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Impossible - wind and solar

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby SumYunGai » Fri 11 Nov 2016, 13:14:45

ROCKMAN wrote:I agree: really f*cking tiresome. "To do that would take an energy source (obviously other than oil itself) that has an ERoEI of over 50."

So one more f*cking time: where does the EROEI 50+ bullshit come from? And don't say Tikib for two reasons. First, that's not an answer. Second, explain my YOU think Tikib is correct. You keep posting a lot of words yet haven't provided one bit of DOCUMENTED support for the statement. If you or Tikib can't do that then there's no reason to continue this discussion.

I agree. There is no reason to continue this so called discussion. The only reason it happened in the first place was because I could see that you were misinterpreting what Tikib said. I tried to help clear up your misunderstanding. I have no idea if Tikib is correct or not, and I don't really care. The entire discussion is irrelevant since civilization is already in collapse.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 11 Nov 2016, 14:27:27

I'll refer everyone to the thread on energy efficiency: http://peakoil.com/forums/energy-efficiency-beats-renewable-energies-report-t59048.html
...and to my 9th post in that thread which lays out one possible future where we could in fact reduce our energy dependance to a fraction of our present demands, reducing oil and gas imports to zero, and making it credible that we could base our lifestyle - pretty much unchanged - on 100% renewable energy sources.

The technology exists NOW and we don't have to wait for anything. BEVs and Smart Grid and solar roofs and wind turbines all exist already, and as a technologist I can tell you that all we need is the will to renew the infrastructure of our civilization to be less energy intensive. We don't need any new magical energy sources, instead we need to reduce our dependence upon energy from the sources we have, and then retire our fossil fuel sources in an orderly and efficient manner.

Perhaps my 25 year timeline was too short or even too long. We entered space and went to the moon and back in less than 10 years, after all. I tend to think, all we need is the will and a political leadership that unites us and wants to succeed.

Perhaps you have a better idea. The key is not to state how impossible it is to depend on feeble renewable energies, the key is to reduce our energy requirements until we can indeed use renewables.

Wind and Solar ARE NOT IMPOSSIBLE IF YOU THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX YOU KEEP YOUR BRAIN IN.
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Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby Sys1 » Fri 11 Nov 2016, 15:24:51

Of course wind and solar can replace oil.
During middle age, we used only wind and solar energy and everything was fine.
Of course, no smartphone, no car, no roads, no skyscrappers, no multi billions of humans, no planes, no trucks, no drinkable water, scarcity of food, no hollidays, no Medicare, no school, no retreat, no money, no clean home, no heat at home, children dying during birth (with mom) and no climate change.
Everything was fine.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 11 Nov 2016, 15:43:52

Sys1 wrote:Of course wind and solar can replace oil.
During middle age, we used only wind and solar energy and everything was fine.
Of course, no smartphone, no car, no roads, no skyscrappers, no multi billions of humans, no planes, no trucks, no drinkable water, scarcity of food, no hollidays, no Medicare, no school, no retreat, no money, no clean home, no heat at home, children dying during birth (with mom) and no climate change.
Everything was fine.


A very modern view of the past, life was ugly, short and brutal.

Of course if you made it to 21 you had a pretty good chance of making it to 63 because half of all people died between stillbirth to age 5 and another twenty percent died before becoming 'adult' at 21. Those who did pass through the gauntlet of childhood illnesses and made it to adulthood had the same share of joys and sorrows as are always the case with the human condition. They did not miss smart phones and cars and flying to destinations a thousand miles away to vacation because such things were only the stuff of fairy tales. If we lose all those things then a generation or three down the road they will again be the stuff of legends and won't make a wit of difference to the generations being born at that time.

As for food and water, nobody would have been alive to pass on their genes to the next generation if their had been no potable water and severe food shortages were the norm and not the exception. Also roads were a pretty common part of life. Not twelve lane paved super highways mind you, but roads that went from here to there and allowed most wagons or cargo carts to travel thusly.

You also completely ignored water power, which was much more significant than wind for most of history. The reason so many towns across the world have names like 'Bedford Falls' is because they were advertising they had a significant enough water flow rate to power a mill or even several mills.

They also had heat and cooking and cleaning. Usually wood or dung fueled, but occasionally based on animal fats.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 11 Nov 2016, 20:10:07

T - Have you ever gone camping with pure city folks: hystertical and very sad at the same time. This thread brings to mind how some folks act as if life as they know it ends because their Internet goes down for 24 hours. As we've discussed many Americans really don't understand real deprivation. And I'm not talking Mosul style but more like daily intermittent electricity for months. Not that such situations will develop soon but several decades down the road who knows?
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 11 Nov 2016, 21:41:27

SumYunGai wrote:This is becoming very tiresome. The point is pretty simple and easy to understand. According to Tikib, wind and solar do not have a high enough ERoEI to replace oil, because an oil replacement must be able to generate liquid fuels to fully replace oil. To do that would take an energy source (obviously other than oil itself) that has an ERoEI of over 50. Your answer has nothing to do with any of this.

