[ROCKMAN]

"...if Trump embargoes Cuba again, then it's possible Russia may just re-open the old naval base they had. " First, the embargo is still in place and will stay in place unless Congress changes the law.

Russia has always had the option for Cuban bases. It had voluntarily pulled out not too many years ago. And from last month:

In the clearest confirmation to date that Russia may scrap its decision to withdraw from the two countries more than a decade ago, Deputy Defense Minister Nikolai Pankov told lawmakers in Moscow on Friday that the military is revisiting the issue, without providing more details, according to the state-run Tass news service. Responding to a question about the plans, President Vladimir Putin’s spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said the global security situation has become “rather fluid” after “substantial changes” over the past two years.

A move to reclaim the bases, abandoned shortly after Putin came to power in 2000, would further expose fault lines of the Cold War standoff with the U.S. as the two former rivals now duel over the 5 1/2 year war in Syria. While Russia withdrew from Cuba and Vietnam, it kept its small base in the Syrian port of Tartus, the only naval facility it’s maintained outside the former Soviet Union.

[Sixstrings]

@Rock
Russia's considered re-opening the base to full operations, in recent years. It's better for the US to keep things friendly with Cuba, if it were embargoed then they'd just invite China or Russia in. And all we'd be doing is just hurting regular Cuban people.

EDIT: post shortened. There's too much else going on with developments, to get too deep into the Cuba issue.

Voice of America has a positive article about Cuba:

Raul Castro Changed Cuba After Brother Stepped Aside

Often portrayed as a pragmatist in recent years, he provided counterpoint to Fidel, who was usually characterized as more hard line. ...

By the time Raul permanently took over the country, his wife had died (in 2007) and his four children were grown. He began reshaping Cuba's socialist programs, allowed businesses to be owned by citizens, loosened travel restrictions and foreign investment, brought in his own people to staff his cabinet, and set limits on presidential terms, which would legally force him to step down in 2018.

He and U.S. President Barack Obama announced their intent to renew diplomatic relations in 2014 after 54 years.
http://www.voanews.com/a/raul-castro-changed-cuba-after-brother-stepped-aside/3612772.html

I'm actually not a expert on the Cuba issue. From what I've read -- it seems to be a mixed situation. It's not easy to just say "that's a bad regime." But this isn't up to the US anyway, we can't just go regime changing places that aren't even bothering their neighbors, or causing any problems in the world.

All the US could do is just shut down the embassy and stop trade and travel, which really wouldn't be helping anything.

Cuba would still have relations with the rest of the world. Canadian and European tourists, instead of American.

If there's anything really bad about Cuba right now in 2016, then someone go ahead and post it and talk about it.

From all the recent news though, it seems like they've been treating Americans well and it's a friendly government and they were nice when relations were restarted recently.

Cuba's in the process of improving its relations with the US, and isn't bothering their neighbors or causing any problems in the world.

[Sixstrings]

Donald Trump Condemns Fidel Castro as “Brutal Dictator”
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/11/26/donald_trump_takes_to_twitter_to_react_to_news_of_fidel_castro_s_death.html

I honestly don't understand why Trump says Castro was "a brutal dictator," yet he praises Vladimir Putin, calling him "a strong guy" and defending Putin to no end.

This is BAD foreign policy, actually:

Priebus: Trump will void Cuba deal unless Castro regime moves to concessions

Priebus repeated that Cuban leader Raul Castro, the brother of Fidel Castro, will have to “meet our demands” for such a deal to continue.

He cited such issues as Cuba opening up its economic markets and putting an end to religious oppression and other human rights violations.

“These things need to change,” said Priebus, making clear that the continuing Castro regime has to at least show signs of moving in those directions.

“This isn’t going to be one way,” he said. “I think the president-elect has been clear on this.”
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/27/priebus-trump-will-void-cuba-deal-unless-castro-regime-moves-to-concessions.html

Relations just restarted, just a year ago. It's not smart to start pushing hard on Cuba, at this time. It's not like Cuba is the biggest problem we got right now.

AS FOR HUMAN RIGHTS -- Trump shouldn't be selective about that.

What about Russia? What about the tens of millions of people in east Europe, that are scared of Russia?

For goodness sake, Germany and much of the world has been saying they're worried that TRUMP is gonna violate the human rights of AMERICANS.

