[onlooker]

Since, I have been here on Peak Oil.com, I have been privy too much interesting, enlightening and engaging discourse and ideas. From different perspectives we have argued about why we have reached this point as a species, what responses we may be able to muster, what needs to be done, what no longer is under our control etc. I now am hoping to delve with all of you deeper into the psychological and social directions we have taken and will take. Our world has a history of much acrimony and conflict, of injustices and unequal treatment of each other. I am suggesting that if and when we can perhaps build a better world it will not be simply because we can self regulate ourselves and be more circumspect and display more foresight. It will transcend these factors and be ultimately about us learning truly to live in harmony with each other. I feel that much of the misery and unhappiness throughout our history is self inflicted upon each other. So, we can solve all the material tangible problems that are required to allow us to live in a sustainable manner within the parameters of the Environment but can we ever truly live well among and with each other which is just as important as living in harmony with nature? This I feel is an important question because our insecurities,phobias and patterns of unstable and reckless behavior I believe can to a large degree be traced to our uncomfortable and tension filled relation with each other which in turn is borne out of our primitive urges and emotions Thoughts?

[Newfie]

My thoughts?

We're screwed. Flat line learning curve over any meaningful time scale. Perhaps some near extinction event will force us to evolve. Perhaps not, I think that more likely. Perhaps we won't survive the event.

I have t much hope for humanity.

What hope I have is to help my kids survive and thrive no matter what comes. That ain't looking so hot. Time will tell. But I'm retired and having a ball!

[Ibon]

The hope lies in the simple fact that humans are as adaptive as cock roaches and rats.

[AdamB]

Since, I have been here on Peak Oil.com, I have been privy too much interesting, enlightening and engaging discourse and ideas. From different perspectives we have argued about why we have reached this point as a species, what responses we may be able to muster, what needs to be done, what no longer is under our control etc.

We need to lessen our dependence on petroleum.

Some of us have. Others appear to just enjoy the death of forests and sea mammals while happily getting a buzz on.

Whether there is the opportunity is doubtful.

Some of us have already taken the opportunity, and converted opportunity to accomplishment. We have invited others to join us, but the resistance among the buzzed and eco-system destruction set is high.

We don't have enough readily available energy stores (in the form of coal, oil nuclear and alts) to both maintain the current system, and develop another concurrently.

Such was the claim during the peak oil days as well. But we did it anyway, and are continuing to this day, regardless of what the buzzed and eco-destroyers think.

Places like Ivanpah having come online since the bad old peak oil days.



For those who appear to be stuck in the oil peak oil funk, I recommend nothing more than looking around at the changes that peak oil a decade or so ago wrought, and then chill out already. Those who aren't myopic are already well on the way to solving the problem for you, whether you like it or not.

From sea to shining sea....

[Ibon]

For those who appear to be stuck in the oil peak oil funk, I recommend nothing more than looking around at the changes that peak oil a decade or so ago wrought, and then chill out already. Those who aren't myopic are already well on the way to solving the problem for you, whether you like it or not.

From sea to shining sea....

As I stated we are as adaptive as cockroaches. Before the naysayers chime in about the scalability of wind and solar please note that this is not so relevant. Lifestyle changes will follow, population will decline through the following generations, consumption habits will change, there WILL be some draconian consequences that will cull Kudzu Ape back to a sustainable population. All of this does not spell the end of industrial civilization but rather the correction of the current human overshoot.

I share Adam B's optimism of the future but am sanguine about technology permitting this to be pain free or permitting us to maintain current cultural values.

[Newfie]

As usual I politely disagree because I don't see a feedback mechanism to encourage us to improve. Might be right, might be wrong. You and I will never know. No point arguing. Hope you are right though.

[Ibon]

As usual I politely disagree because I don't see a feedback mechanism to encourage us to improve. Might be right, might be wrong. You and I will never know. No point arguing. Hope you are right though.

Yeah we will never know will we, it is an event for our progeny to witness and work through. Consequences and constraints at some point should become powerful enough to challenge the dominant cultural values. The question if these forces will bring out the best in us or accentuate the worst is of course not clear or predictable. That is where history perhaps does act as a guide. Shouldn't we expect a mixed bag of enlightened and primitive responses?

As time goes on I find myself much less interested in projecting into the future with any sense of confidence. I am satisfied to leave it an unsolved mystery.

[Newfie]

A'yup!

[AdamB]

I share Adam B's optimism of the future but am sanguine about technology permitting this to be pain free or permitting us to maintain current cultural values.

There is no requirement that our ongoing transition be pain free. It certainly wasn't during and after the real energy crisis of the 1970's, and it wasn't a decade ago when peak oil hit and Who Killed The Electric Car became the same company that began pumping out affordable peak oil transport solutions.

