[Tikib]

Of all the things that could have wiped out industrial civilization, being destroyed by lack of oil is quite frankly pathetic, we knew in the 1960's about this problem when limits of growth was written and yet we didn't even start any sort of any energy transition until Germany started building wind turbines in the 00's.

I don't particularly value my life, because I agree with Andy Warhole, that life is "like being kidnapped and sold into slavery". But most other people supposedsly do and yet here we are about to start eating one another.

[Tanada]

Of all the things that could have wiped out industrial civilization, being destroyed by lack of oil is quite frankly pathetic, we knew in the 1960's about this problem when limits of growth was written and yet we didn't even start any sort of any energy transition until Germany started building wind turbines in the 00's.

I don't particularly value my life, because I agree with Andy Warhole, that life is "like being kidnapped and sold into slavery". But most other people supposedsly do and yet here we are about to start eating one another.

This is simply not true. In the 1970's France produced the bulk of its electricity from fossil fuels. By 1985 they had successfully transitioned to Fission to produce 70+percent of it. Then the price of oil fell like a rock and they lost all incentive to do the things necessary to extend that energy system into other sectors of their economy.

[SeaGypsy]

Since there's killing on, why waste meat? Cannibalism has been around a very long time, with a few brief episodes last century where it became rare- enlightenment age meets oil age, but not long enough to honestly say it had died out. Slavery probably even older & more ingrained.

To my mind where solar etc come into their own, is when they can stop being expected to replace the function of the redundant system.
Stand alone capacity is of little value on a currently reliable grid, but with costs coming down, folks wanting to downshift & powerdown with the mod cons at home, the feasibility to do so opens up possible lifestyle options unthought of not long ago. Leaves another source of calories to take care of....

[onlooker]

Humans can be intelligent if they act consistent with rational analysis and prudence. However, if they are beguiled or led astray by emotions and urges then they can act contrary to wise forethought and thinking.

[Newfie]

I think humans are intelligent, slightly more intelligent than the great apes.

The confusion is the difference between PERSONAL and SOCIAL intelligence.

Personal intelligence has the possibility of being great.

Social (collective/hive) intelligence is pretty primitive.

Tikib has a great point. Warming is a "known known", yet we do nothing. How stupid!

[Outcast_Searcher]

I think humans are intelligent, slightly more intelligent than the great apes.

The confusion is the difference between PERSONAL and SOCIAL intelligence.

Personal intelligence has the possibility of being great.

Social (collective/hive) intelligence is pretty primitive.

Excellent points.

I was going to ask how stupidity could create MRI's, find hundreds of exoplanets, reliably send space probes throughout the solar system that gather a lot of fantastic data for many years, build and maintain a reliable GPS network and the devices that use it, etc.

And I was going to point out that OTOH, wars, riots, slavery, and BAU demonstrate about as much intelligence as a colony of bacteria.

So it's all about CONTEXT. We ascended via the law of club and fang (see Jack London, "The Call of the Wild". That mode doesn't work so well in a large social context.

[onlooker]

That mode doesn't work so well in a large social context.

The beehive mentality analogy is good. However, humans can be much more. The common problems and challenges of the world we live in together invite and demand all humans to utilize their powers of reason but also their higher more benevolent nature. It is characteristics endowed to us by Nature as much as aggression and more primitive urges and desires. So, it is up to a group of humans to collectively agree that their community and society stands for certain ideals and ethics which are consistent with living in harmony with each other and Nature.

[SumYunGai]

Of all the things that could have wiped out industrial civilization, being destroyed by lack of oil is quite frankly pathetic, we knew in the 1960's about this problem when limits of growth was written and yet we didn't even start any sort of any energy transition until Germany started building wind turbines in the 00's.

I don't particularly value my life, because I agree with Andy Warhole, that life is "like being kidnapped and sold into slavery". But most other people supposedsly do and yet here we are about to start eating one another.

Humans are the other other white meat.

Being destroyed by a lack of oil was inevitable. There is simply no physical way to get enough energy from all other sources combined to replace the energy we are now losing from oil. And there never was. Alternatives were always a non-starter, but many believed in them anyway. That was certainly pathetic.

Humans are barely intelligent enough to see what is coming. We certainly had no way to ever be intelligent enough to defy the laws of physics.

[Tikib]

Your probably right, but as someone else stated, france did best with electric trains and nuclear.

[dissident]

The hysterical, superstitious primitivist campaign against nuclear power has exposed civilization to collapse. Hollywood and its retarded movies (China Syndrome) will go down in history as the enablers of the anti-nuclear hysteria. The Greens killed France's nuclear power development. They stopped the Superphenix program which was right on target to produce a generation of truly safe reactors which would deal with the nuclear "waste" problem. Now it is Russia that is the only country left that is developing closed nuclear fuel technology and molten metal breeder reactors (China is buying this tech and not developing it, in spite of what is claimed in various youtube videos, the Japanese test reactor is some sort of stupid joke, and the US can't even build facilities to burn Plutonium).

[Tikib]

Yea more fission would have given us more time but its difficult to see how we could have avoided collapse entirely.

[SumYunGai]

Yea more fission would have given us more time but its difficult to see how we could have avoided collapse entirely.

We can not avoid collapse because our civilization requires the constant growth of energy supplies just to keep pace with the growing population. The constant growth of energy supplies is obviously impossible, therefore civilization is unsustainable. At some point, collapse must be the outcome. How could it be otherwise?

[Tikib]

Quite. Some sort of population control would obviously be neccessary as well.

[SumYunGai]

Quite. Some sort of population control would obviously be neccessary as well.

Hypothetically speaking, I suppose that is true, but practically speaking, implementing such a plan is not really possible. It is not generally in our nature to volunteer for population control, so a great deal of force would be necessary. This would create a lot of chaos. And we couldn't really afford it anyway. How much precious energy would be required to complete the population control plan? Besides, take away all those people and what would be left of the economy for civilization to continue to run on? No more economies of scale. How will the small remaining population get their energy after they are done controlling everyone else to death?

No matter how you add it all up, there is no way to avoid an uncontrolled collapse.

[Tikib]

China had 1 child policy for 20 years.

[onlooker]

Yep, we are too far along and its too late to alter collapse events. Unsustainable population, unsustainable civilization and a host planet becoming ever more inhospitable to higher life forms truly makes Collapse inevitable

[Tikib]

obviously

[Rod_Cloutier]

I was thinking today at work, that I knowingly live a lie. I know about peak oil, that net EROEI is falling fast. I know about catastrophic climate change, global deforestation, acidifying oceans, and on and on. But, each day I go to work and pretend that none of this will affect me directly.

It suddenly occurred to me, that although I know that I'm living a lie, the vast majority of people around me don't know that the game is almost up. The masses expect business as usual forever, growth forever, and more, and they are running their lives based on that expectation.

I feel bad enough that I have to lie to myself just to go through the motions of working, eating, and having a lower middle class lifestyle. I feel that although I might be able to adapt to the vast social, economic, and cultural changes coming, because I am expecting them, the masses of people who are still trying to climb the career ladder and get the bigger house and shinier car have missed this completely- they will be stunned when the bubble bursts.

Then what ?

[Tikib]

Theres no preparing for it, probably about 95% of the world population will die. Its okay though they were all going to die anyway.

[Newfie]

Agreed.

So the next logical question becomes; what do we do with this information?