Trump should take some time out to make our American blue states feel better, and America's minorities, and start caring about the rights of democracies in Europe.. the Baltics, West Ukraine, Poland and Germany.

“This isn’t going to be one way,” he said. “I think the president-elect has been clear on this.”

Why hasn't Trump ever said THAT, about Russia? That would have been nice to hear at some point, that "this isn’t going to be one way" with us just giving things to Putin.

Rather, all I've ever heard about from the Trump campaign is all the things they want to do for Russia and give to Putin -- I've never once heard any talk about what is expected from Russia, in return.

[Plantagenet]

Donald Trump Condemns Fidel Castro as “Brutal Dictator”[/b
I honestly don't understand why Trump says Castro was "a brutal dictator,"

Its because Castro was a brutal dictator.

[b]Priebus: Trump will void Cuba deal unless Castro regime moves to concessions
Priebus repeated that Cuban leader Raul Castro, the brother of Fidel Castro, will have to “meet our demands” for such a deal to continue.

He cited such issues as Cuba opening up its economic markets and putting an end to religious oppression and other human rights violations.

“These things need to change,” said Priebus, making clear that the continuing Castro regime has to at least show signs of moving in those directions.

“This isn’t going to be one way,” he said. “I think the president-elect has been clear on this.”
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/27/priebus-trump-will-void-cuba-deal-unless-castro-regime-moves-to-concessions.html

Relations just restarted, just a year ago. It's not smart to start pushing hard on Cuba, at this time.

The US is engaged in negotiations over normalization right now. Its always smart to start with a tough negotiating position, so there is plenty of room to compromise and still get a fair deal.

Lets all give thanks that trump isn't as dumb as Obama, who would start negotiations by giving in all to the other side's demands, and then wait for more demands so he could give in to those as well.

cheers!

[ROCKMAN]

Six - "...if it were embargoed then they'd just invite China or Russia in." I suppose it must be the MSM hype that causing folks to think there were some recent significant changes to Cuban/US relations. As pointed out above the embargo is still in place. Maybe getting the word from someone a little further up the food chain, like the French president, will get the f*cking FACT across. LOL:

The US trade embargo on Cuba should be lifted “definitively” following the death of former Cuban president Fidel Castro, French president Francois Hollande has said. The embargo was introduced in the 1960s as punishment for communist Cuba’s support for the Soviet Union and is still in place more than 50 years later.

Folks keep throwing "normalization" around like it's means something significant. It ain't. In July 2015 the US agreed to open a embassy in Cuba. Other then some travel restrictions being loosened since that time, some new economics ties being established and the U.S. removinb Cuba from its state sponsors of terror list in May nothing else has changed. And since 2013 most Cubans are eligible to leave with just a current passport and national identity card, like residents of other countries. Likewise long before President Obama's great "normalization" efforts US citizens could send $US to family and friends in Cuba.

And again about Russian bases in Cuba: been there, done that and ain't paying $200 million f*cking $'s to keep doing it with some crappy equipment. LOL:

"The radio-electronic center in Lourdes was created in Cuba in 1967. But in 2001, the Russian authorities closed the center to improve relations with the US. It was seen as a sign of goodwill with America when it was shaken by the Sept. 11 terror attacks. However, there may be another explanation. After Moscow stopped granting multi-billion-dollar subsidies to the Cuban regime, its authorities required from Russia $200 million for renting the Lourdes base, which was a big enough sum that it was unacceptable for the top Russian military leadership. On top of that, the equipment in Lourdes was outdated and didn’t meet the basic requirements to effectively intercept radio signals in the U.S. Today intelligence data is gathered primarily through satellites, not through ground-based stations."

Essentially with respect to Cuba the President-elect hasn't enherited anything more meaningful from the current administration then some office space in Havana. LOL. President-elect Trump for the most part has a clean slate when in comes to dealing with the Cuban govt. That and an R controlled Congress.

And China? A little late to worry about it hooking up with Cuba:

"Since the White House embarked on restoring relations with Cuba—an effort culminating in President Barack Obama’s historic visit next week—the U.S. has run up against China’s efforts in recent years to build an economic relationship with the country. China’s trade with Cuba grew by 57% in the first three quarters of 2015 to $1.6 billion, rebounding from an usually weak period the year before, according to Beijing. Direct flights from Beijing to Havana started in December. And China is leading efforts to build Cuba’s Internet infrastructure.