And current cultural values? I'm not even sure what that means...an iPhone for everyone? More political correctness? Millennials will be forced to develop a work ethic?

Not sure peak oil past, present or future has much to do with what passes for American "culture" nowadays, it sure didn't do much but slow down and make more efficient massively overweight and liquid fuel consuming monsters anyway.

[AdamB]

As usual I politely disagree because I don't see a feedback mechanism to encourage us to improve.

Oh that one was solved AGES ago!

[Plantagenet]

As time goes on I find myself much less interested in projecting into the future with any sense of confidence. I am satisfied to leave it an unsolved mystery.

I'm just the opposite. I want to see how it all turns out.

---will CO2 emissions keep going up?

---will sea level keep going up?

---will all the trees in Yosemite die from the drought?

---when will the Arctic Ocean go ice free?

----will an abrupt climate reorganization happen?

---what will happen when Ghawsr peaks?

---will Russia start fracking shale on a large scale like thevUS?

---will Obamacare implode or will Hillary save it?

---how will Brexit turn out?

---how bad will the next recession be?

---will Hillary ever get the US out of Iraq Libya Yemen Syria Afghanistan etc etc

AND

--when will I get to Malta Corfu Ravenna, Helsinki Egypt Ethiopia Tasmania Bolivia Easter Island Vanatau etc etc

The future is incredibly interesting to me right now

[Ibon]

The future is incredibly interesting to me right now

All of these forces and their impact on human overshoot and most importantly how this molds culture moving forward is no doubt an engaging topic, one that I have spent decades at times obsessed over.
The need however to precisely define the trajectory has been replaced with the understanding that the future is undefinable.

[Ibon]

I share Adam B's optimism of the future but am sanguine about technology permitting this to be pain free or permitting us to maintain current cultural values.

There is no requirement that our ongoing transition be pain free..

In fact, pain is a requirement for any meaningful transition.

[Newfie]

I share Adam B's optimism of the future but am sanguine about technology permitting this to be pain free or permitting us to maintain current cultural values.

There is no requirement that our ongoing transition be pain free..

In fact, pain is a requirement for any meaningful transition.

Adam,
The graph is exactly the problem. We have been facing that graph for hundreds of years. Venice had the same problem with trees for its fleet, to name one. Our solution has always to search for more, newer, bigger, better stocks, take by for sand deplete them. Or collapse.

I'm not seeing the vertical part of the Learning Curve here.

[onlooker]

I'm not seeing the vertical part of the Learning Curve here.

Yep, in the sense that rather than learning we seemed to have forgotten ancient strictures and acumen about how to live in harmony within oneself and thereby with others and with Nature. And so our restless pathology has led us on an insatiable mad dash to acquire, conquer, possess, and live a hedonistic lifestyle. Didn't Gurus, Philosophers, Monks and Sages warn us about succumbing to our urges and impulses. So our collective quest to achieve must be tempered by a calm disposition and some humility

[careinke]

I'm not seeing the vertical part of the Learning Curve here.

Yep, in the sense that rather than learning we seemed to have forgotten ancient strictures and acumen about how to live in harmony within oneself and thereby with others and with Nature. And so our restless pathology has led us on an insatiable mad dash to acquire, conquer, possess, and live a hedonistic lifestyle. Didn't Gurus, Philosophers, Monks and Sages warn us about succumbing to our urges and impulses. So our collective quest to achieve must be tempered by a calm disposition and some humility

I don't buy the belief that we are destined to follow that lifestyle, we have a brain. Not being a religious person, I use some core ethics to guide my actions:

1. Integrity is everything, without it you are nothing.
2. You are responsible for yourself and your children, until they can take responsibility for themselves.
3. Take responsibility for not messing up the earth, instead work to enhance it.
4. Help others, who are willing to learn, take responsibility for themselves.
5. Control population and consumption so the surplus can be reinvested into 3 and 4 above.
6. Force is only justified for defense.

These seem to work for me.

[onlooker]

Those principles are quite admirable Care. Notice how they conflict with a purely selfish hedonistic lifestyle

[Ibon]

Those principles are quite admirable Care. Notice how they conflict with a purely selfish hedonistic lifestyle

Perhaps the hope lies in the upcoming confrontation between this hedonism and the virtues Careinke spelled out. When constraints create hardships therein lies the battleground between hedonism and virtuous sacrifice. This will be an epic period of volatile change and we are at the doorstep.

Hedonism has ruled for decades which defined hopelessness. At least with volatility virtue has a chance.

[onlooker]

Yes, I agree. Funny how this seems somewhat analogous to the US political landscape. I mean in the sense that the Republicans embody a sort of selfish attitude given their reluctance to pay taxes, their advocacy of libertarian values or the virtue of individual freedoms and a keen defense of the capitalistic profit incentive. With Democrats at least in principle diametrically opposed to some of this