen. I perceived already then the shallow existence of middle class consumers and when I was hitch hiking across North America or on wilderness trips my convictions only hardened regarding the worthless and diminished lives I perceived the vast majority to be living. I was an arrogant bearded vagabond on the road for a quite a few years, wilderness was my refuge from human stupidity and I was feral and wild.

Now being older, I find this question increasingly irrelevant. I am no longer in reaction to the dysfunction, let whatever is going to happen unfold, my opinions have no bearing, and either do those of my fellow humans.

This is so much not in our control that I am growing increasingly weary every day of pondering this topic, preferring to celebrate the natural world and all its wonders.

I still think humans are a plague on the planet, a global parasite, a rogue invasive species, so, like Newfie, I still do see collapse sooner being better than long and drawn out human overshoot that exponentially increases human suffering, species extinction and the further degradation of our biosphere.

What we want to happen though is in the end of the day totally irrelevant to the forces unfolding beyond our collective ability to meaningfully mitigate.

There is a strong sentiment of surrender in my current world view. This could be age related.

[regardingpo]

I agree with you Ibon, that what we want to happen is irrelevant in terms of affecting the outcome of events. But it is something that is rarely mentioned in the Peak Oil and Climate Change community.

It is often assumed that those who believe in PO and CC want to prevent those things from happening and "save the world" or something to that effect. I don't think that's a valid assumption. I was inspired to make this topic by a recent discussion about John Michael Greer, who in my opinion can't wait to see the collapse happen, because he thinks it would lead to some sort of druid eco-topia.

[regardingpo]

Americans just voted YES on collapse, YES on extinction of the human race.

[Pops]

check

[Subjectivist]

What is the bsession with death and dying around this place?

[regardingpo]

What is the bsession with death and dying around this place?

Are you seriously asking why a forum dedicated to a doomsday scenario is full of people who talk about doom?

[Ibon]

What is the bsession with death and dying around this place?

Existential angst requires objects to fixate on.

[Subjectivist]

What is the obsession with death and dying around this place?

Are you seriously asking why a forum dedicated to a doomsday scenario is full of people who talk about doom?

I do not see Peak Oil as a doomsday scenario, I see it as a serious challenge to our civilization.

Unfortunately a lot of people who think like I do ran away from this site because of the constant doom drumbeat that took over the narrative.

High price DOOM!

Low prices DOOM!

Moderate prices DOOM!


The obsession with doom and cherry picking every story to get the doomiest result is unhealthy and counter productive. If all is DOOM why bother to get out of bed in the morning and live?

[Cog]

I learned a long time ago on this board not to get in the way of a man and his doom. He won't appreciate it and it will just make him angry. Doomers are not satisfied by personally wallowing in their doom predictions, they are hell-bent on making you as miserable of a creature as they are.

So what is the answer? Enjoy life and your family. None of the many doom predictions that have been forecast on this board have ever come true. So you got that working for you.

[Newfie]

Past performance does not guaranteed future results.

There was a time when many in this board though room was around the corner. Thankfully we were wrong.

That there will eventually be some collapse seems obvious. It's a matter of when and how. Both likely unpredictable. Sort of like Russian Roullet.

I see no down side in understanding and prepping, in moderation, for hard times. I have no difficulty y with staying knowledgeable, like a farmer watching the weather.

Do I want doom? No.

Would humanity be better off if collapse happened sooner than later? Almost surely.

They are very different questions.

[DesuMaiden]

It doesn't matter whether or not I want a certain inevitable outcome to happen. Since the outcome is inevitable, it will happen whether or not you like it. And that outcome is the collapse of industrial civilization and then afterwards, the extinction of the human race. The collapse of human industrial civilization is imminent. It is right in front of our eyes, yet most people remain blissfully ignorant of it. The extinction of mankind, nobody knows when that will happen, but it will happen eventually. I do think there will be reoccuring cycles of rise and fall of future civilizations until the carry capacity of the planet for humans becomes so diminished that humans eventually become extinct. I doubt we will learn from our mistakes because virtually all of the important scientific information regarding the rise and fall of civilizations (and information in general) is stored digitially. And digital information, contrary to popular belief, is very ephermal. Once the electrical grid goes out and rare earth elements become too scarce to extract and process (along with many other factors, which I will leave out of this discussion, because there are too many details to explain for here), the manufacture and distribution of electronic devices becomes impossible. So all of that useful knowledge and information you have electronically stored in computers, harddrives, websites, the Internet and etc become impossible to access in the not-to-distant future. In other words, most information we have compiled over the centuries will become lost for future generations.

Even if we were to somehow able to store and pass on the information necessary to prevent the collapse of future civiilizations for a post-collapse civilization (which I doubt is possible due to the aforementioned reasons), it would make little difference because most people would ignore it, and revert back to their genetic baseline of overshoot and collapse/die off until the carrying capacity diminishes to the point where humans become extinct.

Like Jay Hanson said on his website dieoff.org, it doesn't matter what is said or done before the collapse because collapse is inevitable. And what about the survivors? After a few generations, all lessons learnt about why and how collapse happened will be forgetten, and we (humans) will revert to our genetic baselines again. So we will continue to ravage the natural world until there is nothing left to plunder and then suffer the consequences of overshoot and dief-off/collapse.

I wish the outcomes weren't so bleek, but sadly once you realize what is actually going on around the world, you will realize that it is hopeless trying to save humanity, let alone modern civilization, because humans were destined to destroy themselves and most species around them.