You have Chinese influence really across the board,” said Richard Feinberg, a former U.S. diplomat who studies the Cuban economy. China is Cuba’s second largest trading partner behind Venezuela. China plans for a cluster of resort properties that are estimated to be worth $460 million, including a luxury housing project near the Marina Hemingway that will house Chinese tourists."

Since President Obama enjoys vacationing in warm climates perhaps the Chinese will comp him a nice suite after he's out of office. In fact perhaps they'll set up adjoining rooms for President Obama and Secretary Clinton. LOL.

[Sixstrings]

Its because Castro was a brutal dictator.

Well yes that's true. But I don't understand the need for a blunt tweet like that. Is this how US foreign policy is gonna go? Is it gonna always be that blunt and on twitter, Plant?

What happens when it's a problem with North Korea? This stuff could start wars. It's not usual foreign policy to just get on twitter and be so blunt and inflaming.

I would wonder how CUBANS in Cuba feel about it. Yeah, Castro was an awful dictator, but it's like a mixed situation in Cuba and latin america.

I don't know, I just don't think it was necessary nor diplomatic. Everybody knows the history with Castro. It didn't need to be tweeted.

But again -- why doesn't Trump ever criticize Vladimir Putin? To the contrary, Trump says Putin "is a strong guy" and he defends Putin all the time.

He cited such issues as Cuba opening up its economic markets and putting an end to religious oppression and other human rights violations.

Fidel hasn't been in power for the last ten years. Raul has. Did Trump cite anything bad that the current government's been doing?

The Voice of America article made it sound like Cuba's been trying to improve.

The US is engaged in negotiations over normalization right now. Its always smart to start with a tough negotiating position, so there is plenty of room to compromise and still get a fair deal.

Well I don't disagree with that, but, it just seems odd that it's on twitter and it's the day after the guy died. I don't know, they could have waited a while. Look, we all dislike Fidel Castro -- but fact remains, he was a head of state and x number of Cubans living in Cuba might be grieving.

Fidel was already in the past, for ten years now. Relations were improving.. the Cuban government has been nice to the US and to American tourists. Why start out sour, like this?

I don't think we've even had any problems from Cuba since like the 1980s, have we? The state of relations was pretty good, this is a sensitive situation with Cuba.

Lets all give thanks that trump isn't as dumb as Obama, who would start negotiations by giving in all to the other side's demands, and then wait for more demands so he could give in to those as well.

He could have negotiated with Cuba in private, and after taking office. It ain't like it's a pressing situation with Cuba.

And, just out of respect to the Cuban people, in Cuba.

P.S. -- long story short, Jeb Bush or Hillary Clinton would have had a more diplomatic statement.

[Plantagenet]

Is this how US foreign policy is gonna go? Is it gonna always be that blunt and on twitter, Plant?

I have no idea what Trump will do next.

However, Personally, I don't mind trump tweeting out his opinion---its kind of refreshing and transparent after all the deceptions and secrecy of the last eight years.

What happens when it's a problem with North Korea? This stuff could start wars. It's not usual foreign policy to just get on twitter and be so blunt and inflaming.

You may well be right---it could be disastrous. However, it might also deter wars by giving the bad guys pause.

For better or for worse the American people wanted a tough guy as president after eight years of Obama-the-wimp. We'll just have to see how it all works out.

I would wonder how CUBANS in Cuba feel about it. Yeah, Castro was an awful dictator, but it's like a mixed situation in Cuba and latin america.

?????

Cubans are celebrating in the streets of Miami that Fidel is dead. I really really doubt they are offended by Trump's tweet saying Castro was a dictator.

HAVE A GREAT DAY 6. I APPRECIATE YOUR CALM INTELLIGENT APPROACH TO DISCUSSING ISSUES.

Cheers!

[Sixstrings]

I checked the Trump twitter. He most recently did a 7 tweet rant about the recount.

[ROCKMAN]

"I just don't think it was necessary nor diplomatic. Everybody knows the history with Castro." Apparently not everyone...including President Obama who publicly stated: "History will record and judge the enormous impact of this singular figure on the people and world around him." Opinions may very but given the last 50+ years of documented history I suspect not many will need to wait to see what future historians will have to say.