Tikib is just a poster here and not an Authority on anything. Address my example with facts and examples from reliable sources or STFU.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby SumYunGai » Fri 11 Nov 2016, 23:04:35

vtsnowedin wrote:
SumYunGai wrote:This is becoming very tiresome. The point is pretty simple and easy to understand. According to Tikib, wind and solar do not have a high enough ERoEI to replace oil, because an oil replacement must be able to generate liquid fuels to fully replace oil. To do that would take an energy source (obviously other than oil itself) that has an ERoEI of over 50. Your answer has nothing to do with any of this.

Tikib is just a poster here and not an Authority on anything. Address my example with facts and examples from reliable sources or STFU.

WDYBIOYA, vt. You are arguing with no one. Maybe you didn't get the memo, but I don't really care about this topic. Please carry on.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby StarvingLion » Sat 12 Nov 2016, 04:15:14

The technology of wind and solar does not work and never will. Its about government rent seeking which pstarr and the rest of the worthless "innovators" in California and Texas thrive on. Wind and Solar are scams. Nothing else to say.

Moltex is a crap design. They don't know what they are doing. Thats okay, nobody here seems to know what they are doing either. Certainly the resident oil experts are in way over their head and basically have nothing to offer.

SumYunGai is correct. The US $ system is collapsing. You can't save a Fakebook society.
Outcast_Searcher is a fraud.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby careinke » Sat 12 Nov 2016, 04:35:19

StarvingLion wrote:The technology of wind and solar does not work and never will. Its about government rent seeking which pstarr and the rest of the worthless "innovators" in California and Texas thrive on. Wind and Solar are scams. Nothing else to say.


Are you kidding? I use passive solar to heat with, solar to grow my biomass, solar for a lot of my lighting, solar to sequester carbon.... Actually, when you think about it, everything , with the exception of nuclear power, is solar powered. The nice thing is it is also scalable. :)
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 12 Nov 2016, 09:34:51

Care,
It's impossible to maintain the status quo, let alone growth, with renewables.

That's the difficulty with these kinds of discussions...hidden assumptions. Many respond envisioning today's world. You respond with the vision of the world to come, lowered consumption and lowered population, as you noted elsewhere.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 12 Nov 2016, 11:47:34

ROCKMAN wrote:T - Have you ever gone camping with pure city folks: hystertical and very sad at the same time. This thread brings to mind how some folks act as if life as they know it ends because their Internet goes down for 24 hours. As we've discussed many Americans really don't understand real deprivation. And I'm not talking Mosul style but more like daily intermittent electricity for months. Not that such situations will develop soon but several decades down the road who knows?


ROCKMAN Let me be honest, it has been a decade since my last camping trip but I never once made the error of going with city folks. Unfortunately given my physical condition I can no longer enjoy the connectedness with nature that comes from primitive camping with a campfire of dead and down harvested wood followed by a hike in the fresh forest air.

In fact the last time I went camping a state park ranger was surprised to discover me harvesting dead and down firewood, as is the rule, instead of using pre-cut bundles purchased at the local convenience store as is the case with nearly all the 'camping enthusiasts' these days. He actually stopped on his patrol to ask me about it! Given that was a decade ago I wonder if any of the 'camping enthusiasts' out there even know how to use a hatchet any longer?
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
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Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 12 Nov 2016, 14:35:13

T - Unfortunately same here. But I do surprise some folks I meet on hiking trails. With my 14" wheels on my powerchair I can handle most of those in Texas. Except muddy trails: I haven't looked for chains so I just spin in mud. LOL. And sometimes I'll get an envious look or two when near trail's end: with a 14 mile battery range my "energy level" is the same as when I started. LOL. I could offer some of the younger women free "lap rides" but my wife doesn't share my twisted sense of humor.

But it can be little things like running a cold camp that bothers some folks too much. After 40 years of periodically eating Vienna sausage and potted meat on saltines while on a well site missing hot meals is no biggie. Especially with a big bag of Oreo's for desert. If not a junk food addict when you start eventually enough well site you'll get there.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby careinke » Sat 12 Nov 2016, 15:58:07

Newfie wrote:Care,
It's impossible to maintain the status quo, let alone growth, with renewables.

That's the difficulty with these kinds of discussions...hidden assumptions. Many respond envisioning today's world. You respond with the vision of the world to come, lowered consumption and lowered population, as you noted elsewhere.


Of course you are right, but I don't want to maintain the status quo, It's killing us.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 13 Nov 2016, 16:48:36

"I don't see solar as a solution to the peak oil dilemma, not for humanity...". Nor do I. At least in the short to mid term. But decades down the road, at least for Texan humanity, it might be. If the alts and our lignite can keep supplying our electricity demands maybe we'll see a lot of F-150 EV's rolling down our roads. LOL.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 13 Nov 2016, 17:20:14

"...instead of the usual garbage bags and laundry." Actually it's worse then that: the vast majority of PU's I see in Houston have NOTHING in the bed. So actually plenty of room for batteries with solar panels mounted on top of them. Seriously. If someone wanted to convert their ICE truck to electric they have plenty of room for the battery pack. Just need to swap out the rear shocks and springs: standard F-150 are set to only carry "pussy loads". LOL.
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Re: Impossible - wind and solar

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 13 Nov 2016, 19:31:41

Imagine if you will a future where every American drives just 25 % of the miles they drive each year now. Not impossible or even difficult if you have time to make the adjustments necessary. That should save some twelve million barrels of oil a day.
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