And how has life been under Raul? Might want to ask the "political prisoners he has locked up: "A few hours before Obama landed on the island on March 20, Cuban authorities arrested more than 50 Damas de Blanco (or Ladies in White) dissidents who were demanding increased human rights. This round of crackdowns was actually part of a weekly ritual — arrest, release and repeat — and part of the reason why tallying the exact number of political prisoners is so difficult."

Perhaps President-elect Trump will embrace some of Raul's management style and "invite" the publishers at the NY Times to a free vacation at some federal facility. I hear Gitmo is nice this time of the year. LOL.

[Sixstrings]

Russian foreign ministry "blasts" Donald Trump:

Donald Trump blasted by Russian foreign ministry over Fidel Castro criticism

Vladimir Putin even celebrated the billionaire tycoon's victory with a glass of champagne and sent Trump a congratulatory telegram.

But it now appears as though the outspoken President-Elect has upset his new friends following his criticism of Fidel Castro.

Now, a senior official in the Russian Foreign Ministry has attacked Trump for his comments.

Alexander Schetinin, the director of the Latin American Department of the Russian Foreign Ministry said it would remain on Trump's "conscience".

Schetinin said Trump's comments were "disrespectful" to a recently deceased person.

He added that Castro was "a great politician of our time" who is "worthy of respect for all", RIA Novosti reported.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/not-friendly-now-donald-trump-9346074

Oh my goodness.. I can't believe I saw things the same way as the Russians!

But JUST about the "Trump's comments were "disrespectful" to a recently deceased person" part, it just wasn't cool / diplomatic.. out of respect to the Cuban people (IN Cuba).

And also, it could be that various world leaders are sensitive about the Fidel thing, and also some leaders / people in Latin America may be.

[Plantagenet]

I hope Cuba builds a big shrine to Fidel like they did for Che. The Che memorial is a great tourist attraction. If they put s Fidel shrine in there the tourist draw will grow. And if they build a gondola so you could ride between the two shrines it would be killer.

[Sixstrings]

President Obama who publicly stated: "History will record and judge the enormous impact of this singular figure on the people and world around him." Opinions may very but given the last 50+ years of documented history I suspect not many will need to wait to see what future historians will have to say.

Notice that it's not really a compliment -- "singular figure" and "history will judge."

It can read two different ways -- now THAT is diplomatic! But it's also the kind of neutral tone a documentary or some such, would use.

Guys, this is about DIPLOMACY. Fidel was a global figure. We're not at war with communism anymore. There's nothing to be gained by jumping up and down yelling at the deceased.

All that can be gained by insulting now, would just be hurting our diplomatic relations with CURRENT world leaders.

Overall -- Cuba is not on the USA's s--- list. It's a cooperating country, relations were restored, and Cuba hasn't been bothering any of their neighbors and under Raul it's been nice to the US and Cuba doesn't cause any problems.

We can't CHANGE all the nations in the world and just demand they be how we WANT them to be. China's still communist, too. And there are kingdoms, and dictators.

We should never get confused about our values, but that doesn't mean we can't respect a different society and how they are.

The last worst thing Cuba did to us, was I think some cessna type planes were shot down in the 1980s? I can't remember, or what the circumstances were. But that was all a long time ago. Fidel's been retired for ten years, and for a year we've had a good start to relations and the Cubans haven't been rude or crossed the US in any way, so why start out like this with insulting and bashing them?

Cubans, *in Cuba*, are in mourning. They don't need Uncle Sam yelling at them right now, rather, the US should be offering reassurance and assistance in a time like this. Since our foreign policy goal is to IMPROVE the relationship, right?

Now, Russia -- that's another story. Russia's a flat out adversary and has been messing with us and all our allies for many years now. If Russia were to change and nothing happen for ten years, then okay, it would be time to forgive.

CUBA hasn't done anything to us, for ten and twenty years. It was time to forgive, and we finally did.

We can't FORCE them to change their society and system, it's not our place to do that.

If there were ever mass demonstrations and things like that, then that would be different, but there's not.

And how has life been under Raul? Might want to ask the "political prisoners he has locked up: "A few hours before Obama landed on the island on March 20, Cuban authorities arrested more than 50 Damas de Blanco (or Ladies in White) dissidents who were demanding increased human rights. This round of crackdowns was actually part of a weekly ritual — arrest, release and repeat — and part of the reason why tallying the exact number of political prisoners is so difficult."

It's a different society, Rock. We have things about our society that others find awful -- like all the guns, and police shootings, and capital punishment.

Now, if Cuba were trying to make the US communist.. and if communist Cuba were pushing in its neighbors and causing all kinds of trouble and bother -- then that would be different, then they'd be a threat.

But they're not a threat. They've got good relations with the world, and us. And it's not our place to tell them how to be and what kind of society to have.

Perhaps President-elect Trump will embrace some of Raul's management style and "invite" the publishers at the NY Times to a free vacation at some federal facility.

It would be interesting to see a complete documentary about Cuba, just a full picture of how things are there -- the good, and the bad.

Here's my view about this -- the US should be supportive when a people WANT democracy and there's mass protests and a place is getting unstable and falling apart.

But if it's stable and that's just their society, then that's their right and we sort of have to respect that.

A fact to remember is that things were very oppressive, under Batista. A place has to be pretty messed up to have a successful communist revolution, to start with. And the Chicago mob was in Havana, with the casinos and all that. And American companies had control of so much and it was a right wing banana republic, and not really fair to the Cuban people.

So, we got a long mixed history with Cuba, and we have some blame too.

Cuba was getting back in our camp again -- there's no good reason to start yelling at them. Take it slow. Show respect. And take it easy, we had a wall for 54 years and we just restarted relations one year ago.

[ROCKMAN]

"...a different society, Rock. We have things about our society that others find awful -- like all the guns, and police shootings, and capital punishment." True with one big exception: we elect the assholes that run our country. LOL. Communism??? Hell, Castro was no more a communist then then Stalin...or Al Capone...or Putin is today. LOL. Castro controlled the country for half a century by killing or imprisoning opposition. Our mistake was not playing along with his game like so many other dictators and usurpers the US has supported in the past.

If Castro hadn't played the anti-US card so loud and long the US could have worked with him on an economic level IMHO. The embargo, which despite his rhetoric, President Obama might have ended years ago when the D's had control of Congress. If President-elect Trump is truly a great deal maker he and Raul need to cut a deal behind closed doors: the US drops the embargo and becomes Cuba's economic buddy. In return Raul starts the process of establishing a free and VISIBLE election system. Ole Raul got nothing to lose: at 85 yo his game is over so who's the next dictator going to be? In truth we don't really know Raul is running Cuba: there may be a man behind the curtain calling the shots.

Neither Russia or Venezuela are in a position to play Big Brother. If the President-elect wants some real cred for his legacy he could help the people of Cuba to achieve the robust society they've always had the potential to build. And yes: besides Venezuelan the Rockman has a few Cuban beans in his pot. LOL.

And it was two US private aircraft on an huminatarian mission looking for fleeing Cuban refugees stranded at sea. Castro ordered his MIGs to shoot them down. Their families got a wrongful death civil judgement against the Cuban govt but I doubt they collected a penny.

[Sixstrings]

The tone from the GOP seems like unnecessary, out-of-the-blue bullying. Fidel wasn't even in power, he's been retired 10 years.

The Cuban government has been doing a good job working with the US for a year now, they've been gracious, they're nice to American tourists and things were going along fine and getting better.

So now between Trump elected and then Fidel dying, suddenly there's Republicans all over CNN acting like we've got some kind of national crisis about Cuba and like something's gotta be done right now right this second.

Trump aide: Cuba has work to do to 'meet our demands'
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/27/trump-aide-cuba-has-work-do-meet-our-demands/94510578/

Does that not sound like bullying?

Cruz, Rubio want Trump to dial back U.S.-Cuba relations
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/cruz-rubio-encourage-reevaluation-of-us-cuba-relations-231857

Trump aides say Cuban government will have to change
http://www.dailyjournal.net/2016/11/27/us-trump-cuba/

If Republicans undo all what Obama has done, then it's going to screw with US business that's already invested a lot. Hotels built, and US airlines have already invested in Cuba:

Trump cloud hangs over Cuba

Cuba hard-liners in Congress expect Trump to ground flights along with rolling back other regulatory changes. Some experts, however, say it won't be easy for him to undo some of the changes that have garnered popular and corporate support at home.

Major U.S. airlines, which invested significant time and resources competing for a limited number of routes, have already started flying to Cuba. And a number of businesses and hotels have begun popping up on the island in anticipation of a travel boom.

“It's not going to be easy to all the sudden say, 'that's illegal,’ ” said Madeleine Russak, communications director for Engage Cuba.
http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/307443-trump-cloud-hangs-over-cuba

[Cog]

The communist regime of Cuba has murdered and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of their own people and you want to get all warm and fuzzy with them. Is there any other mass murderers you want to make friend with while you are at it? This is no tropical paradise with free health care. Its an island gulag courtesy of the Castro brothers.

[Plantagenet]

Trump aide: Cuba has work to do to 'meet our demands'

Does that not sound like bullying?

No. ---It sounds like a smart negotiation tactic to me.

Its stupid to start negotiations from a position of weakness. You have to begin demanding more then you are willing to settle for, so both sides can appear to be giving in a little and reaching a compromise.

The days of obama-the-wimp starting negotiations by giving into every demand the other side has are over.

Cheers!

[onlooker]

http://mediaroots.org/cuba-revolution-s ... relations/
"Leader of the Cuban revolution, Fidel Castro, has died on his own terms, after surviving at least 638 assassination attempts by the CIA. Unlike the glorification of brutal theocratic leaders like Saudi Arabia’s late King Abdullah, the establishment will be giving no accolades to Castro.

Capitalism’s defenders vociferously attack Cuba as a freedomless dystopia, while downplaying the country’s amazing achievements under socialism.

You cannot look at Cuba in isolation without understanding the long history of economic and political sabotage in the country on behalf of the U.S. Empire. From the crippling embargo, to the sponsoring of political dissent to the creation of an immigration policy designed for defection, the U.S. government has done everything in its power to undermine Cuba’s success.

Despite its severe economic restrictions, Cuba’s system of free preventative healthcare is one of the best in the world. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the U.S. and a near perfect literacy rate of 99%.

The country’s philosophy of medical solidarity trains anyone to become a doctor, and has sent the world’s largest contingent of medical professionals to Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Guinea. In fact, more than 50,000 Cuban healthcare workers are currently operating in 66 countries around the world.

Because it provides basic amenities like food, shelter and healthcare for all citizens, Cuba also has one of the lowest crime rates in the Western Hemisphere.

Cuba is not perfect, yet far from the “police state” it is painted to be. I didn’t see one cop when I was there, and people spoke freely about their discontent with the government. There was even a government sponsored art space that was full of cutting, self-reflexive political commentary."."

[Plantagenet]

Castro's life of luxury

Castro diverted much of Cuban's wealth to himself, becoming Cuba's richest man, and one the richest people in the world. Castro lived like a king---and why not? The Castros were now de fact the new royal family of Cuba, with Fidel being the King. Raul Castro, solely by his birth right of being the brother of the King became the heir apparent to the Kingdom.

inside-fidel-castros-life-of-luxury-and-ladies-while-country-starved

While average Cubans earned $14 a month and were starving, Fidel lived a life of luxury, with 20 separate luxury homes including a private island. Several years ago Forbes estimated Fidel Castro's personal fortune at almost a trillion dollars---it must be much more now.


What a fraud.

[onlooker]

Plant the personal shortcomings and excesses of the Castro family does not detract from the fact that they did do good things for the Cubans. At least it should not. Greed is a universal characteristic and at least Castro and even some of us here point out that greed is not a good thing especially in a world with so much want and so many people in need.

[dissident]

Castro needs to be given credit for not subjecting Cuba to the mass murder that occurred under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. It is a grotesque distortion of history to claim that Castro was no better or worse than Batista. By the standard of the death squad junta regimes of Latin America, Castro's regime was benign.

People have this tiresome mental reflex where they assume that if not for what they have now, they would be living the good life. Cubans could have had a progression of Batistas one worse than the previous one. Cuba would have remained a 3rd world toilet and a bordello for Yankees. At least with Castro the vast majority got out of poverty (lack of two cars and assorted consumer junk is not poverty).